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Close-ups of aperture and shutter operation
Old 01-14-2011   #1
tapesonthefloor
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Close-ups of aperture and shutter operation

Fuji Guys - FinePix X100 Shutter & Aperture Demo

(Though regrettably the digital shutter noise is still turned on. Blech.)
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Old 01-14-2011   #2
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The way this camera is being marketed/promoted is bizarre.

Before long there will be planes flying over cities dropping propaganda leaflets ... and loud speakers on towers blaring out information about the X100's virtues!

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Old 01-14-2011   #3
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I actually think I would much prefer to set aperture with a command wheel on the back of the camera, like a DSLR, instead of the lens barrel.
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Old 01-14-2011   #4
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Samples! I want actual samples from this camera!!!!!
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Old 01-14-2011   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapesonthefloor View Post
(Though regrettably the digital shutter noise is still turned on. Blech.)
And it beeps when you change the aperture.
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Old 01-14-2011   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNNY View Post
And it beeps when you change the aperture.
Until I turn it off, it does.
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Old 01-14-2011   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
I actually think I would much prefer to set aperture with a command wheel on the back of the camera, like a DSLR, instead of the lens barrel.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


Seriously, I really hate that stuff. This is the first digital camera that I find interesting, just because of the regular (old school) manual operation. If somebody gave a Canon 5D I would just sell it and buy a 35mm f1.4 lens for my Rolleiflex SL35.
But this camera I might actually buy and use it only for color, and Sl35 only for B&W.
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Old 01-14-2011   #8
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Weird video:

If the diaphragm coses when pressing the shutter release to its first stop (and I suppose it is doing autofocus too), then the sensor will (a) receive less light, making AF more difficult), and (b) the sensor will see more DOF, making accurate focusing even more difficult.

Can anybody offer some more explanation? IMO, this way of operating seems somewhat absurd to me.
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Old 01-14-2011   #9
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I assume that half pressing the shutter button does the AF and closes the blades ? For pre-focus and recompose ....

Do I count 8 or 9 blades in the lens ? (9 would be nice).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
The way this camera is being marketed/promoted is bizarre.
Leica-style, Keith.
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Old 01-14-2011   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapesonthefloor View Post
(Though regrettably the digital shutter noise is still turned on. Blech.)[/size]
We've been having this conversation on Twitter already, but I'm not hearing a digital shutter noise there myself; I think if it was it would be much louder than the 'snick' of the aperture blades. They sound pretty similar in volume to me on that video- and both much softer than the horrible beep that was turned off for the second half of the recording...
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Old 01-14-2011   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catto View Post
We've been having this conversation on Twitter already, but I'm not hearing a digital shutter noise there myself; I think if it was it would be much louder than the 'snick' of the aperture blades. They sound pretty similar in volume to me on that video- and both much softer than the horrible beep that was turned off for the second half of the recording...
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I could go either way. I *think* it sounds like a digital shutter noise is being plaid, it sounds tinny and fake anyway.

I just don't understand why they bothered with a video this way. Do they really leave the audio cues on for shooting this thing? They would get annoying as hell after 5 seconds. The only excuse would be if the aspects of firmware that allow you to turn it off isn't finished yet.
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Old 01-14-2011   #12
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Definitely a weird little video.
I'm assuming the aperture starts full open to acquire CDAF and then closes down to the chosen aperture, all occurring at half press.
Thats some fast AF.
I dig the video, its totally gear-head porn.
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Old 01-14-2011   #13
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I highly doubt that's an electronic shutter sound. Sounds very mechanical to me.
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Old 01-14-2011   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferider View Post
I assume that half pressing the shutter button does the AF and closes the blades ? For pre-focus and recompose ....

Do I count 8 or 9 blades in the lens ? (9 would be nice).



