Old 02-19-2020   #81
Ko.Fe.
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Originally Posted by icebear View Post
Ko ...
you have the ME since 2016 and haven't figured out to maximize it's potential within the limitations this very basic digital camera has?
You are pulling our collective legs here, right?

If not then : RTFM In case you lost your's or the camera didn't come with one, you can download it here:
https://www.camerauserguide.net/leic...uide-pdf/14927

p. 118 histogram
p. 126/127 white balance
p. 135-137 exposure

Cheers
Quote:
metering on the
Leica M-E is strongly center-weighted, essentially only
an area in the center of the picture is calibrated to an
average gray scale value.
Thank you! I'm just not good at Wetzlarian English.
As an Leica manual expert, could you tell me - where M-E was metering on this shot. It is M-E SOOC picture:



Honestly, to me Leica manuals are just as dumb as their sales texts. Empty, pathetic, sometimes just total BS.
Normal cameras manuals have pictures where areas of exposure measurement are shown. My Canon DSLR manuals do.
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Old 02-19-2020   #82
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Originally Posted by Vince Lupo View Post
Somewhat related, this is a really interesting video of Ansel Adams and his famous 'Moonrise, Hernandez'. For those of you who think that his stunning photo just popped out of the camera as-is onto Grade 2 paper without any or very little adjustments, well think again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Ar5ZPuKUM

As Ansel has said, the negative is the score, the print is the performance. Maybe look at digital files and resulting images the same way, might be helpful.

From the movie: "I have lots of pictures that I think are just as good, but my public doesn't agree with me"


Now isn't that a truth! We don't "see" our own pictures like others do.
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Old 02-19-2020   #83
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Thank you! I'm just not good at Wetzlarian English.
As an Leica manual expert, could you tell me - where M-E was metering on this shot. It is M-E SOOC picture:



Honestly, to me Leica manuals are just as dumb as their sales texts. Empty, pathetic, sometimes just total BS.
Normal cameras manuals have pictures where areas of exposure measurement are shown. My Canon DSLR manuals do.
Ko you are about 1 stop maybe a touch more under exposed. You needed to open up a stop. Tere is sky and snow that could have tricked the meter. Are you consistently getting under exposed files?

I did a really fast edit on this. But it is under exposed.
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Old 02-19-2020   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Thank you! I'm just not good at Wetzlarian English.
As an Leica manual expert, could you tell me - where M-E was metering on this shot. It is M-E SOOC picture:



Honestly, to me Leica manuals are just as dumb as their sales texts. Empty, pathetic, sometimes just total BS.
Normal cameras manuals have pictures where areas of exposure measurement are shown. My Canon DSLR manuals do.


I am not a Leica expert but am a long time user of Leica and an even longer time photographer.

The under exposure in the shot indicates to me that the camera's light meter seems to be heavily influenced by the bright sky. Even so the sky looks a little dull to me - more dull than I would expect if the above is so. (which of course is what you are complaining about). But that thought gives rise to one further thing to check - do you have any negative exposure compensation dialed in? I had not thought to ask this before but should ask it now. If so this would also tend to under expose the image. (I usually shoot my M8 up to one stop under using the exposure compensation as it is easier to recover shadow detail when post processing images than to recover blown highlights and my shots will often come out of camera looking quite dark like your images. This does not bother me as I know it can be corrected in Lightroom very quickly and effectively.) If it continues to happen with your camera and it bothers you because you have an aversion to post processing, there may be a simple solution - go the other way with exposure compensation and dial in half a stop or more positive correction. Then shoot away. Your meter will still get confused now and then but it may be better for your purpose. And you may also do as I suggested before and use an 18% grey to meter from and having done that shoot in manual mode using ambient lighting conditions rather than meter every shot. You can still dial in positive exposure compensation before you do that of course if that helps.
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Old 02-19-2020   #85
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I agree Peter. Ko, I would say next time find something in the area your subject is in that is about 18% gray and set your exposure from that info.
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Old 02-19-2020   #86
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Do digital Leicas hold the exposure with half-press on the release?

