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Old 12-30-2017   #41
raid
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Sonny: I will keep my M8 and M9, and I may add a Pen-F maybe.
B&H has this deal (for you): Pen-F plus 17mm lens.

Price: $1,698.00

Instant Savings: $350.00

You Pay: $1,348.00.

Will you get the camera in silver or black?
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Old 12-30-2017   #42
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Raid,

I'm ordering in black - though I may have to wait as they are backordered. I'm also ordering the 3.5/30mm Macro for an additional $149.99 ($150 off). I'm toying with the idea of a M4/3 to Leica M adapter from CameraQuest, as well.

Also - my real name is Mike. Sonny Sichtstein is just an alias - a play on Sunny 16.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
Sonny: I will keep my M8 and M9, and I may add a Pen-F maybe.
B&H has this deal (for you): Pen-F plus 17mm lens.

Price: $1,698.00

Instant Savings: $350.00

You Pay: $1,348.00.

Will you get the camera in silver or black?
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Old 12-30-2017   #43
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Thanks, Mike, and good luck with your purchase. You are getting a nice selection of useful lenses. If I had $2000 to burn, I would have had more options open to me now. I just hate selling any equipment at all, and I have lots of stuff.
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Old 12-30-2017   #44
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Here's some shots I took today with an early 1900's cine lens on M 4/3..off of a WW1 movie cam..got the cam for 20 bux at a flea market..with 2 Cooke and 1 Zeiss lens..this lens is the Cooke..it is so tiny...hazy...and fun to use..when I want to do something different..fluffy stuff...I use this lens..which does a circle on M 4/3. First the lens...then the pics..







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Old 12-30-2017   #45
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Thank you, Emile. This is interesting. Old lenses can give different results.
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Old 12-30-2017   #46
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I have not read the whole thread, so apologies, if I repeat someone else:
Next to my Leica (M10, currently) and a few other cameras, I have a Pen-F. It is my "Togo-camera", that is always with me, when I leave the house and I don't have one of the others with me for a particular reason.

I am and always was a fan of the FT- and now µFT-System. They are (even with their weaknesses in some areas) great cameras.

The 14mm Panasonic is almost always on the camera, since this combination makes a really small, pocketable street-shooting setup, that is also capable of much more. I own a few other lenses, but have greatly reduced my collection, since I want µFT as a supplement to what the other systems are for and don't want to have doubled systems.

One lens, that I can really recommend and that is criminally underestimated most times is the Olympus 45mm/f1.8 - the quality of that lens is just amazing. I don't really often use 90mm-equivalent, but if I do, I prefer this one to any Leica, Fuji or other system 90mm FOV, that I have ever used. If you search a good lens and don't have it already. Buy it. It is cheap, small and light. The designer must have sold his sold to the devil, when he designed the lens, otherwise I can't explain...
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Old 12-30-2017   #47
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So you use mostly the 14mm lens and the 45/1.8. More support for the Pen-F d.
I have a very good 25/1.4 Lux (Panasonic) as my only high quality M 4/3 lens. My best "tele" is the Zeiss Planar 50/1.4 for the Rollei QBM system. I don't have a high quality wide angle lens for a M 4/3 camera. This is what I need to get. The Olympus 17/1.8 may be a good choice.
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Old 12-30-2017   #48
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I like my Ricoh GXR module, IQ is excellent, 1.5X crop factor, and able to adapt almost any lense.
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Old 12-30-2017   #49
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Is this a 10 or 12MP system?
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Old 12-30-2017   #50
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I must admit that there are days when I just cannot face trying to manually focus with my M8 (or my anticipated subject matter just does not lend itself to it). That damn viewfinder has such tiny magnification and is so relatively poor by Leica M standards that my old eyes are just not up to it anymore, especially when I want to use a longer / faster lens for subject separation. On those days I will pick up my OMD EM5 which is easier to manually focus or even better my NEX 7 which has focus peaking. While I seldom rely solely on focus peaking for critical sharpness, it does help get close to correct focus before I magnify the image and complete the task of focusing using my eyeball. If stopped down a little though the focus peaking can be used on its own most days though I am still not happy with the result. And on days when I really can't bother I just mount an AF lens on one of the above mirrorless cameras. There is no doubt in my mind that they do supplement Leica M cameras. And there is no doubt in my mind that we have been spoiled by digital camers - the latest ones in particular are so good that I find I can get pin sharp images I seldom dreamed of back in the day.

