Kodak fires 40 film workers
Old 12-03-2013   #1
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Kodak fires 40 film workers

Just came across this story today (from November 26).

How many people do they have working making film in Rochester?
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Old 12-03-2013   #2
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As the article says, they will update those figures by the end of the year. From all data, not many people left, though they still make motion picture film.....for now.
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Old 12-03-2013   #3
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Does Kodak in Rochester still make the photographic film that Kodak Alaris now sells?

The only film mentioned in the article is motion picture film. It's still a shame.

-Greg
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Old 12-03-2013   #4
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Shame it is. I still remember those photos from a couple of years ago of Kodak buildings being demolished by explosives.
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Old 12-03-2013   #5
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Anyone know if "It's a Wonderful Life" was shot on Kodak stock?
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Old 12-03-2013   #6
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Does Kodak in Rochester still make the photographic film that Kodak Alaris now sells?
Supposedly that is their future option. But it hardly will be happening right now, in terms of continuous production - casting has always been a intermittent process and film has to mature before it can be sold. Even in the old times, Alaris would be selling last years production, i.e. something cast prior to the split. By most accounts casting cycles might by now be stretching years, so what they sell now might be produced several years back.
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Old 12-03-2013   #7
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The original nitrate camera negative for "It's Wonderful Life" was lost years ago.
The film was preserved first in the 90's by Film Technology, and some subsequent work (c2002ish if I remember right) was done by Crest National Labs. In both cases, preservation elements were made to fine grain duplicating stock, mostly likely 5234.

Note- I was involved in the subsequent work and our work on it was minor.

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Anyone know if "It's a Wonderful Life" was shot on Kodak stock?
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Old 12-03-2013   #8
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what they sell now might be produced several years back.

At this rate the film will be expired before it is used.....
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Old 12-03-2013   #9
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new stock i buy in budapest has an expire date of 2014-2015. it cannot be that old.
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Old 12-03-2013   #10
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new stock i buy in budapest has an expire date of 2014-2015. it cannot be that old.
Refrigerated black and white master rolls have a shelf life of many years - the expiration date reflects the expected shelf life in worst case shop or home conditions more than the past period of factory storage the film has been through. Colour is a bit more vulnerable - but even pro slide film (the material with the shortest shelf life) was usually matured for a year before being sold with a expiration date a year or two on.
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Old 12-03-2013   #11
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I guess the real question is this: will Kodak still make photographic film?
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Old 12-03-2013   #12
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Originally Posted by dogberryjr View Post
Anyone know if "It's a Wonderful Life" was shot on Kodak stock?
It doesn't say in the credits? Maybe not -- certainly credits lasted for only seconds back then, compared with the many minutes that they take these days.
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Old 12-03-2013   #13
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The original nitrate camera negative for "It's Wonderful Life" was lost years ago.
The film was preserved first in the 90's by Film Technology, and some subsequent work (c2002ish if I remember right) was done by Crest National Labs. In both cases, preservation elements were made to fine grain duplicating stock, mostly likely 5234.

Note- I was involved in the subsequent work and our work on it was minor.
See? I come in here being a smartass, making a Mr. Potter firing people around the holidays joke, and someone comes along with actual fact and a bit of film history. Ah, RFF!
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Old 12-03-2013   #14
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Haw!

I've been asking around and I think that Paramount Studios has done a 2k digital restoration on the film since Crest handled it. but I can't find the year or what lab handled the work.

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See? I come in here being a smartass, making a Mr. Potter firing people around the holidays joke, and someone comes along with actual fact and a bit of film history. Ah, RFF!
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Old 12-03-2013   #15
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I guess the real question is this: will Kodak still make photographic film?
Probably not for very long, unless they either make (all) casting a separate entity or integrate photographic film manufacturing into Alaris. The current structure, with production a appendix of a division that has already demonstrated little interest in film, does not bode too well - it creates incentives for Alaris to look for a cheaper supplier, and relieves Kodak of the requirement to continue production...
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Old 12-04-2013   #16
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Probably not for very long, unless they either make (all) casting a separate entity or integrate photographic film manufacturing into Alaris. The current structure, with production a appendix of a division that has already demonstrated little interest in film, does not bode too well - it creates incentives for Alaris to look for a cheaper supplier, and relieves Kodak of the requirement to continue production...
i don't think it makes any sense for anyone to move film production to an other factory. and i don't see why would kodak want to stop film production in the forseeable future. if kodak survives the revoltuion in digital distribution, and it is rentable to manufacture mostly camera negatives and archival film, that is.
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Old 12-04-2013   #17
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i don't think it makes any sense for anyone to move film production to an other factory.
Sense or not, it is very unlikely to happen, as it would need substantial investments... But it is not that unlikely that the mangement buys out the division, or Alaris steps in, whenever the reduction in motion picture sales makes it unattractive on the Kodak annual report. Both keeping the current Rochester plants for the above reason.