My first impression of that photo was that maybe the release was inadvertently half-pressed in the last moments while the camera was being raised - thereby taking a meter reading towards the sky - and then when the camera shutter was released at eye level, the sky-reading was retained.
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Old 02-19-2020   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pál_K View Post
Do digital Leicas hold the exposure with half-press on the release?

My first impression of that photo was that maybe the release was inadvertently half-pressed in the last moments while the camera was being raised - thereby taking a meter reading towards the sky - and then when the camera shutter was released at eye level, the sky-reading was retained.


Sounds entirely plausible to me. Yes leicas do lock exposure on a half press of the shutter button. I am not sure how the M-E rates but the half press on my M8 is abysmal - it is very sensitive and it is far too easy to either press a smidgin too hard and take the shot before you are ready or do as you have suggested and accidentally move the finger enough to unlock the half press activated exposure lock. I have read that there have been later improvements in this regard but I am not sure when these were implemented. I had not considered this eventually but perhaps should have. Still if this problem is not isolated to a single image or even a few images it may not be the issue in this case.
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Old 02-19-2020   #88
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Half-press is the only explanation I understand...

I followed what was written here about metering.
S16 works fine.



Handheld or in the Phone meter would be even better.
Still have to find out how to get colours closer to something I like.
Colour temperature isn't working as I want. So far custom WB was the best.

Metering by the camera is more trouble then light is difficult. It just acted like Bessa R for this shot and another one. Just blinking arrows, never got it to solid circle.



Printing of it shows more interesting result.
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Old 02-19-2020   #89
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Neither of these two photos that you just posted pose the contrast problem for the meter of the original one that you posted. These are a much different lighting situation than the first one had. Now if you see in the bottom photo the blown highlights in the light area to the far left top of the frame? If that area was a large enough area in the frame like in the original one and the meter was reading that area this bottom image it would have been under if you the photographer didn't compensate for that. Its like someone in a window that is backlit and the bright window fills the frame. If you just rely on the meter then you will under expose the subject.
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Old 02-19-2020   #90
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The metered field in absolute terms with a 28mm lens is much larger than with a 50. In the Leica M5 manual, for instance, the metering field of the 135mm lens is given by the rangefinder patch alone, of the 50mm lens by curved lines in the VF/RF window near the RF patch and the metering field for the 35 is given by the 135mm frame lines etc. The later Leicas have a wider metering field. I can't find anything clear in the M9-P manual but the M6 manual has it that the metering field diameter is 2/3 of the short side of the relevant focal length frame line in the viewfinder. This, with a 28, is quite a way bigger than the 90 mm frame lines. The snow in the OP's first picture will have certainly contributed to the metering as airfrogusmc has pointed out.
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Old 02-20-2020   #91
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That's a really nice shot - has a bit of Bill Brandt/Bruce Davidson in terms of tonality. Good moment.
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Old 02-20-2020   #92
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Originally Posted by icebear View Post
Ko ...
you have the ME since 2016 and haven't figured out to maximize it's potential within the limitations this very basic digital camera has?
You are pulling our collective legs here, right?

If not then : RTFM In case you lost your's or the camera didn't come with one, you can download it here:
https://www.camerauserguide.net/leic...uide-pdf/14927