Leica-style, Keith.
I read that it uses a 9 blade aperture and 4 blade shutter mechanism
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viewfinder
Old 01-15-2011   #15
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viewfinder

Here you have a rather messy view of the viewfinder. I think it wasn't posted before:

http://photorumors.com/2011/01/13/de...id-viewfinder/

It looks quite good.
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Old 01-15-2011   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdigital View Post
I highly doubt that's an electronic shutter sound. Sounds very mechanical to me.
I think logically it is there. Why would a camera maker add an audio beep to the aperture change (really, *** is up with that?) but not an audio shutter noise? Most cameras have only a shutter sound, so if they go to the trouble of adding beeps and blurbles to all the other functions, you can rest assured there is an audio shutter noise, and if the fujiguys don't have sense enough (or possibly the ability in current firmware) to turn off the audio cues for aperture change, I doubt they would turn off the shutter sound.
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Old 01-15-2011   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay View Post
Weird video:

If the diaphragm coses when pressing the shutter release to its first stop (and I suppose it is doing autofocus too), then the sensor will (a) receive less light, making AF more difficult), and (b) the sensor will see more DOF, making accurate focusing even more difficult.

Can anybody offer some more explanation? IMO, this way of operating seems somewhat absurd to me.
I believe the shutter action sequence is:
  1. Shutter opened for O/EVF + AF-S/C and AE
  2. Upon tripping shutter...sensor acquires last AF+AE data
  3. Shutter/diaphragm close + IF
  4. Shutter O/C [exposure]
  5. Shutter reopens...
The X100 shutter lag is said to be 0.01s or ~10ms. This time budget will have to accommodate Actions 2 and 3. Action 2 is electronic and lightning fast, that leaves almost all 10ms for Action 3.

The X100 is capable of 5F/s. Even if the shutter is set at 1/15s or ~66ms, 5 exposures only requires ~333ms...plenty of time left for 5 sets of Action 3.

This video is the first useful video to me.

Last edited by Frankie : 01-15-2011 at 10:12. Reason: clarify
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Old 01-15-2011   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
I believe the shutter action sequence is:
  1. Shutter opened for O/EVF + AF-S/C and AE
  2. Sensor acquires last AF+AE data
  3. Shutter/diaphragm close + IF
  4. Shutter O/C [exposure]
  5. Shutter reopens...
The X100 shutter lag is said to be 0.01s or ~10ms. This time budget will have to accommodate Actions 2 and 3. Action 2 is electronic and lightning fast, that leaves almost all 10ms for Action 3.

The X100 is capable of 5F/s. Even if the shutter is set at 1/15s or ~66ms, 5 exposures only requires ~333ms...plenty of time left for 5 sets of Action 3
Another thing I just thought of. This video could be the behavior only in that "ovf with elect" mode the fujiguys spoke of earlier. Where when you half press you get a preview of the exposure (which would require either a digital fake of the aperture affect, or the more likely we are seeing here, a manual closing of the aperture like a dof preview button). It's possible that without that mode enabled (ovf with elect), the aperture only closes upon full shutter press.
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Old 01-15-2011   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkrz View Post
Here you have a rather messy view of the viewfinder. I think it wasn't posted before:

http://photorumors.com/2011/01/13/de...id-viewfinder/

It looks quite good.
Plenty of pictures and videos exist that shows only selected features displayed.

I believe the X100 allows for user selection and [hopefully] display arrangement in the EVF.
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Old 01-15-2011   #20
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Want to jump straight to the part that shows the shutter AND watch it in slowmo? Use this link: http://bit.ly/f9hjhu (click "slow" to get it to play in slow motion)

Last edited by videogamemaker : 01-15-2011 at 05:22.
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Old 01-15-2011   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videogamemaker View Post
Another thing I just thought of. This video could be the behavior only in that "ovf with elect" mode the fujiguys spoke of earlier. Where when you half press you get a preview of the exposure (which would require either a digital fake of the aperture affect, or the more likely we are seeing here, a manual closing of the aperture like a dof preview button). It's possible that without that mode enabled (ovf with elect), the aperture only closes upon full shutter press.
I agree...likely similar to the EVF display in the Pany G1.
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Old 01-15-2011   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
Plenty of pictures and videos exist that shows only selected features displayed.

I believe the X100 allows for user selection and [hopefully] display arrangement in the EVF.
Even 50 dollar pocket cameras have a "disp" button that when you press it toggles between what is displaying, and every single one I've ever picked up has one where you're seeing only the image and no heads up display junk.

Can't we use Occam's Razor to assume things that 99.999999% of all past digital cameras have included? It is without a doubt going to be possible to see the display both on the back of the camera and in the EVF with nothing showing but the live feed. It is without a doubt going to be possible to turn off all audio cues. It's just not going to happen that designers spend the time to make manual knobs and a retro design, but leave out aspects that are just design 101 basics like this.