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and i don't see why would kodak want to stop film production in the forseeable future. if kodak survives the revoltuion in digital distribution, and it is rentable to manufacture mostly camera negatives and archival film, that is.
Every modern MBA is taught that rentability is irrelevant - growth is what matters. And there is no growth in film - so it is nothing that a company led by a Mr. Perez will continue...
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Old 12-04-2013   #18
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Shame it is. I still remember those photos from a couple of years ago of Kodak buildings being demolished by explosives.
link.
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Old 12-04-2013   #19
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Every modern MBA is taught that rentability is irrelevant - growth is what matters. And there is no growth in film - so it is nothing that a company led by a Mr. Perez will continue...
On what basis are you saying the above?
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Old 12-04-2013   #20
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And there is no growth in film
Wrong.

http://www.japancamerahunter.com/201...film-new-hope/
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Old 12-04-2013   #21
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It does say in film MFG but what was the work they where doing managers or working on making film. The best way cut CEO and other top mangers wages. Just look at the number they have making film. After that cut the retail price. If look at pricing of other film 100/125 ASA 120
Arista $3.00
Foma $.4.29
Fujifilm $4.99
Kodak $5.60 each in a five pack $28.00

If look at this re-package from Arista and make $2.60 each
The equipment Kodak uses and automatic very little labor is need to make film
Now why are they filling back to the top.

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Old 12-04-2013   #22
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Is there any legitimate data that supports that film has grown over the last few years? I see a lot of speculation, but nothing concrete. It would suck for it to be gone completely, or to only have film that is questionable in its quality (impossible), but I haven't seen any real numbers supporting the death or rebirth of film. Also, I would imagine that it would be dependent on where you live.
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Old 12-04-2013   #23
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I have read the same thing. The sales data will tell the store if some one can post it would great. I will say it would be like horse shoes, wagon wheels, bows and arrows. They still here not use as must but still made today.

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Is there any legitimate data that supports that film has grown over the last few years? I see a lot of speculation, but nothing concrete. It would suck for it to be gone completely, or to only have film that is questionable in its quality (impossible), but I haven't seen any real numbers supporting the death or rebirth of film. Also, I would imagine that it would be dependent on where you live.
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Old 12-04-2013   #24
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From Freestyle photo:


Dear Valued Freestyle Customer,
Our commitment to traditional photography remains as strong as ever. It seems that many educators are dedicated, as well. With the fall school semester off and running, we are happy to report that film and darkroom paper sales have shown a substantial increase for the first time in four years. This is a great sign as it appears that educational budgets and photo programs have expanded, student enrollment is up and an interest in traditional photography is growing. To better communicate with you about both traditional and digital photography, we will be sending out two separate newsletters, every few months or so. One will focus on digital inkjet printing technology and imaging;the other will focus on darkroom products and information. You have asked us to keep you informed and up to date on the world of photography. Giving you both newsletters should cover your interests whether they are digital, traditional or a mixture of both.
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Old 12-04-2013   #25
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Is there any legitimate data that supports that film has grown over the last few years?……...
Ilford (Harmon) has reported that their B&W film sales have increased the past few years. I can't give you numbers without spending a lot of time rifling through old posts on APUG, but I do recall the thread(s) on this topic several months back.