p. 118 histogram
p. 126/127 white balance
p. 135-137 exposure

Cheers


I mean I don't know what to say... but the fact there are tons of rookie's on this forum that have a hard time admitting so... some not... and this yet another classic example... Time to hit the books hard and practice a hell of a lot more... Sorry I don't like to sugar coat things....In fact there was a a lot of really good info on this thread... Much to learn if you got the time and desire...
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Old 02-20-2020   #93
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That's a really nice shot - has a bit of Bill Brandt/Bruce Davidson in terms of tonality. Good moment.
Thank you, I'm reading D. Moriyama "How I take photographs" and this one was taken on the side alley.
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Old 02-20-2020   #94
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Thank you, I'm reading D. Moriyama "How I take photographs" and this one was taken on the side alley.
Ko yeah I agree with Vince. The alley shot is a real gem.
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Old 02-20-2020   #95
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I mean I don't know what to say... but the fact there are tons of rookie's on this forum that have a hard time admitting so... some not... and this yet another classic example... Time to hit the books hard and practice a hell of a lot more... Sorry I don't like to sugar coat things....In fact there was a a lot of really good info on this thread... Much to learn if you got the time and desire...
And you are horse blinder, from selective readers camp

Once again, Leica manual doesn't even shows the area of the exposure measurement. Just one vague phrase.
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Old 02-20-2020   #96
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Ko yeah I agree with Vince. The alley shot is a real gem.
Thank you, it was "always look around" case.
Seems to be a couple, one was in this alley, another at the street, was asking for directions. But I have no idea what was the place they were asking about. Maybe it is not even in Toronto, if not imaginary. Here is shortage of mental services in Canada, if not deliberate ignorance.
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Old 02-20-2020   #97
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Ko I think the M-E has a center weighted meter in it. But use any meter as just a starting point or an anchor. It is only a tool and not something to totally rely on. That's why a photographer is and always needs to be in the mix. It is that photographer that takes the info and if there is a lot of backlight his experience will tell him if he needs to not trust that info and compensate for the back light in some way. Like I said earlier I would meter the sky and then eh are in the shadow and have figure out what i am going to lose and how my exposure is going to effect that decision. That would all be done before I started shooting. Then I would do a test shot to make sure I was keeping the areas that were important to the final photograph.

The reason I asked earlier if you are experiencing the same under exposure with the M-E all the time, maybe the meter needs to be adjusted. Of it is consistent and you know it is the meter then you could just open up the amount you have found it is under-exposing. Maybe get a gray card or a Kodak color chart and do some tests in bright sunlight and shade.
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Old 02-20-2020   #98
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No, it is not every time. I used AE at the end of the day yesterday, then it was dark and it came out just nicely.
It is most likely me half-pressing and holding. Then I walk camera, lens are slightly upwards. I half-press to wake it up.
Or it is how this 28mm lens is measured with bright part of the scene, as Peter mentioned.
In manual is it saying something like "extremely center weighted". Just one phrase, no drawing.
If I remember correct I used M-E as spot meter, with AE and lock for this one and it came out fine:



Exactly same lens...
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Old 02-20-2020   #99
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The subjects in the foreground do look a bit under on my monitor. I have the M-E and I don't think it has a spot meter mode.

If the scene has a lot of bright light in the frame the meter is seeing that all as 18% gray. If doesn't know better. Its a meter. The photographer is the one that should know. If the sky has important details then I would meter that making sure that the sky was the only thing influencing the meter and I would then open up two stop from that reading. That would move the sky to Zone VII which should hold detail. Do a fast test shot and see if all the info is indeed there. Adjust accordingly. In post I would then do a quick mask (CS6) over the sky to hold the detail and pull up the shadows.
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Old 02-20-2020   #100
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Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
This looks a bit under on my monitor. I have the M-E and I don't think it has a spot meter mode.
It's just center-weighted. They used to have a little graphic showing the expected coverage based on focal length, but it must not be in current versions of the manual because I couldn't find it in my M240 documents.
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Old 02-20-2020   #101
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https://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M9-di...-of-light.html

This one covers the options in the M240 a bit..

https://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-M-Typ...implicity.html

Shawn
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Old 02-20-2020   #102
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It's just center-weighted. They used to have a little graphic showing the expected coverage based on focal length, but it must not be in current versions of the manual because I couldn't find it in my M240 documents.
Yeah thats what I thought, An with the M 10 you can have spot but only in live view IIRC

