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Image Processing: Darkroom / Lightroom / Film Discuss Image processing -- traditional darkoom or digital lightroom here. Notice there are subcategories to narrow down subject matter. .

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Old 10-31-2018   #41
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Originally Posted by firstnate View Post
Thanks for the images and comparisons, Fujilove!

Yes, once I have better scanner calibrations, this should improve. I also need to make some videos and guides showing more about preferred options during scanning.

Part of the power of NLP is that it is about WAY more than just the initial conversion, because it gives you the ability to edit it to exactly the way you'd like it. I plan on adding the ability to "save profiles" too so you can save your preferred starting settings.

A few tips if you want to get similar results with NLP to what you are currently using:

1) Set "pre-saturation" to 5... the other options are reducing saturation to compensate for effect of contrast. Since you are using linear profile, there is no contrast added, so you will end up with desaturated images if less than 5 (I recognize this isn't intuitive... working on a way to make this simply).

2. Pull down the "midtones" quite substantially to add depth to the scenes (instead of the "bright and air" look Portra naturally tends towards). You can also experiment with pulling down the blacks and shadows a bit.

3. It looks like Auto-Color has overcorrected the scene... I would suggest leaving off in this case (or changing strength of auto-color to something like 10-25%), and making further adjustments to color balance in the color balance section.

Just posted a video to YouTube showing in-depth how to think about and use the controls (are youtube links allowed here?) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY8aow54Uyw

And if you have any scans you are having trouble with in NLP, feel free to send to me at nate @ natephotographic.com and I will take a look!
Thanks Nate - I made a few tweaks to the scan as per your instructions, and it is much better. It's now very close to the conversion using Adrian's Photoshop action, and I may even prefer the NLP version.

Here's a version using the standard curve. As you can see I converted using saturation level 5, dialled down the autocolor and balanced the colours:



And a version using the linear curve and a slightly different colour balance:



Again, a really nice conversion and definitely close to what I remember of the scene.
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Old 10-31-2018   #42
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Originally Posted by Gordon Coale View Post
I've not scanned in DNG before but I just did. I set Vuescan for a raw Tiff DNG file from a Portra 400 negative in slide mode and it worked very well.
It worked well with Negative Lab Pro?
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Old 10-31-2018   #43
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Originally Posted by firstnate View Post
Try this. Go to "Lightroom > Preferences > Performance" and make sure to DISABLE the "Use Graphics Processor" option. (The graphics processor acceleration can cause issues, both with Lightroom itself and plugins). Can you see if that fixes your issue?
My trial is up, so I guess I'll have to buy it to check..
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Old 11-02-2018   #44
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Can you use this on TIFF files? EpsonScan doesn't scan in DNG format that I'm aware of.

I also saw on the video tutorial that this can be used for black and white negs as well. What would the advantages be for b&w?
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Old 11-04-2018   #45
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Can you use this on TIFF files? EpsonScan doesn't scan in DNG format that I'm aware of.
Yes - works great on TIFF. Scan as a linear positive image. For best color in EpsonScan, use the neutral grey picker in the histogram panel to sample the film mask border.

The 'color models' are not done yet for scanners (high on my priority list), so for instance, the "Frontier" emulation will not work because it is not calibrated yet for non-DSLR scans... Coming soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grooves1200 View Post
I also saw on the video tutorial that this can be used for black and white negs as well. What would the advantages be for b&w?
Biggest advantage for black and white is workflow... Really great to be able to batch process conversions and make edits non-destructively. Just did a batch last night...



The editing controls are also very easy to use and adjust the look of your b+w tones... here's one of the finished edits from that session... took me 30 seconds of adjusts to Negative Lab Pro's tone panel to get this result:


Last edited by firstnate : 11-04-2018 at 11:09. Reason: Images weren't loading...
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Old 11-05-2018   #46
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I'm really stoked by the Plugin and looking forward to the update which includes scanner calibrations!

I think that the plugin already does a very good job on my V700.