I also often mount Leica lenses (and other rangefinder lens like Voigtlander and Canon) on my mirrorless cameras which perform nicely with them. My favourite go to longer lens right now is a Summicron 90mm f2 (Canadian version) that I got recently. It looks as if it was built for the OMD EM 5 and is just fun to use.
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Old 12-30-2017   #51
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I have a silver 90/2 Summicron with built-in hood (Made in Canada), and I love using this (heavy) lens!
The digital cameras are spoiling us, Peter. My SWC "reminds me" to also use film.
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Old 12-30-2017   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
So you use mostly the 14mm lens and the 45/1.8. More support for the Pen-F d.
Yes, it is a good camera, even with its few bad design-choices.

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Originally Posted by raid View Post
I have a very good 25/1.4 Lux (Panasonic) as my only high quality M 4/3 lens. My best "tele" is the Zeiss Planar 50/1.4 for the Rollei QBM system. I don't have a high quality wide angle lens for a M 4/3 camera. This is what I need to get. The Olympus 17/1.8 may be a good choice.
Technically the 17mm/f1,8 is a good lens, I think. I had it twice, because I "see" in 35mm. However, I also sold it twice... I never was really satisfied with the lens itself and with its result. I can't even say why, I just don't feel the magic with that lens. Sadly there is no really good alternative in the system: I really hated the Panasonic 20mm (both versions) and the 15mm seems to be a cheapo, that is no match for the 17mm. Maybe the 17 Pro would be it, but that is also big and heavy (im terms of µFT, of course...). I would love, if Panasonic made a 17mm like the 14mm, same size and weight, even f2,5 would be okay...
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Old 12-30-2017   #53
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The Canon FD 17/4 may work well here. It would be a slow 34mm lens then. It is not light or small.
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Old 12-30-2017   #54
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I did not want to suggest to skip the Oly 17mm/f1,8... It just doesn't fit me. Maybe you would love it. I solved the problem be using 35mm strictly on Leica only. There I have all I want in that focal length.
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Old 12-30-2017   #55
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When my M9-P went off to have its sensor replaced, I got a Pen-F as a stand-in for the Leica.

I've got an EM-5II and a set of primes (Zuiko 12/2 & 17/1.8, Lumix '25/1.4 Lux), the Pen-F was an easy choice for a straight up street shooter.

The Oly isn't a Leica, but it's a fine camera and the 20MP sensor is a gem.

Now that the M-P is back, I think I'll sell the Pen, as the OM-D is my favorite of the two, despite its older & smaller sensor.

Some Pen-F pix (most with the 17/1.8):


The Forrest Girls Exalt, Intersection Of US136 And 610 Ave, W Of Vesta, NE by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr


Leilani And Her Eclipse Mask. Intersection Of US136 And 610 Ave, W Of Vesta, NE by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr


Fano Alt de Facto TC6 and Rick Kelly Bowery Pine Tele, August 10, 2017 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr


The Merry-Go-Round, April 06, 2017 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr


Baseball Practice, April 06, 2017 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr


Angry Return, April 01, 2017 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr


Mollie, March 19, 2017 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr


Mollie, March 19, 2017 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr
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Old 12-30-2017   #56
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Nicely done. I will look for your ad.
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Old 12-31-2017   #57
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I would go for it Raid... it's a decent upgrade and it'll feel a little nicer in the hand compared to your other m43 bodies.
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Old 12-31-2017   #58
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I am building up a "case" in favor of the Pen-F, and I am slowly but surely getting there. I already had "that discussion" with my wife about it. I am thinking next of which lens to get that is 35mm or wider (in 135 format) that is amazingly good ...
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Old 12-31-2017   #59
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Quote:
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In my case, I would ask if your evaluations of M 4/3 photography would be different if you almost only shoot in sunny situations where no high ISO is needed. ...

...
Not at all. Although it would be at the bottom of my list.

Perceived image quality is directly related to the inhererent raw file's signal-to-noise ratio. One factor that determines the total light (signal) you can record is the square root of sensor area.

Sometimes S/N is very useful in "in sunny situations".

In bright light. some regions important to the photograph could be in shadow. A common example would be someone's face well-shaded by a hat brim. If the the person's eyes are important to the photograph, you have to selectively push this shadow region in post-production. Or, you could have used a powerful strobe or even a strategically placed passive reflector.

Important shadow regions in well-lit scenes regions are underexposed. Their S/N is lower than the brightest regions (usually the sky) that are well exposed. The perceived image quality of shadow regions is affected. This has nothing to do with ISO amplification after the shutter closes. In fact at a camera's base ISO (e.g. 200), there is no ISO amplification.