Ko what you are experiencing are all the reasons I only shoot manually. Once I get the info from the meter I know the light doesn't usually change all the much. I did say usually. But once I have the knowledge of the shadows and highlights and have done a quick test I just use that info. I don't chase the meter because I know that it will change the exposure when it shouldn't.
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Old 02-20-2020   #103
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Yes, I'm getting to same conclusion. S16 or meter. Maybe it is good thing. I usually snap by walking by. Lots of crappy framing. Now I will try to stop, measure and take it. I'll act like Winogrand . Should add external 28mm VF for complete re-entrancement.
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Old 02-20-2020   #104
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Ko, there is a "virtual" circle around the focus field in the viewfinder that somewhat represents the area covered by the center weighted metering in Leica cameras that use reflected light from the shutter curtain. In the analog cameras you have a white dot in front of the curtain. With the digital metal shutters you have one segment in a brighter color to reflect the light to a photo cell on the bottom inside the body. The wider the angle of view of your lens, the more of the scene gets covered by the metering area. Basically the result is getting more unspecific the shorter the focal length you choose. You are e.g. getting more influence of the bright sky.

The nice thing about a digital camera is that you can immediately check the exposure result. The perfect tool for this evaluation of the exposure is the histogram. Learn to use it to understand if the metering was OK, i.e. resulting in a proper exposure or if the image is strongly underexposed like in your example taken with a 28mm lens. If the camera's basic metering doesn't yield a proper exposure in a difficult lighting situation, then YOU have to make a decison how to compensate to get a better exposure. You can choose to meter in a different manner, e.g. pointing down to the ground, half press and then frame with this metering result. Or you meter pointing at the scene in the same way, half press and open the aperture half or one stop.

There are cameras with multi metering scene modes that take care of this for you. A Leica M9/ M-E is not one those. That's the beauty of these primitve and basic RF cameras, you are in charge. Not some programmer who developed a fancy algorythm that gets it right in 90+% of average scenes.
If the shot is great you are resposible, if the shot sucks, then well ... you are responsible as well.

I like it this way and I go nuts if any instrument I use has seemingly a mind of it's own and is trying to override my intentions. If I make a seplling mistake it's my own.

One general remark on the "18% grey"
This is a grey that is reflecting only 18% of the light, that is actually pretty dark grey.

As for WB, yes the auto WB in the M9/M-E sucks, use manual WB (I use the expo disc) and enjoy the wonderful colors of the Leica lenses in combination with the CCD sensor ... and calibrate your monitor.
Cheers
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Old 02-20-2020   #105
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Klaus I would argue 18% gray is in the middle of the zones. So middle gray. See Zone V below.
From Fred Pickers book Zone VI Workshop page 10 IIRC this was taken from Ansel Adams The Negative.

Zone I Effective threshold. First step above complete black in a print. Slight tonality, but no texture.

Zone II First suggestion of texture. Deep tonalities, representing the darkest part of the image in which some detail is required.

Zone III
Average dark materials. Low values showing adequate testure.

Zone IV
Average dark foliage. Dark stone. Landscape shadow. Recommended shadow value for portraits in sunlight.

Zone V
Clear north sky (panchromatic rendering). Dark skin. Gray stone. Average weathered wood. Middle Gray (18% reflectance).

Zone VI
Average Caucasian skin value is sunlight or artificial light, and in diffused sunlight or very soft light. Light stone. Clear north sky (orthochromatic rendering). Shadows on snow in sunlight snowscapes.

Zone VII
Very light skin. Light-gray objects. Average snow with acute side lighting.

Zone VIII
Whites with textures and delicate values (not blank whites). Snow in full shade. Highlights on Caucasian skin.

Zone IX
Glaring white surfaces. Snow in flat sunlight. White without texture. (The only subjects higher than Zone IV would be light sources, either actual or reflected; but the would obviously be rendered in print as maximum white values of the paper surface.)
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