Settings: Lock Film Base Color & Colortab set to "None", TIFF, Positivescan
  • 1: NLP, Frontier, Autocolor & -density, Adjustments <30s
  • 2: Vuescan, LFBcolor, AutoLevels
  • 3: Screenshot of NLP Settings

I like the colors of the NLP Conversion a lot more & they're also so much closer to the actual lighting when releasing the shutter. (warm, pre-sunset evening in Munich, end of august. Location on GMaps)

I also think that the batch-edits can seriously help to speed up the process & I really like the Lightroom integration, so much better than changing to Ps everytime.
The color adjustments are so intuitiv and the documentation is already pretty decent. Overall the experience is so much better compared to Colorperfect.

I'm really looking forward to the scanner calibrations & to my newly ordered macrolens & lighttray

NLP:


Vuescan:


NLP Settings:
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Old 11-05-2018   #47
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i gotta tell you, i was very skeptical the way it was presented. Having used all sorts of methods before, manual inversions in PS, inversions in flatbeds, raw scans, colour perfect etc. etc. HOWEVER, once I watched the video on how it works, it turned it into the game changing product I've been missing with my LR workflow I just refuse to step away from. The very fact that you can use it live in LR, without having to do the usual open in another software, then go back to LR and see it, is what we've all been looking for. And all of the functionality it has is just great.
I think you should be presenting it with a small mashup of the video of functionality and the usability inside LR, this way you can instantly sell to anyone who does LR/film workflow.
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Old 11-05-2018   #48
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I do not shoot much color film, but this seems interesting, I'm a LR user. Worthwhile a try at least!
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Old 11-05-2018   #49
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Originally Posted by Scapevision View Post
once I watched the video on how it works, it turned it into the game changing product I've been missing with my LR workflow...
Curious which video that was? Are you talking about the video on the main website (https://www.negativelabpro.com), or one of the videos on the YouTube page https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2e...P9eKH76z8YFgLw

Last edited by firstnate : 11-05-2018 at 06:59. Reason: Fixed URL
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Old 11-05-2018   #50
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Curious which video that was? Are you talking about the video on the main website (https://www.negativelabpro.com), or one of the videos on the YouTube page https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2e...P9eKH76z8YFgLw
The guide video on the website. Very good video guide. Actually noticed you have it on the homepage. Just wanted to point out it was a very good way to grab attention and instantly sell.

Anyway, I have a question regarding the licence. Does my computer need to be connected to the internet for it to check my licence? Or can I run the full version in an offline environment? I have a dedicated offline rig for all my imaging.
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Old 11-05-2018   #51
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This is it! All in Lightroom and excellent...
I don't want to be negative in this thread, but ... no no nooooo !!

I don't know if it's the same in your part of the world, but here in Belgium, Lightroom is $$$, it's a subscription that costs € 12 a months, so you lose € 144.
Not a one time payment...

And on top of paying that, you need to pay for Negative Lab Pro: € 99.

Isn't there something for free, for Gimp ? or for Rawtherapee?
Can't wait for that
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Old 11-05-2018   #52
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I don't want to be negative in this thread, but ... no no nooooo !!

I don't know if it's the same in your part of the world, but here in Belgium, Lightroom is $$$, it's a subscription that costs € 12 a months, so you lose € 144.
Not a one time payment...

And on top of paying that, you need to pay for Negative Lab Pro: € 99.

Isn't there something for free, for Gimp ? or for Rawtherapee?
Can't wait for that
Why do so many people want anything for free?
Did you think about the time the author needed for development and still needs for improvements? What do you think he should feed his family with? The thanks and likes on Facebook?

No plumber, teacher, you name it is working for free, why should somebody else?
You want to get paid for your work as well, don’t you?

Please feel free to go ahead and create the same plugin for gimp and provide it for free

If you don’t want to spend the money on NLP then use a route that is for free and be happy with that. But please don’t complain about the longer time it needs etc.
Don’t know about you, but my time is valuable and the hassle I save with NLP is definitely worth the money
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Old 11-05-2018   #53
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Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
Please feel free to go ahead and create the same plugin for gimp and provide it for free
He was simply asking why the plugin (not a free plugin) is not available for a software (like gimp) that is free.
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Old 11-05-2018   #54
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He was simply asking why the plugin (not a free plugin) is not available for a software (like gimp) that is free.
Please excuse me if I interpreted that in the wrong way and if it sounded too angry.
I think the author has his reasons why it’s available for Lightroom only and not as a stand-alone.

