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Old 01-30-2010   #41
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Roger, if I had unlimited funds. I might own that combo. But, I don't, so I won't (at least not soon). On the dilemma of choosing between a free M9/Noct, a Ferrari and a boat, I'm sorry to disappoint anyone, but I've owned a boat (glad to be rid of it), I have Leicas and I have never owned a Ferrari, so I'd opt for the car. After becoming a menace on the public roads, I'd probably sell the car and use the proceeds to buy an MP, some new glass and a round-the-world travel ticket to make pictures in far flung places. $18K is lot of lettuce.
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Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
A fraction of the price of a Ferrari, and half the price of even a modest boat. Why do so many people have so much of a problem with Leicas? Because they're smaller than Ferraris or boats? Offer me a Ferrari, a boat and a Leica, to use not to sell, and it's a dead easy choice for me.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 01-30-2010   #42
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That Hasselblad would wear you out if wore it around your neck.
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Originally Posted by Brian Sweeney View Post
I have. Work bought it. Digital cameras used to be expensive.

Some of them still are:

http://www.adorama.com/HSCF39MSH2K.h...26480769190063

But you can get it for Monochrome and Infrared.
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Old 01-30-2010   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Why do so many people have so much of a problem with Leicas?
Dear Roger,

Probably the same reason why people have such problems with Apple

That said, I guess people have to recognize "brand new" Leica equipment for what it is; luxury. Yes, it performs a function and likely performs it very well. If I want to shoot with a f0.95 lens, well, then I guess there's no other choice BUT Leica. That said, I'm happy to shoot with what I have for my own "work" - For my clients, sure, if I could afford it and I could use it, I'd shoot with Leica - but for $18K, that's my current Nikon D700 kits two times over

But as you've said in the past, if folks can afford it and they want it, then who cares what Leica charges - there's clearly someone (or some people) out there that will buy it.

Just like Apple

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 01-30-2010   #44
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Originally Posted by Pablito View Post
Oh, maybe because the 1.1 Nokton is a better lens at a small fraction of the price? It's certainly a better lens by my standards. The last thing I want in a lens is "character."
In what way do you think the Nokton f1.1 is a better lens than the Leica 0.95 asph? Its lighter, thats true, but optically there does not seem to be much of a contest.

From what I have seen (and I will admin this is limited to screen shots and reviews) the Leica looks far superior in every regard with if anything them most 'neutral' bokeh I have seen aside from the 35 summarit 2.5 or 50 lux pre asph. Online tests also show noticeably better resolution on centre wide open. You would expect this for the price difference, however. I do not like the OOF rendition of teh Nokton one bit. I am no lens snob, currently favouring a 35 Pancake II and Summarit for 35mm and mostly non Leica lenses in other FLs, but I think the OOF from the Nokton is often plain ugly. That matters to me, with a fast lens, because most of the image is going to be OOF, its just a questions of subject background separation distance.

Most people acknowledge teh Nokton 1.1 is sharper on centre than the old F1 Noctilux but thats not the lens we are talking about.
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Old 01-30-2010   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Da Re View Post
Just curious since this camera and lens is listed as used what would it cost brand new for the same setup?

Michael
If you check B&H, the Noctilux is $10,495 while the M9 is $6,995 which suggests a similar kit would be $17,490 from B&H (Not including shipping and/or taxes)



Dave

ETA: Oh.. and BOTH those items are in stock - you best be ordering now or you may be caught short
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Old 01-30-2010   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robklurfield View Post
That Hasselblad would wear you out if wore it around your neck.
It is not as heavy as my DCS200ir. Or Nikon E3. A Leica M9ir would be perfect.
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Old 01-30-2010   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsang View Post
If you check B&H, the Noctilux is $10,495 while the M9 is $6,995 which suggests a similar kit would be $17,490 from B&H (Not including shipping and/or taxes)



Dave

ETA: Oh.. and BOTH those items are in stock - you best be ordering now or you may be caught short
I was just getting ready to drive to B&H to pick them up but then I realized that I'm using my Ferrari to tow the boat. Just my luck!
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Old 01-30-2010   #48
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It's a luxury good if someone else spends more on it than you would. Mephistos are luxury, but they make my feet happier. A rangefinder usually makes me happier than an SLR and I'll buy a digital one when I can afford it. If I could afford the M-9 and Noct., I would have no trouble carrying it around and using it. But I'd rather have a Contax G2 digital even at the same price and do without f0.95.
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Old 01-30-2010   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Da Re View Post
I was just getting ready to drive to B&H to pick them up but then I realized that I'm using my Ferrari to tow the boat. Just my luck!
What's wrong with your other Ferrari?

