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Old 09-23-2019   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
As if it really matters ... but they need to keeping dangling that carrot!
This is true. But I am reconciled to it. I have written about this before - if the production line stop rolling the money soon runs out, the firm collapses and the cameras we take for granted no longer become available. That's the inevitable business model of any company that uses mass production. So they keep "dangling the carrot" as you rightly say. That is OK by me. If it were not for this model all cameras would be hand built by a highly skilled technician and cost what the latest Leica costs. This is not to say Leica is not affected by the same need for new cash flows - its just that the product cycle is longer and the product cost is inevitably higher with that model.
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Old 09-23-2019   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Basic chimping can't be done with this camera. Everyone laughs and mocks chimping but it is a fact to anyone who has watched someone with a digital camera: 99% of the time they take the shot and then review it on the back screen.


Just try doing that with this ridiculous design that the X Pro 3 has. You have to lower the camera, open the screen, and then review. Once completed you have to close the screen. Yes you can use the viewfinder, but that is not a common chimping method.


By any metric the X Pro 3 camera is waaay less flexible than the X Pro 2.
Have you used an xpro camera?

In optical viewfinder or EVF you can choose to have an image preview immediately after taking a shot. If using optical VF, the evf slide quickly switches in and you get a preview for 1.5 or 3 seconds or till you half tap the shutter. The whole thing is pretty instant and seamless and it's way better than having to remove the camera from your face.

So chimping is not an issue provided you use the viewfinder, and it's a viewfinder centric camera.
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Old 09-23-2019   #83
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Old 09-23-2019   #84
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Is it full frame?
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Old 09-23-2019   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
There’s still a joystick for navigating and buttons, dials, and rings for accessing popular functions.
... and they're on the X-Pro2. But taking away five buttons is still asinine. It benefits the manufacturer, not the user.
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Old 09-23-2019   #86
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I suspect that all the nay saying will have little effect on sales. Nor do I understand how users are saying less capable than the XPro2. Again, not an XPro user but am stunned by the X100F so figure this new XPro is a showcase for the X100 upgrade.

Now, I don't chimp. I own the MP240 and X100F and do review the photos in the camera after a day shooting but I seldom, if ever, review photos right after I take them. My biggest frustration with the X100F is having to fiddle with the viewfinder vs LCD selector switch. I like the viewfinder but if I loan camera I am often putting it on LCD for others to use and I prefer to work the menu on the LCD.

Again, if I did not have too much money in cameras already I would be looking seriously at the XPro series.
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Old 09-23-2019   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-9 View Post
Dude.. Did Fuji toss your salad or something?

Chill. We understand you do not like it.

If Fuji tossed my salad, I'd be pretty happy, assuming Fuji was a sprightly young Japanese woman and not some grizzled grey haired old dude.
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Old 09-23-2019   #88
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The only times i review images taken with an EVF camera are when I want to show clients, or I'm in downtime between shoots. The EVF image tells me right away if the photo is right, or close enough. Ironically, I mainly review images if I'm shooting with an OVF camera like a DSLR or rangefinder. The placement of the LCD on the X-Pro 3 makes no difference to me reviewing the images.
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Old 09-24-2019   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Basic chimping can't be done with this camera. Everyone laughs and mocks chimping but it is a fact to anyone who has watched someone with a digital camera: 99% of the time they take the shot and then review it on the back screen.


Just try doing that with this ridiculous design that the X Pro 3 has. You have to lower the camera, open the screen, and then review. Once completed you have to close the screen. Yes you can use the viewfinder, but that is not a common chimping method.


By any metric the X Pro 3 camera is waaay less flexible than the X Pro 2.
Should be noted that not everyone just uses the rear screen for chimping. If I'm out shooting on the street with mirrorless I'll probably be using live view on the rear LCD for shooting, just as much as the viewfinder. It's one of the best things for digital vs film in being able to choose how you shoot.

Take that away, and substitute it with a simulation reminder, and it's just going to make me want to shoot a film camera rather than the XPro3.

Rather than trying to make digital cameras into film ones Fuji, just bring out a new film camera already.
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Old 09-24-2019   #90
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Hopefully the wider view of the OVF includes an increase in the magnification.

Otherwise I will stick with my custom X-Pro1
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=154737
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Old 09-24-2019   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
But will the 3 be able to take better pics than the 2?

Does it have a better sensor?
Does it have better af?
Does it have better film modes?
Does it have a better VF?