For me personally the LR- Integration is amazing and one of the key features of the plugin.
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Old 11-05-2018   #55
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Anyway, I have a question regarding the licence. Does my computer need to be connected to the internet for it to check my licence? Or can I run the full version in an offline environment? I have a dedicated offline rig for all my imaging.
When you go to verify the license, it will need to be connected to the internet to have a quick chat with my server. After that one-time verification, it won't need internet. So hopefully you have a way to get that machine on the internet temporarily?
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Old 11-05-2018   #56
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When you go to verify the license, it will need to be connected to the internet to have a quick chat with my server. After that one-time verification, it won't need internet. So hopefully you have a way to get that machine on the internet temporarily?
I do not, and that's unfortunate. I understand why it's done this way, but that's very unfortunate for me. Looks like i'll be waiting for the next solution to come on the market.
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Old 11-05-2018   #57
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Alright alright alright, I'm in. Bought.
Now I will see if those LR settings you suggested Nate work!

p.s. for years now whenever I get one of those suggestion surveys from Adobe LR, asking me to rate LR and what I would like to see, I've mentioned pretty much what you are now providing!
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Old 11-06-2018   #58
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Please excuse me if I interpreted that in the wrong way and if it sounded too angry.
No worries We're here to talk and discuss. That's what forums are all about.
You weren't sounding angry to me,... I was sounding angry about having to pay again, for a technology that already exists for 20 years in scanning software, now put in a new jacket, of a billion dollar company selling it.

I can also be wrong in lots of things.
It's up to you if you can let me know other insights, to show me the world can be different out of that box, but still habitable.
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Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
Why do so many people want anything for free?
Did you think about the time the author needed for development and still needs for improvements? What do you think he should feed his family with? The thanks and likes on Facebook?

No plumber, teacher, you name it is working for free, why should somebody else?
You want to get paid for your work as well, don’t you?
I understand your point of view very well.

However, being paid is a very broad concept.
And yes, there is free open source software that has been made by paid developers.
But after being paid for this, does he, or his company needs to be paid another time after they already been paid thousands of times by selling the same product worldwide?

I’ll get to your examples of a plumber and teacher later on, to show that not everyone is being paid the same way, or should do it for free.
But first, a bit more understanding in concepts as labour, hobby vs paid, profit on profit, ethical questions, spreading knowledge or freeware doesn’t do any harm,..

For example. 4 persons making soup.
One does it in a restaurant kitchen, being paid by the chef. The second one is preparing the soup as a volunteer for an NGO giving care to poor or homeless people. The third one is visiting her sick mom and preparing soup for her in her kitchen, and the last one is making soup for herself to eat alone.
They all worked one hour doing this. 4 hours labour in total. But for our government, only 1 hour counts: the one of the first person, because that hour of labour can be taxed.
Question: should all 4 persons being paid? Because they all worked the same amount of time, the same job.
No, some do it for free.
So to answer your question “you want to get paid for your work as well, don’t you?”:
>> are you paying your mom when she cooks a meal for you? I’m not talking about paying the ingredients, but she’s doing labour for you.

Where’s the line between hobby and a paid job:
Some people are doing it as a hobby. A musician playing recreatively for his own pleasure versus a paid session musician in a studio.
A street musician playing free, but being paid “as you wish” when people passing by giving a coin, or a musician booked by management to play in a concert hall where people are asked to buy a ticket before they can hear anything. (later more about hobby vs paid)

These are all differences in view on how you wish to be paid. Or what you want to pay for.
Some guy I know with an apple tree in the garden has free apples each year. Wether he wants it or not, his product is there, growing by itself.
If he doesn’t eat all the apples by himself, he has a choice to:
- throw away the apples, feeding animals with it, or giving it away to friends and family, for free.
- selling the apples (100% profit)

When people pass a shop’s showcase with 2 buckets: one with free apples and one for $ 4, most customers will have weird doubts for the free bucket and will pay for the other bucket instead. Not knowing that these are exactly the same apples. It has been tested in customer experiments before.

