Old 05-26-2018   #41
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Isn't that virtually the MA?

The cameras are not expensive because of their features. They are expensive because of a limited market and Leica's consequential move to position them as a Veblen good.

However, it is depressing that Leica will frequently produce small runs of "celebrity" cameras, yet in 16 years of production they have not invested the (relatively minor) engineering needed to update the M7 design to use currently available parts.

Leica's priority is clearly to produce cameras for collectors, not cameras for photographers.


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I don't think removing the frame selector and engraving is going is going to shave 2K off an M-A. And it would be out of character for Leica to go down market. There is also pretty good supply of M4s on the market. Add a CLA and you are in business for even less.
i'm not saying it's probable, but it's certainly possible for Leica to build a "budget" film rangefinder and sell it at that price. if they can produce and sell their latest digital CL at $2800, I'm thinking they could do it with a film body.
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Old 05-26-2018   #42
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i'm not saying it's probable, but it's certainly possible for Leica to build a "budget" film rangefinder and sell it at that price. if they can produce and sell their latest digital CL at $2800, I'm thinking they could do it with a film body.
Well, the CL at $2800 is the most expensive APSC camera on the market by $800+ or so... so that is Leica priced for APSC.
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Old 05-26-2018   #43
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but it's certainly possible for Leica to build a "budget" film rangefinder
As possible as Bentley building a $ 20,000 car.
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Old 05-26-2018   #44
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i'm not saying it's probable, but it's certainly possible for Leica to build a "budget" film rangefinder and sell it at that price. if they can produce and sell their latest digital CL at $2800, I'm thinking they could do it with a film body.
The question is not whether they could build a film body for a lower price but whether they would want to sell one for a lower price. Veblen goods theory suggests that if they lowered the price people would be less inclined to buy it. I suspect they sell more Summicrons than Summarits, and that's not because they are a half stop faster.
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Old 05-26-2018   #45
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The question is not whether they could build a film for a lower price but whether they want to sell one for a lower price. Veblen goods theory suggests that if they lowered the price people would be less inclined to buy it. I suspect they sell more Summicrons than Summarits.
You sir, have an excellent point. It's unfortunate that Leica has become such a luxury brand.
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Old 05-26-2018   #46
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you sir, have an excellent point. it's unfortunate that leica has become such a luxury brand.
They camera you are looking for is a M4 with a CLA.
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Old 05-26-2018   #47
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That Leica stopped making the M7 (had one but gave up on heavy 135 cameras after) bothers me less than no one making a modern, solid and good MF rangefinder with wide RF base length and good f/2.8-ish lens.
If film makes sense in relatively heavy and expensive cameras these days, then in 120 format...but maybe that is just me.
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Old 05-26-2018   #48
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They camera you are looking for is a M4 with a CLA.
I own an M4 (recently CLA'd)
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Old 05-26-2018   #49
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i'd like to see Leica replace the M7 with a more economical model. say, $2250 new, and quite a bit more utilitarian than the MP and M-A. no fancy engravings, no frame preview, no leicavit gearing, no meter/electronics. just a no frills, get it done film camera.
Nix on removing the frame selector. I still use mine. No way!

Maybe the M7 is just being replaced by an updated model that still has electronic shutter control.
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Old 05-26-2018   #50
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There is also pretty good supply of M4s on the market. Add a CLA and you are in business for even less.
The problem is that neither an M4 nor a cost reduced MA/MP is really a replacement for an M7 - the last rangefinder to support both full manual use and an accurate and effective aperture priority mode.
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Old 05-26-2018   #51
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The question is not whether they could build a film body for a lower price but whether they would want to sell one for a lower price. Veblen goods theory suggests that if they lowered the price people would be less inclined to buy it. I suspect they sell more Summicrons than Summarits, and that's not because they are a half stop faster.
Summicrons are better built than the modern M mount Summarits. It was really noticeable with the one I had.
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Old 05-26-2018   #52
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The problem is that neither an M4 nor a cost reduced MA/MP is really a replacement for an M7 - the last rangefinder to support both full manual use and an accurate and effective aperture priority mode.
The poster suggesting a lower cost body specified no meter or electronics. It follows that it would not have an auto exposure mode and therefore not be an M7 replacement. Apparently the M7 was not sufficiently popular to remain in the lineup, so Leica pulled the plug.
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Old 05-26-2018   #53
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Have you looked at the current prices on M7's?