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Old 12-04-2013   #26
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That is growth in a niche market - good news for Ilford, Foma and Adox, and apparently good enough that someone restarted Ferrania. But on the Kodak scale, that cannot make up for the loss in cinematic release print film or commercial/military/governmental contracts,
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Old 12-04-2013   #27
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See? I come in here being a smartass, making a Mr. Potter firing people around the holidays joke, and someone comes along with actual fact and a bit of film history. Ah, RFF!
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topi...fe-in-blu-ray/

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Old 12-04-2013   #28
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That is growth in a niche market - good news for Ilford, Foma and Adox, and apparently good enough that someone restarted Ferrania. But on the Kodak scale, that cannot make up for the loss in cinematic release print film or commercial/military/governmental contracts,
Eh? Kodak has contracts with all the major Hollywood studios running into 2015. The release film is and has been accounted for, they're not going to be shocked there; a slow decline which is easier to plot as everything in the supply pipeline is done though contracts.

They have contracts which means they must deliver if they default they pay.
Only recently they coated large rolls for the new Star Wars film to be shot next year, they have a full order book and as far as I know we should be safe for building 38 to run until 2015.

The 'Kodak scale' you talk about is a red herring, at the moment Kodak have two coating machines 29N and B38 both 54" making them a smaller unit than Fuji and not much bigger than Ilford in capacity and unlike Ilford they own their factory.

Of all the film companies left they are the best place should the miracle 'niche' become a reality. They have a profitable business and if people continue to use the product they at least stand a chance.

The biggest battle will be the next round of Studio contracts, if they lose the majors they will be left with the stills and archive films not enough to sustain even the downsized unit they have become.
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Old 12-04-2013   #29
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That is growth in a niche market - good news for Ilford, Foma and Adox, and apparently good enough that someone restarted Ferrania. But on the Kodak scale, that cannot make up for the loss in cinematic release print film or commercial/military/governmental contracts,
Asia is a niche market???

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Old 12-04-2013   #30
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Asia is a niche market???

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Future film use is a niche market, anywhere. Mind, niche markets do survive, and are even a good business for those that don't mind growth limits. But I don't see the Perez Kodak anywhere in that game. Whatever the future of Kodak may be, it will be in some other hands...
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Old 12-05-2013   #31
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Eh? Kodak has contracts with all the major Hollywood studios running into 2015. The release film is and has been accounted for, they're not going to be shocked there; a slow decline which is easier to plot as everything in the supply pipeline is done though contracts.

They have contracts which means they must deliver if they default they pay.
Only recently they coated large rolls for the new Star Wars film to be shot next year, they have a full order book and as far as I know we should be safe for building 38 to run until 2015.

The 'Kodak scale' you talk about is a red herring, at the moment Kodak have two coating machines 29N and B38 both 54" making them a smaller unit than Fuji and not much bigger than Ilford in capacity and unlike Ilford they own their factory.

Of all the film companies left they are the best place should the miracle 'niche' become a reality. They have a profitable business and if people continue to use the product they at least stand a chance.

The biggest battle will be the next round of Studio contracts, if they lose the majors they will be left with the stills and archive films not enough to sustain even the downsized unit they have become.

i agree, the next big round for kodak is 2015. i don't think prints will be ordered by the big studios, but for camera negative i keep my fingers crossed. (as of now, there are many high profile directors and cinematographers that prefer to shoot on film, so i am not that afraid.)
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Old 12-05-2013   #32
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I've been watching the film history documentary on TCM the past ten weeks or so. It gave me some hope for film when Mr. Cousins, the documentary's maker, said he had been told that even digital movies are converted to film for preservation.
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Old 12-06-2013   #33
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The 'Kodak scale' you talk about is a red herring, at the moment Kodak have two coating machines 29N and B38 both 54" making them a smaller unit than Fuji and not much bigger than Ilford in capacity and unlike Ilford they own their factory.
I have a little bit to disagree at these points:
1. AFAIK only B38 is still running, all other machines (including 29) are closed or even completely dismantled.
2. Fuji's unit is not bigger. That is the reason why Fuji is still producing lower volume niche products (like Superia 1600, FP100c, E6 films), whereas Kodak has stopped the production of all mid and low volume products.
Kodak is only producing mass market products.
And that of course is not a sustainable strategy for the future.
3. Ilford shows what is possible if you really care for the market, the products and your customers:
Yes, their machine has similar dimensions to Kodaks B38 machine.
Nevertheless Ilford is able to produce lots of niche products there: Ilford is offering about 2400 different products (!!).
Most of them are tiny niche products.