The problem in a low-light scene is the same as shadow regions' in a bright-light scene. The problem is underexpose compared to the maximum possible exposure of the sensor when the shutter is open. The problem is S/N. With most contemporary cameras ISO amplification does not significantly increase noise levels. The purpose of ISO amplification is to increase the signal levels after the shutter closes. The purpose of increasing ISO is to compensate for unavoidable underexposure. Every time you think about high-ISO, think about low signal instead.

To be complete, the inherent sensor area S/N disadvantage of m4/3 compared to APS-C is small.

Also, often shadow regions in sunlight are not important and are best left as shadows during post-production rendering. Now their lower S/N is irrelevant.

Finally, in bright light (base ISO) much of the image area is well-exposed. Only shadow regions, and deep shadow regions in particular, are significantly affected decreased signal levels. In low light (when signal amplification is applied after the shutter closes) much more, if not all, of the image has a lower S/N ratio.
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Old 01-01-2018   #60
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So you are saying that I better forget about buying a M 4/3 camera, Willie.
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Old 01-01-2018   #61
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The sensor is not the only criteria when byuing a camera...
And the mFT sensors are not bad at all.
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Old 01-02-2018   #62
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But for me there must be real arguments to live with the limitations of a small(er) sensor.
That´s a physical thing and does not depend on labels.
My APS-C cams do what they have to. The smaller ones, compacts down to the phone, have their advantages in portability.
Where is the place for a camera that is only marginally smaller than the others and
makes my lenses all telephoto?
Had this already when switching from film to digital APS-C.

So there are different decisions if you already have a system or plan to build your first
and only. And if you shoot full frame also you think about investing in (m)4/3 more than
ever...
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Old 01-02-2018   #63
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Raid, I have all three. While images from the Leicas are "special", there is a quality about them that is instantly noticeable when I process them compared to other files from other cameras. On the other hand, I am always blown away by the images from the Pen-F regardless of its sensor size. It never ceases to surprise me. The lenses, I have Panasonics as well as Olympus, are excellent. Convenience and the ability to shoot unobtrusively, the auto focus is extremely fast, are the Olympus' strengths.
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Old 01-02-2018   #64
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I don't see yet what for you'd need it, Raid, unless you want to do macro or tele work that the Ms can't do or need AF and TTL viewing for some other reason. I understand you like to use the same set of lenses on ff and m4/3 to double focal lengths, but to me that wouldn't be worth the hassle and expense of a new body. You have to learn it, carry another charger and batteries, learn to process the images to fit visually with the Ms... whereas long lenses for M are comparatively cheap, you have some already if I remember right from some posting.
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Old 01-02-2018   #65
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I owned a Pen-f for a while after I sold me M9. Neat little camera, but almost too small. Buttons everywhere.
Very good sensor, lots of resolution. Good colors. Very fast autofocus.
But something about the files always disturbed me a little. They have a “brittleness” to them. It may be the reduced DR...I don’t know.
I tried out a Leica TL2. Much nicer files, and I can use my old M lenses on it, plus almost any other lens. Right now, I’m enjoying some older Olympus OM lenses on it. Those little lenses are really nice!
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Old 01-02-2018   #66
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Quote:
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I don't see yet what for you'd need it
"Need"... Aw, come on man, what's that concept good for...? "Want"!
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Old 01-02-2018   #67
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So you are saying that I better forget about buying a M 4/3 camera, Willie.
Absolutely not.

I'm saying bright light does not necessarily compensate for choices with lower S/N performance.

S/N is always an advantage because more S/N always minimizes parameter estimate uncertainties. Sensor area is one of the significant factors that affect S/N.

The S/N of the newest m4/3 systems can outperform an older 24 X 36 mm body.

The S/N difference between M4/3 and APS-C is small.

If I didn't detest the 4:3 aspect ratio and prefer to compose with an OVF, I would find the newest Olympus system tempting. For travel and a daily carry, the m4/3 system offers significant advantages.
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Old 01-02-2018   #68
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Quote:
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The sensor is not the only criteria when byuing a camera...
And the mFT sensors are not bad at all.
Exactly so.








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Old 01-02-2018   #69
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OK, so it is not really a matter of avoiding M 4/3. I will think about it more. I must make sure that I actually would "respect" a new M 4/3 as much as my older M8 and M9.
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Old 01-02-2018   #70
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"Need"... Aw, come on man, what's that concept good for...? "Want"!
Exactly. It is GAS and not really a need for such purchases.
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Old 01-02-2018   #71
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Hi, Raid. All the best for 2018!

IMHO µ4/3 cameras show a suprisingly high performance. I have shot with several Olympus cams (1, 5, 10, PEN-F) and Panasonics (G1, GX8) and own a PEN E-P3.