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The clue is the moment you roll your brand new $5K M7 off the show room floor, it's worth maybe $200 more than a Leica M6TTL on the used market.
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Old 05-26-2018   #54
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Have you looked at the current prices on M7's?
Sure, they are selling in the $1700 range.
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Old 05-27-2018   #55
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The disappearance of the M7 doesn't bother me much but the disappearance of amother film camera does !
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Old 05-27-2018   #56
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Summicrons are better built than the modern M mount Summarits. It was really noticeable with the one I had.
So, why not produce a "Summarit" level M-Mount body? Roughly half the price, just like the lenses.
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Old 05-27-2018   #57
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So, why not produce a "Summarit" level M-Mount body? Roughly half the price, just like the lenses.
You mean like an M6?

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Old 05-27-2018   #58
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You mean like an M6?

people buying used M6 cameras does nothing to promote the production of new film cameras. if leica were to build a "summarit" level body, it could bring in a younger target audience that would eventually spend more money on the high-end "summilux" level stuff.
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Old 05-27-2018   #59
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I was saying 'like' an M6. So the new cheap Leica M would be a new version of the M6 which with all it's cost cutting, flaring finders, bubbling zinc covers etc.
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Old 05-27-2018   #60
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You should check again.

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Sure, they are selling in the $1700 range.
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Old 05-27-2018   #61
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You should check again.
Two on fredmiranda.com just sold for that. There were a couple of LA's craigslist that sold in that range.
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Old 05-27-2018   #62
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Well, would be pretty easy, wouldn't it?


A M7 with Aluminium Body (=lighter) and

a larger finder to better support 28mm lines and glass wearers.



...Because that was just about all to complain about the M7. Otherwise it was PERFECT <3 : D
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Old 05-27-2018   #63
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I think the issue is that there are so many film Ms out there, that most people do not care about buying a new one. If anything there is way more 'cred' getting an old one and paying for a service if needed.
In use my M3 in many ways is superior to my M-A or M4-2. Especially if you are using a 50mm lens. And there are millions of them out there. Leica cursed themselves by making them so well!
But they learnt their lesson which is why their digital Ms are disposable.
Think about it, we would have no hesitation in picking up an M from the 1960s - almost 60 years ago. But a 10 year old digital Leica? Forget that nonsense.
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Old 05-27-2018   #64
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Well said Huss, & folks paid over $5k for those '10 year old digital' ...now an M10 is $7.2k without a lens. As photographers we are able to rationalize our choices to ourselves but to the un-obsessed, even those with lots & lots of disposable cash, $10k for a camera & lens is an exorbitant amount of money.
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Old 05-27-2018   #65
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But a 10 year old digital Leica?
am still happily using 12yo Leica M8, and keeping eye on 9yo M9 prices.
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Old 05-27-2018   #66
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I was saying 'like' an M6. So the new cheap Leica M would be a new version of the M6 which with all it's cost cutting, flaring finders, bubbling zinc covers etc.
ah i gotcha. funny how the most popular film M today is the worst in terms of build quality.
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Old 05-27-2018   #67
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Tell you what, an m7 update with an FM3A type hybrid shutter would be the dream. Well, if you're into that sort of thing, my dream is It's-it in baltimore.
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Old 05-27-2018   #68
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Tell you what, an m7 update with an FM3A type hybrid shutter would be the dream.
It's called a Konica Hexar RF and is a fantastic camera. I always loved mine and should have never sold it.