To get to your example: you used a plumber and a teacher as example. Both are working and paid by task or by hours.
A teacher, working in paid employment, paid by the school per hour, no matter how many students he has in his class. Think about having 10 students the first hour, and he has 20 students the second hour, he would be paid more the second hour?
You can compare it with private teachers teaching at home or in private rented rooms, like a private guitar or yoga teacher, where students have to pay per session, is a different. They give the same hours of labour, but get paid differently.

Now, the plumber, when my plumber installs me a sink, I pay him for his work and I can use my sink the upcoming months. I’m not paying for him each coming month when I use that sink. I only pay for his hours of work and the materials he used.
For LightRoom, you will have to pay a subscription, each month, while the value of making the software and service is already paid thousands of time by now.
Furthermore, I pay the plumber, I use the sink. Now, if my daughter or mother wants to wash her hands and use the same sink, they don’t have to pay the plumber another time for this. This is the case with a lot of software that already has been paid so many times. Should I use the word profit again already?

Now, to go more to the point with this background, you’ve seen I’ve already written the word “profit”.
A developer programs something and after it’s ready, it’s being sold.
A painter paints a painting and after it’s ready, it’s being sold. Once.
The difference is that the developper can sell it twice, oh no, unlimited times.
When a company sells products for a price that is enough to pay his employees, it’s fair, but companies want profit, to grow, for the shareholders, or just to make profit on profit. That’s the reason why the products are being sold at so much higher rates than the value of these products. Unlimited times, in this case.

Another difference is that a painting needs to be made again and again and again, from scratch. While software is being made from knowledge, technologies, inventions, systems already made in the past, that get used and reused again and being built on top of the other and mostly not from scratch. Certainly if it’s all being shared, like open source freeware.

Open software has the advantage that it’s not about one company that steers how users can work with their software, where these users even need to pay for it too.
Open source is about users that have needs where a group of engaged developers works for, all together. And yes, you can get paid by it as developer, for a fair amount to have a living, and not to make profit on profit on profit like capitalistic companies do.

Paid 'free' software.
I already mentioned the concept of “hobby” versus ‘paid’. Some developers doing nerdy stuff at home as a hobby, they can contribute for free to open source software in their free time, and they can even join paid opportunities.
A lot of open source is being funded by universities, by projects sponsored by NGO’s, by companies who want their own software tailored for them as it’s not existing yet in the “private market” and have this shared for free afterwards because they think it’s good for the society or community that can make use of this too. They can change it, build upon it, make it better, redistribute,... The ethical wisdom to share and not to keep for yourself. So now there are poor families where kids can have access to software that is free of use, to develop their skills for later use when they grow up. Learning skills shouldn’t be kept for the rich only.

Another good explanation about free software:
“Why is free software important? Richard Stallman - in INT's ENLIGHTENMENT MINUTES”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPPikY3uLIQ

There’s so much more to find about this subject when you google “reasons why to use free software” or “why should software be free” and questions like that.
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Old 11-06-2018   #59
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For LightRoom, you will have to pay a subscription, each month, while the value of making the software and service is already paid thousands of time by now.
NLP works with Lightroom 6 for which you can buy a stand-alone, one-off licence. There's no need to subscribe to Adobe Creative Cloud: https://helpx.adobe.com/download-ins...ghtroom-6.html

It's about £120 in the UK.
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Old 11-06-2018   #60
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Old 11-06-2018   #61
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No worries We're here to talk and discuss. That's what forums are all about.

There’s so much more to find about this subject when you google “reasons why to use free software” or “why should software be free” and questions like that.
thank you very much for your lenghty answer, Bulevardi. I really appreciate your efforts taken to present your argumentation!
In my opinion, only discussions like this will help us to see the bigger picture and increase our own limited horizons.

and yes, I really don’t like how the software world is evolving right now: subscriptions everywhere, even in the (apple) app store.
From my point of view there is no need to discuss the licensing model of Adobe. Your points completely state why!
My point was rather meant in support for the pricing model of the plugin which I find reasonable if you compare it to similar offerings like Color Perfect, Silverfast etc.