Last edited by videogamemaker : 01-15-2011 at 05:22.
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Old 01-15-2011   #23
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Originally Posted by videogamemaker View Post
Even 50 dollar pocket cameras have a "disp" button that when you press it toggles between what is displaying, and every single one I've ever picked up has one where you're seeing only the image and no heads up display junk.

Can't we use Occam's Razor to assume things that 99.999999% of all past digital cameras have included? It is without a doubt going to be possible to see the display both on the back of the camera and in the EVF with nothing showing but the live feed. It is without a doubt going to be possible to turn off all audio cues. It's just not going to happen that designers spend the time to make manual knobs and a retro design, but leave out aspects that are just design 101 basics like this.
I don't disagree at all.

I spent my career in coaching a team of geeks in photogrammetric software development [replicating complex optical/mechanical instruments with software]. The first task is to identify what the instrument is doing and what other Jones have been doing...even in useless features...then design a better system.

I dare say every camera manufacturer has a log of what has been going on.

To enable/disable a beep, a [shutter] sound or a display is really just flipping electronic toggle switches...but people complained that there are too much/little beeps.

Cell phone makers had it right, down load your own favorite ring tones!
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Old 01-15-2011   #24
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@fujiguys: There has been lots of request to hear the shutter in action without any sound effects for #fuji x100. Will try for Monday.
11-01-15 1:42 PM

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Old 01-15-2011   #25
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Yeah just got this reply to my request as well: @videogamemaker Ok. Monday if time persist.

There really isn't any way to say this without being insulting, but who in their right mind would have made it like that, with the audio cues turned on? I mean, my mom might do it like that, but she isn't a major camera manufacturer affiliate, and she doesn't know how to work video editing software.

How can they be official reps, be given a prototype camera, AND know how to edit video/add logos/music etc, but not think to turn off the most obnoxious sounds that every serious photographer is going to turn off, in a highly anticipated video that is meant to show off the shutter and aperture working? I honestly cannot fathom what was going through their minds.
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Old 01-15-2011   #26
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And I was right, there is an artificial shutter sound being played (from fujiguys):

Shutter sound has actually sound plus sound effects from camera's speaker. More videos to come.
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Old 01-15-2011   #27
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Huh. Well, happy to be corrected in that case! It's even quieter than I thought, which can only be a good thing...
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Old 01-15-2011   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTrop View Post
I actually think I would much prefer to set aperture with a command wheel on the back of the camera, like a DSLR, instead of the lens barrel.
What? No, I much prefer real physical controls where they are supposed to be. I can't wait for this camera, it's going to get me hooting again. It'll be like using my Petri, but without the hassles of film. I'm hooked.
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Old 01-15-2011   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videogamemaker View Post
And I was right, there is an artificial shutter sound being played (from fujiguys):

Shutter sound has actually sound plus sound effects from camera's speaker. More videos to come.
Yuck.. I hate imitation sounds.

Looking forwards to seeing videos with them off.
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Old 01-18-2011   #30
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Just got a youtube reply to my request, saying the video (without sound) is incoming.
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Old 01-21-2011   #31
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Does anyone want to see a Fuji Guy mashing aggressively on the shutter release of the new ex-hundred? Because this is the internet, where all things are possible:

Fuji Guys - FinePix X100 Shutter & Aperture Demo #2
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Old 01-21-2011   #32
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Oh, that shows some heavy lag. Or am I mistaken? If the lag is as bad as it seems, I'll be saving the cash. I need the shutter to trigger the moment I press the shutter. Hmm.
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Old 01-21-2011   #33
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Hm - that sounds encouraging. Judging from the volume of the sound generated by just stabbing the shutter (which in reality cannot be that loud), the sound of closing the diaphragm and opening the shutter certainly is pretty silent.

Reminds me a little of my Hexar AF in silent mode, except that there's no film advance whine.
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Old 01-21-2011   #34
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Originally Posted by _larky View Post
Oh, that shows some heavy lag. Or am I mistaken? If the lag is as bad as it seems, I'll be saving the cash. I need the shutter to trigger the moment I press the shutter. Hmm.
I just don't see the lag...
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Old 01-21-2011   #35
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Oh, that shows some heavy lag. Or am I mistaken?
I think you are. This camera uses contrast-detect autofocus, so it will inherently focus before closing its diaphragm. Look again and see how quickly the diaphragm is actuated. That's a mighty short lag.