I don’t care about chimping because I don’t.
It will most likely sport the same package as the X-T3. If that is the case:

The new sensor isn't necessarily better than the old one (other than video specs);
It does have improved AF;
It does have an extra film mode;
It does have an improved OVF (more eye relief I assume).

But no, it won't take better pictures than the 2. It's just another camera...
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Old 09-24-2019   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
But will the 3 be able to take better pics than the 2?

Does it have a better sensor?
Does it have better af?
Does it have better film modes?
Does it have a better VF?

I don’t care about chimping because I don’t.
They are already said yes to 2 of the 4 questions you have... we just don't have the answer to the sensor and AF. AF will be better... it's been 4 years and recent Fuji cameras are better in AF.
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Old 09-24-2019   #93
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Originally Posted by ruby.monkey View Post
... and they're on the X-Pro2. But taking away five buttons is still asinine. It benefits the manufacturer, not the user.
I understand...but I do not use them. I also have the ability to adapt to my camera. But it's ok...you can choose not to buy.
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Old 09-24-2019   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
It will most likely sport the same package as the X-T3.
I'm not sure that will be the case... because the X-T30 for $899 has that too. It'll be a hard sell if they simply have the X-T30 specs in a X-Pro3.
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Old 09-24-2019   #95
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Makes you wonder what Fuji (and everyone else) are going to do to get people to upgrade given apsc sensor tech appears to have hit a ceiling for the time being.

I guess that's why they're doing the titanium body.
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Old 09-24-2019   #96
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Originally Posted by gavinlg View Post
Have you used an xpro camera?

In optical viewfinder or EVF you can choose to have an image preview immediately after taking a shot. If using optical VF, the evf slide quickly switches in and you get a preview for 1.5 or 3 seconds or till you half tap the shutter. The whole thing is pretty instant and seamless and it's way better than having to remove the camera from your face.

So chimping is not an issue provided you use the viewfinder, and it's a viewfinder centric camera.

Yes I have used an X Pro 1 and own an X100. I'm aware that chimping is possible through the viewfinder. The current sh!tstorm over this camera shows that the vast majority of people find this an unacceptable solution, as do I.
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Old 09-24-2019   #97
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I understand...but I do not use them. I also have the ability to adapt to my camera. But it's ok...you can choose not to buy.

You are free to not use buttons if that is your preference. Those who want to use them no longer have any option. You advocate for less choice for users? Fascinating.
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Old 09-24-2019   #98
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Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post

Rather than trying to make digital cameras into film ones Fuji, just bring out a new film camera already.

No argument there! I'd be all over a new Klasse camera from Fujifilm. Sadly, Fujifilm isnt interested in that.
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Old 09-24-2019   #99
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Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
Makes you wonder what Fuji (and everyone else) are going to do to get people to upgrade given apsc sensor tech appears to have hit a ceiling for the time being.

I guess that's why they're doing the titanium body.
Yeah, true... add to the aesthetics and make unconventional choices or keep adding more and more video features. I’ll take the former... though I’m not sure I am ready to pay a lot more for superfluous features. However, titanium is as superfluous as video for me.
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Old 09-24-2019   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
Should be noted that not everyone just uses the rear screen for chimping...
I chimp rarely… mostly when out shooting I use the rear screen for checking focus with the magnifier facility and check the histogram for highlight exposure, both things I find rather difficult to do through the EVF.

The idea that if I want to do the above with the X-Pro3 I will have to flip a screen every time, is for me definitely a negative.
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Old 09-24-2019   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmrider View Post
I suspect that all the nay saying will have little effect on sales.

Ignoring the preferences of your customer base is often an excellent strategy to boosting sales. Not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmrider View Post
Nor do I understand how users are saying less capable than the XPro2.

Seriously? You can't see that taking away the back screen would affect users who actually used it? That's an impressive lack of imagination.
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Old 09-24-2019   #102
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Originally Posted by Yokosuka_Mike View Post
I think that the only problem Fujifilm will have selling the X-Pro3 camera is keeping up with demand. That camera is going to be flying off the shelf!

Just like the X-H1.
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Old 09-24-2019   #103
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I'm not sure that will be the case... because the X-T30 for $899 has that too. It'll be a hard sell if they simply have the X-T30 specs in a X-Pro3.
The $699 (kit price), bottom-of-the-line X-A7 has this same processor package as well, just with standard 24MP bayer sensor, which had been more than enough for years. Same AF, same speed for less than half the price of the flagship X-T3...just imagine. Same for Canon and Sony's latest APS-C offerings. Very powerful entry level cameras are becoming the new norm.