Cheers,

R.
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Old 01-30-2010   #50
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But, Roger, I don't think it can be reduced to sour grapes. Even if I could afford an M9 + Noctilux, I wouldn't buy it at this price. The thought makes me a bit sick. There are many people who can afford luxury items who do not buy luxury items. And not because they're cheap people.

(That's a solid joke. And my grandparents were all Russians.)
And that's a solid observation. I'm not fortunate enough to be able to afford something like that right now, but I know a number of people here in LA who could drop that amount without batting an eye. But they wouldn't. Because one of the reasons that they're able to live in Bel Air or Beverly Hills is because everything is viewed in a cost/benefit relationship and has been for most, if not all, of their lives. If a camera is $700 and gets you to 96% of what you'd get with the Leica package, that's good enough, and the rest of the money can go towards a better performing asset.

That said, if someone is more than an amateur or hobbyist, I think the choice is easier because the camera has the potential to pay for itself. It's one thing if you by an $18,000 package that immediately begins to depreciate, but another if you're generating content that offsets the price.

One quick final thought - the Alden 405 "Indy" leather boot. It's $350, but worth every penny.
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Old 01-30-2010   #51
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And that's a solid observation. I'm not fortunate enough to be able to afford something like that right now, but I know a number of people here in LA who could drop that amount without batting an eye. But they wouldn't. Because one of the reasons that they're able to live in Bel Air or Beverly Hills is because everything is viewed in a cost/benefit relationship and has been for most, if not all, of their lives. If a camera is $700 and gets you to 96% of what you'd get with the Leica package, that's good enough, and the rest of the money can go towards a better performing asset.

That said, if someone is more than an amateur or hobbyist, I think the choice is easier because the camera has the potential to pay for itself. It's one thing if you by an $18,000 package that immediately begins to depreciate, but another if you're generating content that offsets the price.

One quick final thought - the Alden 405 "Indy" leather boot. It's $350, but worth every penny.
First, you're repeating my point: everyone has different priorities, so everyone has a different cost-benefit analysis.

Second, are you serious about '96% of what you'd get with a Leica for $700'? Yeah, sure, there are dozens of other full-frame RF cameras out there, at $700 with lens.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 01-30-2010   #52
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I have a Nikon for digital and a Contax for a range finder. Both take wonderful pictures. Now with that said I would love to have that Leica set up just to impress people when I go to the Virgin Islands on vacation. That would be S%&t hot!!
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Old 01-30-2010   #53
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Another consideration is 'what can one afford to lose.' I do consider this when I carry equipment in unsafe areas - what would total loss mean to me. Thus far I have not had issues, though on my penultimate foray a five year old girl did slap the nose of my 35 Summarit Dicey stuff.
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Old 01-30-2010   #54
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I guess like others have said, it's all relative. if you can afford it, good for you and you should get what you want. I admit to not liking the posts by the rich newbie with the M9/noct and the pictures look like out of focus crap. What ever floats your boat (or Ferrari). I have a neighbor who went to buy a Ferrari and came back with a Porsche. When I asked him to show me the engine, he had no idea where it was. As a car guy, this really bothered me but if he got the M9/noct .95 to take kiddie birthday pics, I would insist on an intervention...
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Old 01-30-2010   #55
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Quote:
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First, you're repeating my point: everyone has different priorities, so everyone has a different cost-benefit analysis.
If no one else repeated your point, this thread would be two posts long.

Cheers.
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Old 01-30-2010   #56
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It is an astonishing camera and an astonishing lense.



Please continue
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Old 01-30-2010   #57
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we are all jealous. nice shot.

if you've got that kit, enjoy it. in the meantime, save some money, however, for tune-ups on the Ferrari as the engine service visits with belt changes can exceed the cost of the Noctilux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urban_alchemist View Post
It is an astonishing camera and an astonishing lense.



Please continue
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Old 01-30-2010   #58
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money burning a hole in my pocket!!
I wish....
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Old 01-31-2010   #59
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I am putting together a group of M9 wanna be owners to rob banks and casinos. We are currently accepting applications.

Seriously, how can you afford it otherwise?
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Old 01-31-2010   #60
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in the meantime, save some money, however, for tune-ups on the Ferrari as the engine service visits with belt changes can exceed the cost of the Noctilux.
Fortunately for me, Oyster cards require no such belt-changes, just presenting the occasional flashing red light, easily extinguished with a cheeky fiver...
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Old 01-31-2010   #61
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I cannot imagine walking around with $18K dangling from my neck.
I drove an $80K car though heavy freeway traffic to get an oil change for a friend. Not something I relished, but after a time, you realize it's just a car, just money, and worse things could happen. Why obsess over something so meaningless? Insurance was invented for a reason. I'd have a harder time in the same traffic driving my own car if I didn't have insurance, and it doesn't cost maybe a tenth of that car. Even having insurance, I have less tolerance for disaster than the owner of the expensive car.