BTW - did you see the little notice in the viseo at 0:11? I wonder in which way they will be changing the design of the on/off switch and shutter release.
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Old 01-21-2011   #36
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I just don't see the lag...
I do. It seems like the camera has to wait for the aperture to close, then the shutter. Does this mean shutter is faster when you shoot wide open at f/2 and the aperture doesn't have to move? and slowest at f/22? I will be shooting at f/2 most of the time, but I'm wondering if there is a mode where it keeps the aperture closed to what it's supposed to be at all times.

But it sure is quiet!
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Old 01-21-2011   #37
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The lag is very evident from what I can see, and I agree with videogamemaker's comments above. Maybe we have different ideas of what lag is, that's happened before on this forum

But ye, it's very quiet and still looks the part. I'll be shooting manual focus anyway, so if it is the AF causing a lag, MF may resolve that.
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Old 01-22-2011   #38
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The lag is very evident from what I can see, and I agree with videogamemaker's comments above. Maybe we have different ideas of what lag is, that's happened before on this forum

But ye, it's very quiet and still looks the part. I'll be shooting manual focus anyway, so if it is the AF causing a lag, MF may resolve that.
Unless it's auto focusing *while* closing the aperture, I don't think it was autofocusing at all in that video.

It looks like you have two stages (in this vid):
1. half press button, and aperture closes (looks like maybe .4-6 seconds)
2. fully depress button, shutter closes, this looks like the advertised .01 seconds shutter lag.

I was thinking about this last night, because at first it really bothered me, but then I remembered most people do some kind of first stage half press (or button if you've moved your AF to a back button), recompose and click. For those who go from nothing to wanting the photo, like most from the hip street shooters, it might be a problem, but for the way I photograph I can imagine it not being too much of a problem.

Then again I might get it in my hands and dislike it. But unlike a dslr, where engaging the aperture with the DOF preview button, since this has an optical viewfinder, there is no reason not to engage the half press/aperture closing as you're setting up the framing and then be ready for the final click, which looks fast indeed.
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Old 01-22-2011   #39
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I think you are. This camera uses contrast-detect autofocus, so it will inherently focus before closing its diaphragm. Look again and see how quickly the diaphragm is actuated. That's a mighty short lag.

BTW - did you see the little notice in the viseo at 0:11? I wonder in which way they will be changing the design of the on/off switch and shutter release.
I don't think we are seeing AF consuming any time at all in these videos. It's either so fast it's near instantaneous (a good thing) or turned off. The delays are from aperture actuation, then shutter, from the half press to the full press.

I did see the notice, and I'm hoping they make it harder to accidentally turn off. I have noticed that the lower end Canon cameras have the on/off around the shutter, and yes it's closer to your finger to turn on in a hurry, but that also makes it easier to accidentally turn off. I prefer having it on the back bottom area on my 5D, where I turn it on then leave it on while I'm out, and let the sleep mode power-manage. With a lens that doesn't need to extend, and a quick .7 second wake up time, I plan to leave my x100 on while I'm out, and I'd personally like to see the on/off moved somewhere else, but I know that's personal preference. Here's hoping whatever they change the shutter button keeps a thread (I'm sure it will).
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Old 01-22-2011   #40
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Shutter lag or not, all we can deduce from the video at the moment is the shutter has a two stage action [common in AE shutters]:
  • Stage 1 - stop down diaphragm, maybe also last autonomic acquisition of AE and AF data...or via AEL/AFL command.
  • Stage 2 - shutter closes, then fires [and close after shutter duration], then open again.
According to Fuji, shutter lag is in the order of 0.01s, that is Action 1 and part of Action 2 [shutter closes] has to be completed in ~10ms. The video looks about right.

Action 2 duration is largely dependent on what shutter speed was set. Even a 1/30s [33ms] shutter speed will make the whole action look slow.

When I get around to it, I can take the whole video duration and isolate Stage 1 and Stage 2 duration......

I am satisfied that the X100 seems fast enough...and sounds OK as well.
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