I don't think Fuji will pour in extra sauce to further differentiate the X-Pro 3 spec-wise. Features has been what mainly differentiate the tiers in the current lineup.
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Old 09-24-2019   #104
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
You are free to not use buttons if that is your preference. Those who want to use them no longer have any option. You advocate for less choice for users? Fascinating.
Simplification of interface IS a choice. That's why leica's are svelte to use, and Sony's are crap. Some of the best cameras designs require you to interact with them in a specific way.
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Old 09-24-2019   #105
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Originally Posted by Brian Atherton View Post
I chimp rarely… mostly when out shooting I use the rear screen for checking focus with the magnifier facility and check the histogram for highlight exposure, both things I find rather difficult to do through the EVF.

The idea that if I want to do the above with the X-Pro3 I will have to flip a screen every time, is for me definitely a negative.
The histogram should be available in the small lcd ...
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Old 09-24-2019   #106
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Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
The $699 (kit price), bottom-of-the-line X-A7 has this same processor package as well, just with standard 24MP bayer sensor, which had been more than enough for years. Same AF, same speed for less than half the price of the flagship X-T3...just imagine. Same for Canon and Sony's latest APS-C offerings. Very powerful entry level cameras are becoming the new norm.

I don't think Fuji will pour in extra sauce to further differentiate the X-Pro 3 spec-wise. Features has been what mainly differentiate the tiers in the current lineup.
Actually... historically, the X-Pro series gets the new sensor first. Also, I do not think the X-A7 has the same AF as the X-T3. The X-T30 does but historically the Bayer sensor cameras have dumbed down AF.
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Old 09-24-2019   #107
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Actually... historically, the X-Pro series gets the new sensor first.
I don't know. I assume Fuji had break from previous cycles (and adopted new strategy) with the rather hastily release of the X-T3.

Besieds that, I can't see how an even newer sensor could benefit the X-Pro's intended users (=still shooters) much. Performance has been stagnant for several years, there's little chance the next one could improve by a significant margin, other than the usual megapixel & video tweaks. And it'll come at an extra cost on top of the camera's already costly gimmicks.

Anyway, RFF could always use another "I don't need more megapixels" thread...
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Old 09-24-2019   #108
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And I have to wonder how many XPro2 users are posting negative comments on the XPro3-less then 1%. I suspect most photographers are out shooting and not worrying about a camera who we have only seen in brochures. Again, no sure how it is less capable or why sales would be negative compared to XPro2.

Think some here need to get a life.
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Old 09-24-2019   #109
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Just like the X-H1.
Interesting. Here's my experience:

Earlier this year I had an extended loan of the X-H1 with a view to purchase.

My main thought was its image stabilisation and how useful it might be, as now I’m finding sometimes that it isn’t so easy to keep a camera steady. Certainly I was impressed and it definitely worked a dream for me.

Also what immediately impressed me was the superb viewfinder: so bright and large. Second, the position of the release button on the integral grip: it fell to hand in the right place and is very comfortable.

Main negative is the lack of an exposure compensation dial because Fujifilm put a LCD panel where it should be.

In the end, reluctantly, I decided not to buy: despite the X-H1 being a nice size and the IBIS would have suited my needs admirably, it was just too heavy.
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Old 09-24-2019   #110
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Originally Posted by ktmrider View Post
Again, no sure how it is less capable or why sales would be negative compared to XPro2.

It's real simple. WIth the X Pro 2, after one takes a shot, one can pause and review it on the back screen, without any need to use one's hands. With the X Pro 3, that is impossible. You have to remove a hand, pull down the screen, review the image (and adjust it with FIVE less buttons) and then replace the screen, and replace your hand to the shooting position. You think that amount of tap dancing is the same as what is needed for the X Pro 2? Seriously?



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Think some here need to get a life.

You should follow your own advice.
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Old 09-24-2019   #111
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
I don't know. I assume Fuji had break from previous cycles (and adopted new strategy) with the rather hastily release of the X-T3.

Besieds that, I can't see how an even newer sensor could benefit the X-Pro's intended users (=still shooters) much. Performance has been stagnant for several years, there's little chance the next one could improve by a significant margin, other than the usual megapixel & video tweaks. And it'll come at an extra cost on top of the camera's already costly gimmicks.