Thank you very much for your additional input, I will listen to Richard this evening!

However, I don’t think this is the right thread to discuss this indeed very important topic.
Let’s get back to sharing pictures and questions regarding NLP!
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Old 11-06-2018   #62
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Zorki 4, Jupiter 8 50mm 2.0, Fuji C200, D850 scan, NLP process
Amazing Huss! would you mind sharing your set-up and the settings?
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Old 11-06-2018   #63
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My point was rather meant in support for the pricing model of the plugin which I find reasonable if you compare it to similar offerings like Color Perfect, Silverfast etc.
ColorPerfect is $67, NPL is $99, can't see why CP is not reasonable. Silverfast is a joke, yes.

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Old 11-06-2018   #64
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Amazing Huss! would you mind sharing your set-up and the settings?
All I did was scan the image in RAW via my camera, then followed Nate's instructions!
Used the white balance dropper on the edge of the film strip. Then cropped out all the non image bit (so no borders etc). This bit is crucial!!! As it really influences the conversion process. Nate stresses this in his tutorial.
Then I opened NLP, left all the stock settings, clicked on Convert. Then for this image I picked the hard shadow option.
That was it!

Super easy, super quick and much better than my old process which had me export to NikFX, then reimport as a TIFF as not only was that fiddlier, but created much bigger files.

I love this plug-in! I wish I had it years ago!
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Old 11-06-2018   #65
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ColorPerfect is $67, NPL is $99, can't see why CP is not reasonable. Silverfast is a joke, yes.

Juergen
ColorPerfect needs a college degree and tons of patience, Negative Pro Lab is intuitive and fast. Also the workflow is wonderful. ColorPerfect is all about bloated tiff files and yes I agree about Silverfast.

I never got results that really satisfied me with ColorPerfect
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Old 11-06-2018   #66
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Zorki 4, Jupiter 8, Fuji C200, D850 scan, NegativeLabPro Lightroom plugin.

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Old 11-07-2018   #67
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When you go to verify the license, it will need to be connected to the internet to have a quick chat with my server. After that one-time verification, it won't need internet. So hopefully you have a way to get that machine on the internet temporarily?
Hi Nate - A couple more questions...

1. How are you planning to distribute updates to the plugin? An email notification + instructions how to download and update it within Lightroom?

2. I've noticed when converting a RAW flatbed scan that the colour balance of the image changes when I alter the curve (whites, darks etc.) Is that due to the current lack of profiles for the flatbeds, or will this always happen due to the way the plugin works?
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Old 11-07-2018   #68
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2. I've noticed when converting a RAW flatbed scan that the colour balance of the image changes when I alter the curve (whites, darks etc.) Is that due to the current lack of profiles for the flatbeds, or will this always happen due to the way the plugin works?
Does this happen when you alter the curve in the plugin or when you alter it in Lightroom after conversion? If the second is the case try using the “tiff copy” option
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Old 11-07-2018   #69
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Does this happen when you alter the curve in the plugin or when you alter it in Lightroom after conversion? If the second is the case try using the “tiff copy” option
It happens when I alter it in the plugin. It’s not a HUGE colour shift, but obvious. I’ll post a couple of examples when I get a chance.
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Old 11-07-2018   #70
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1. How are you planning to distribute updates to the plugin? An email notification + instructions how to download and update it within Lightroom?
Yes - email + instructions. I may eventually do some kind of notification / update inside Lightroom directly, but it's not high on my development priority list.

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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
2. I've noticed when converting a RAW flatbed scan that the colour balance of the image changes when I alter the curve (whites, darks etc.) Is that due to the current lack of profiles for the flatbeds, or will this always happen due to the way the plugin works?
Yes - Basically it's due to rounding errors... I can only set the tone curve points on a 256x256 grid... every time you make a change in NLP (whether to tones or color balance), it's actually doing some tricky math behind the scenes to recalculate the red, green & blue tone curve points from scratch. The math is good, but the limited resolution of the tone curve grid causes some bumps along the way. I'll continue to look for algorithms that minimize these jumps!
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Old 11-07-2018   #71
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Basic user question - hopefully..
When I select the make TIFF option, and then Apply, I do not see a TIFF. I do see that there are apparently 2 copies (stacked) in LR, but I only can access the NEF (raw) not the TIFF. I have tried unstack etc.
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Old 11-07-2018   #72
predicolous
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Basic user question - hopefully..
When I select the make TIFF option, and then Apply, I do not see a TIFF. I do see that there are apparently 2 copies (stacked) in LR, but I only can access the NEF (raw) not the TIFF. I have tried unstack etc.
Did you try the following?
right klick -> stacks -> show all stacks?