But I routinely drag my camera all across the earth as if it didn't matter. Seems to me losing my camera would hit me harder than someone able to finance a $15K kit.

That said, I was struck by how obviously the person selling the M9+lens was so clearly over their head. Or a liar.
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Old 01-31-2010   #62
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I drove an $80K car though heavy freeway traffic to get an oil change for a friend. Not something I relished, but after a time, you realize it's just a car, just money, and worse things could happen. Why obsess over something so meaningless? Insurance was invented for a reason.

But I routinely drag my camera all across the earth as if it didn't matter.
+1

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Old 01-31-2010   #63
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That said, I was struck by how obviously the person selling the M9+lens was so clearly over their head. Or a liar.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at here when you say this person was clearly over their head or a liar! Over their head in what way or lying about what in particular?
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Old 01-31-2010   #64
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About 20 years ago I was driving a Jaguar XJS V12 with about 1000 miles on the clock when I hit a wet patch on Mulholland in LA (overwatered lawn). It was interesting! The car was going sideways at about 45 degrees to the direction of travel. Fortunately it's a sweet-handling car and I managed to straighten it up. Even more fortunately, it belonged to Jaguar, not me: BMW once expressed surprise at my returning a car unscratched because "journalists always bend them."

But yes. It's just a car. Just as a camera is just a camera. If you've bought it and can't afford to use it, you don't own it: it owns you. Walking around with $18000 in cameras around your neck is no different (and I've done that, too).

The point is, it's a lot easier to do than to imagine.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 01-31-2010   #65
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As to the question of "How can you afford it"- either find a job where the M9 makes a profit for you, such as photographing weddings, or one that it becomes an instrument required for the work. In either case it becomes how can you not afford it.

In the case that the M9 is for fun, not profit, then discretionary funds are required. A lot of people do not have funds for this, and even if they did - would not spend them on an M9. Next time you take a drive, look around at the number of $40,000+ cars around you. Guy up the street from me has a Lamborghini. Next door neighbor has a Harley. Lots of Lexus's and other expensive cars in the neighborhood. The difference in what I drive and any of them would pay for this camera/lens combo. But I have not had a car payment since 1982, just paid cash for new cars.

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M9 + NoctiLux
Old 02-01-2010   #66
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M9 + NoctiLux

I may as well buy the M9+Noctilux since I cannot go down to my dealer and buy a Toyota anymore
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Old 02-01-2010   #67
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I forgive anyone who spends whatever on whatever if they are able to use it to the full and are looking for more.However the endless wishy washy bokeh shots make me want to find the nearest thief and slip him an information pack.I might just lend him my car for the getaway.Now if you have the balls to wander around London at night with this kit taking the sort of shots this lens was designed for then youre one of the few that deserve it.If youre not then please sell it to me and make a huge financial loss,....you know you want to,.think of it as therapy.

p.s. i do realise that if someone was to buy a machine gun my philosophy might have its down side.

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Old 02-02-2010   #68
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I had great fun with my old f1.0 and M8 a few months ago in Zurich. I had just moved to a new city, was completely alone, and grabbed the combo to try and get a feel for the city at night. I doubt I would have been able to be as completely inconspicuous without such a fast lense. I called the series "Searching for the Swiss Soul (at night)", and though it's not strictly relevant here - wrong lense - there's a slideshow if you're interested:

http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q...660%40N06&ss=2

I haven't had much time with the lense as I've been abroad without it, but as I took some photos this week - I very much look forward to the opportunity to do the same again with the f.095.





It won't be for everyone, but I personally find my Noctilii my most go-to lenses... and on the M9 they're just a dream...
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Old 02-02-2010   #69
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great series
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Old 02-02-2010   #70
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Poor little piggy!
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Old 02-02-2010   #71
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great series
Cheers

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Poor little piggy!
Two seconds later he hacked off his head!
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Old 02-02-2010   #72
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Good point Roger. Yachts and Ferraris are also unnecessarily ostentatious.

I don't think the problem is with Leica. It's with certain products Leica offers. In fact, it's not a 'problem' at all. It's just that some people, many of them Leica users, think it's kind of funny to spend $18,000 on a camera and a lens.

I'm sure there are many fishermen that bristle when a yacht steers through their waters...
Woke up this morning. Pelting rain. Got into my Ferrari in one of my 4-car garages. Put it in reverse and floored it. Forgot the boat was parked in the driveway. Crawled out to take photos for my insurance guy with the M9. Forgot it is not weatherproof. Mephistos in knee deep water leaked like a sieve. Kidskin leather no less. Depression creeping in when the alarm went off. Looked out the window and the Honda Civic is still there on the street. Elated, walked to office with a smile and a jig.
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