Anyway, RFF could always use another "I don't need more megapixels" thread...
The X-T3 is Fuji’s mainstream camera. It is released a lot more frequently. It sells well. It had the newest tech at that time... true. But it’s been a year or more and like I said a low end camera has those specs.

A new sensor is just one of those things that happen with cameras. They progress. It is possible there isn’t any other sensor they can use. However, historically speaking... the x-pro is generally the first to get new tech when it is released. The first with the 16mp and the first with the 24mp sensor. More MPs don’t cost more. It just happens as technology marches on.
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Old 09-24-2019   #112
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I don't know why but I have this nagging suspicion that 'Ted Striker' doesn't like the X-Pro 3...
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Old 09-24-2019   #113
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The X-T3 is Fuji’s mainstream camera. It is released a lot more frequently. It sells well. It had the newest tech at that time... true. But it’s been a year or more and like I said a low end camera has those specs.

A new sensor is just one of those things that happen with cameras. They progress. It is possible there isn’t any other sensor they can use. However, historically speaking... the x-pro is generally the first to get new tech when it is released. The first with the 16mp and the first with the 24mp sensor. More MPs don’t cost more. It just happens as technology marches on.
We'll know next month...

Personally i won't hold my breath for it. Less hope, less disappointment...
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Old 09-24-2019   #114
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This has devolved into a chimping vs no chimping thread. Good thing Fuji will soon have models to address the needs of both camps.
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Old 09-24-2019   #115
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This has devolved into a chimping vs no chimping thread. Good thing Fuji will soon have models to address the needs of both camps.

You do know that one can turn off the rear display on an X Pro 2 don't you? That camera met both needs.



The X Pro 3 does not.
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Old 09-24-2019   #116
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I understand everything about this camera except the need for titanium. It's just going make it more expensive than it needs to be. The only thing I wanted the X-Pro2 to improve upon was to have better eye relief and a larger VF. Oh and release with a lower price like the X-T3 did versus the X-T2.

My guess is someone on the Marketing team was a fan of the Leica M-D Type 262 or just wanted to move this into an even more niche market than it already is.
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Old 09-24-2019   #117
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Originally Posted by B-9 View Post
New sims.

...

Why did it take this long to replicate features the RD1 had from the start?

...
If you read other forums where comments about the X-Pro 3 are mostly ridicules, you will see how come it took so long.

This is a niche product. Niches are the last market large companies pursue because it is more profitable to address larger market segments first.
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Old 09-24-2019   #118
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For those who haven't seen it yet, Fuji's design rationale for the X-Pro3 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cvNBULS3tM The clip starts at 31 min.
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Old 09-24-2019   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
But will the 3 be able to take better pics than the 2?

Does it have a better sensor?
Does it have better af?
Does it have better film modes?
Does it have a better VF?

...
  1. The sensor will be incrementally better. The X-T3 has similar dynamic range at ISO 80 as the X-T2 has a ISO 200. The X-T3 has superior ISO invariance (lower read noise). The X-T3 has less internal sensor heating. The low light sensitivity for the X-T2 and X-T3 are essentially identical.
  2. No details about the AF yet. Every one of the 4 newer X-Series cameras I bought since 2012 had better AF and fly-by-wire MF than the previous model. This doesn't mean the X-Pro 3 will have better AF than the X-Pro 2. But it probably will since the X-T3 has better AF than the X-T2.
  3. There is a new Classic Negative film simulation. This simulates FUJICOLOR Superia ISO 100 film rendering. Is it better? I don't know.
  4. Both the EVF AND OVF are significantly upgraded.

As far as I'm concerned the X-Pro cameras are all about using the OVF to compose while seeing what's outside the image-frame border estimates. This is the only compelling reason to own a X-Pro camera.

Having owned a X-Pro 1 and as a current X-Pro 2 owner, I am certain the X-Pro 3 will produce significantly superior technical image quality and and user experience compared to the X-Pro 1. I suspect the difference between the X-Pro 2 and X-Pro 3 will be less significant. I think it really depends on the EVF/OVF improvements and on how one prefers to focus. I don't use all of the AF capabilities of the X-Pro 2 (although I found they performed very well when I tried them). I prefer to use focus and recompose as I did with film RF cameras. But many could make good use of the more effective AF used in the X-T3.
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Old 09-24-2019   #120
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Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
Other than the color part, it looks like the E-ink display on top of the GFX-50S which can be left always ON, even with the camera powered off. It consumes no power.

Whichever type of display it is, I think it could definitely be turned off...

If you remove the battery it would not drain the power
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