(translated the menu from German, hope it's named that way in the english version)

for me the file "(...)-positive.tiff shows up
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Old 11-08-2018   #73
ACullen
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I’m loving NLP . I had a dozen or so colour films to scan but was dreading the task using ColorPerfect. CP was slow and sometimes gave really odd results. NLP is vastly quicker. I think it could do with some presets but I love its apparent simplicity .
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Old 11-08-2018   #74
predicolous
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Originally Posted by ACullen View Post
I’m loving NLP . I had a dozen or so colour films to scan but was dreading the task using ColorPerfect. CP was slow and sometimes gave really odd results. NLP is vastly quicker. I think it could do with some presets but I love its apparent simplicity .
would you mind sharing some examples?
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Old 11-08-2018   #75
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Originally Posted by firstnate View Post
Yes - email + instructions. I may eventually do some kind of notification / update inside Lightroom directly, but it's not high on my development priority list.



Yes - Basically it's due to rounding errors... I can only set the tone curve points on a 256x256 grid... every time you make a change in NLP (whether to tones or color balance), it's actually doing some tricky math behind the scenes to recalculate the red, green & blue tone curve points from scratch. The math is good, but the limited resolution of the tone curve grid causes some bumps along the way. I'll continue to look for algorithms that minimize these jumps!

Thanks Nate - appreciate the info.
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Old 11-08-2018   #76
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
It happens when I alter it in the plugin. It’s not a HUGE colour shift, but obvious. I’ll post a couple of examples when I get a chance.
Playing with the trial I noticed the colour shift while changing midtones slider too.
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Old 11-08-2018   #77
firstnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Basic user question - hopefully..
When I select the make TIFF option, and then Apply, I do not see a TIFF. I do see that there are apparently 2 copies (stacked) in LR, but I only can access the NEF (raw) not the TIFF. I have tried unstack etc.
In the Library module, if you are still in "Previous Import" catalog on the left-side panel, you will not be able to see the newly created Tiff file... try changing your catalog to "All Photos" or going to the specific folder where your last import was. You should then be able to see the positive tiff file.

I'm trying to see if there is an easier way to do this, because a lot of people edit in the context of the "Preview Import" catalog, and it isn't intuitive to have to switch.
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Old 11-08-2018   #78
Huss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
Did you try the following?
right klick -> stacks -> show all stacks?

(translated the menu from German, hope it's named that way in the english version)

for me the file "(...)-positive.tiff shows up
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstnate View Post
In the Library module, if you are still in "Previous Import" catalog on the left-side panel, you will not be able to see the newly created Tiff file... try changing your catalog to "All Photos" or going to the specific folder where your last import was. You should then be able to see the positive tiff file.

I'm trying to see if there is an easier way to do this, because a lot of people edit in the context of the "Preview Import" catalog, and it isn't intuitive to have to switch.

Thank you both, will try that.
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Old 11-14-2018   #79
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When you say better scanner calibration, does that mean people using film scanners will be able to use the Noritsu and Frontier modes with the same results as scanning with a camera? I really enjoy the results I get, but seeing the video makes me realize what I'm missing.
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Old 11-14-2018   #80
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When you say better scanner calibration, does that mean people using film scanners will be able to use the Noritsu and Frontier modes with the same results as scanning with a camera? I really enjoy the results I get, but seeing the video makes me realize what I'm missing.
Yep, that's the goal. I'm finding it's quite complicated because of the differences in scanning software people use (EpsonScan, VueScan, Silverfast, FlexColor, etc), but with the right scan settings, plus the right calibrations built into Negative Lab Pro, it should be possible to get very very close.
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