They are great if used with µ4/3 lenses (which are excellent and make an ever so compact set-up) or (what I use my E-P3 most for) to shoot with c-mount glass and some fun stuff e.g. by Lomography. I totally agree with Andy when he writes that he dislikes µ4/3 sensors for adapting vintage lenses, the crop factor spoils most if the fun.

For me, the perfect complement for my M8 and M6 is my Sony A7II. This cam shines with vintage glass and most M-lenses.
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Old 01-02-2018   #72
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Happy New Year, Kent!
I agree with you on using vintage lenses on M 4/3 systems. I find that adapting vintage lenses works only with tele crops in the end. I am reluctant to spend a lot of money on a new M 4/3 camera, such as the Pen-F, which then most likely makes me buy at least one expensive new lens for it. The E-PL1 or E-P2 are still fine for snapshots on the go. The Sony A7II may be another alternative to think about.
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Old 01-15-2018   #73
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I have a M9 and Olympus E-M5, and I also have the Panasonic GH3, GH4 and GM1, all of which have 16mp sensors. Due to the processing and white balance of these cameras, I have to say that I prefer the colour output of the GM1 the most, then the GH3. GH4 colour is pretty good but not like GM1. Olympus white balance and colour palette always seems kind of darker and warmer than I like when processed with Lightroom 4.4, and I haven't been able to get an overall colour palette that I really like with it.

There are many times when I shoot the GM1 and M9 alongside each other as I feel they complement very well, and I can get the colours of the GM1 to have a similar look to the M9 in Lightroom.

I'm extremely happy with the f1.8 Olympus primes including the 17, 25, 45, and 75, as well as the 60mm macro. The Panasonic 14/2.5 is pretty good, but it doesn't have the saturation and 'bite' of the Olympus 25. As you have the Pana Leica 25, I'm sure it's even better than the Olympus 25.

The Panasonic 12-35 and 35-100 zooms are also excellent, but probably a little too clean and modern for your tastes. Incredibly versatile, though.
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Old 04-29-2018   #74
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I checked many reviews and image files for Pen F. It looks like if people know what they are doing, then high ISO would come as good.
For example: https://robinwong.blogspot.ca/2016/0...pus-pen-f.html

I wonder how bad is Pen F shutter lag, if any in manual focus mode?

I already have Oly 35 OVF and 15mm f9 is on its way by slow economy shipping .
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Old 04-29-2018   #75
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I checked many reviews and image files for Pen F. It looks like if people know what they are doing, then high ISO would come as good.
Yes, the image quality is pretty good at high ISO and you can of course do something in post. But it has limits, when viewed in 1:1, as always.

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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I wonder how bad is Pen F shutter lag, if any in manual focus mode?
It's not bad at all. Instead it is more or less immediate. A good practice is to have the shutter half pressed, using focus peaking in MF and fully press, as soon as the color-indicators show focus.

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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I already have Oly 35 OVF and 15mm f9 is on its way by slow economy shipping .
You mean the 15mm lens-cap-not-a-real-lens? That thing and its fisheye-brother are just crap... Okay, for Lomo-Style-shooting, they are pretty good, actually. But as "lens", they are crap.
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Old 04-29-2018   #76
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I have had excellent results from the basic and older model E-PL1 with Zeiss Sonnar 5cm/1.5 as a portrait lens. The colors are amazingly beautiful and natural looking.
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Old 04-29-2018   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krötenblender View Post
...
It's not bad at all. Instead it is more or less immediate. A good practice is to have the shutter half pressed, using focus peaking in MF and fully press, as soon as the color-indicators show focus.



You mean the 15mm lens-cap-not-a-real-lens? That thing and its fisheye-brother are just crap... Okay, for Lomo-Style-shooting, they are pretty good, actually. But as "lens", they are crap.

Does it mean camera is unable to release shutter if focusing by scale distance and framing in external OVF? It always want to be in focus by its guts first?

I donno about crap in this case:
https://www.flickr.com/groups/bcl-1580/pool/page1

To me Leica Thambar holds this value.
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Old 04-29-2018   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Does it mean camera is unable to release shutter if focusing by scale distance and framing in external OVF? It always want to be in focus by its guts first?
No, you can shoot anytime, no need to have anything in focus. I was just wrongly assuming, that focusing is a part of your intention with manual focus setting. But with the lens-cap-lens you can't really focus of course. This will work fine and without noticable lack.

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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I donno about crap in this case:
Well, I think, it depends, if you are talking technical image quality or the quality of the shoot. For the latter, the lens-caps are just fine. I used one myself for some time and did capture some nice shoots just from the hip without focusing. Just looking technical quality wise, they are crap. At least, cheap crap.
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