Therefore I am so tired of the Kodak Marketing BS like "we have to stop production of product xy because of too low demand".
Kodak wants only mass market business like in former times, that is the problem.
Their American mentality "only big is beautiful".....
The problem is also, that the management for film in the Personalized Imaging Business is still the old one, which has been responsible for film there the last years.
KPP did not hire a new management.

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Old 12-06-2013   #34
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Their American mentality "only big is beautiful".....
The problem is also, that the management for film in the Personalized Imaging Business is still the old one, which has been responsible for film there the last years.
I don't see such a big problem there - the tier upwards of them is gone, which could be an opportunity for the film managers.

The real issue is that the production is still owned and run by the part of Kodak least interested in film. While I don't believe that that will continue for long, nobody can predict how and with which consequences they will untangle that hampering association...
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Old 12-06-2013   #35
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Kodak's problems are compounded by bad management Ilford had the good luck of having people in charge that are actually interested in the product. Management Buyout vs Pension Fund or better Harvard MBA (Perez and his ilks) vs Craftmen (Ilford). Kodak should put technichians and people that actually like the products they produce in charge of running Kodak. They also should check and recheck their records for mis-management and sue their Harvard MBA (Perez etc...) asses.

To bad Perez is a friend of the current Potus.
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Old 12-09-2013   #36
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Ilford (Harmon) has reported that their B&W film sales have increased the past few years. I can't give you numbers without spending a lot of time rifling through old posts on APUG, but I do recall the thread(s) on this topic several months back.
Jim B.
None of the current manufacturers seem to be public companies with ready sales data (except Fuji, but their film division revenue is not itemized and is negligible compared to the whole behemoth). However, anecdotal evidence from my friends in B&H suggest a stabilized niche market: flat to moderate growth in b&w film sales and a further decline in color film.

Color print paper and darkroom products are probably dying out altogether, but the rest of the market has likely bottomed out. It is so small compared to the old film industry that it is as good as dead for a financial or business analyst. But if you are more interested in the products than in the market capitalization of the industry, then it does not look bad.
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Old 12-10-2013   #37
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None of the current manufacturers seem to be public companies with ready sales data (except Fuji, but their film division revenue is not itemized and is negligible compared to the whole behemoth). However, anecdotal evidence from my friends in B&H suggest a stabilized niche market: flat to moderate growth in b&w film sales and a further decline in color film.

Color print paper and darkroom products are probably dying out altogether, but the rest of the market has likely bottomed out. It is so small compared to the old film industry that it is as good as dead for a financial or business analyst. But if you are more interested in the products than in the market capitalization of the industry, then it does not look bad.

what would be good to know, is weather the color film decline comes from e6, or c41, are the pro c41 films in decline, or it's the cheapo' kodak gold/fuji superia line of films, etc.
i for one buy a lot more pro c41 than ever before.
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Old 12-10-2013   #38
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Eh? Kodak has contracts with all the major Hollywood studios running into 2015. The release film is and has been accounted for, they're not going to be shocked there; a slow decline which is easier to plot as everything in the supply pipeline is done though contracts.

They have contracts which means they must deliver if they default they pay.
Only recently they coated large rolls for the new Star Wars film to be shot next year, they have a full order book and as far as I know we should be safe for building 38 to run until 2015.

The 'Kodak scale' you talk about is a red herring, at the moment Kodak have two coating machines 29N and B38 both 54" making them a smaller unit than Fuji and not much bigger than Ilford in capacity and unlike Ilford they own their factory.

Of all the film companies left they are the best place should the miracle 'niche' become a reality. They have a profitable business and if people continue to use the product they at least stand a chance.

The biggest battle will be the next round of Studio contracts, if they lose the majors they will be left with the stills and archive films not enough to sustain even the downsized unit they have become.
Great information. Thanks!
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Old 12-18-2013   #39
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what would be good to know, is weather the color film decline comes from e6, or c41, are the pro c41 films in decline, or it's the cheapo' kodak gold/fuji superia line of films, etc.
i for one buy a lot more pro c41 than ever before.

well, that answer my question:
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...photo-printing
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Old 12-18-2013   #40
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Does it? 15% up for professional film (which includes all black and white and slide, as far as I can make out) are relevant facts. But 30% down for "overall sales including consumer film" is pointless unless they also explain what "overall" is - ist that all Alaris, or just one section under which film departments are grouped? And is there anything outside film accounted for within the latter? And how is the pro/consumer ratio?
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