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Old 05-27-2018   #69
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It's called a Konica Hexar RF and is a fantastic camera. I always loved mine and should have never sold it.
Phil the Konica is a paperweight without batteries, whereas the FM3a works at all shutter speeds mechanically without batteries. The finder is also smaller than an M, not larger. A ZI with a hybrid finder would be nice, but the manufacturer would never recoup the R&D costs.

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Old 05-27-2018   #70
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I think the issue is that there are so many film Ms out there, that most people do not care about buying a new one. If anything there is way more 'cred' getting an old one and paying for a service if needed.
In use my M3 in many ways is superior to my M-A or M4-2. Especially if you are using a 50mm lens. And there are millions of them out there. Leica cursed themselves by making them so well!
But they learnt their lesson which is why their digital Ms are disposable.
Think about it, we would have no hesitation in picking up an M from the 1960s - almost 60 years ago. But a 10 year old digital Leica? Forget that nonsense.
This is true - film Leicas are so abundant, reliable, and repairable that continuing to make a small number of new ones to sell for $4800 probably isn't a winning proposition. I wish they could keep building them, but I can always use my M3 and MP while I look for a nice used one.

So far, I have never lost money on a film Leica, but gave thousands to depreciation of digital Leicas; I doubt I'll ever buy another new one.
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Old 05-27-2018   #71
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It's called a Konica Hexar RF and is a fantastic camera. I always loved mine and should have never sold it.

Phil Forrest
I'll take your Konica Hexar and raise you one Rollei QZ35W. Porsche design, Rollei HFT lens, no puny 1/4000 sec shutter speed. This one goes to 1/8000!
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Old 05-27-2018   #72
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ah i gotcha. funny how the most popular film M today is the worst in terms of build quality.
Exactly, because it was the cheapest one.
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Old 05-27-2018   #73
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[ah i gotcha. funny how the most popular film M today is the worst in terms of build quality.]

Funny because my M6 Wetzlar has been spot on reliable since the day I bought it sometime in the early 90's. It also sports the smoothest advance of
any the M bodies (SS M3 and a M4-P) I use.

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Old 05-27-2018   #74
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Phil the Konica is a paperweight without batteries, whereas the FM3a works at all shutter speeds mechanically without batteries. The finder is also smaller than an M, not larger. A ZI with a hybrid finder would be nice, but the manufacturer would never recoup the R&D costs.

Marty
Absolutely true but people don't buy an M7 or an FM3a to use it without batteries. The same goes for any digital camera which are the mainstream. Yes, batteries die and fail but thats why we carry spares. During the 18 years of my professional photography work, I have had batteries fail exactly once on me, that was due to cold. It was also done on purpose when I was at DINFOS for Navy Photo School. So the no batteries make the camera a brick argument is a red herring however true it may be.

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Old 05-27-2018   #75
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I guess people who use film in 2018 want the all manual camera. (Same for those who want a manual transmission car)

AE (with ae lock or exposure compensation) is so underrated...
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Old 05-27-2018   #76
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I guess people who use film in 2018 want the all manual camera. (Same for those who want a manual transmission car)



AE (with ae lock or exposure compensation) is so underrated...

... or, judging by recent prices of high end P&S film camera, full auto. Semi-auto is so underrated...
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Old 05-27-2018   #77
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Absolutely true but people don't buy an M7 or an FM3a to use it without batteries. The same goes for any digital camera which are the mainstream. Yes, batteries die and fail but thats why we carry spares. During the 18 years of my professional photography work, I have had batteries fail exactly once on me, that was due to cold. It was also done on purpose when I was at DINFOS for Navy Photo School. So the no batteries make the camera a brick argument is a red herring however true it may be.
I just meant it as a response to:

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Originally Posted by Hogarth Ferguson View Post
Tell you what, an m7 update with an FM3A type hybrid shutter would be the dream. Well, if you're into that sort of thing, my dream is It's-it in baltimore.
I also never thought the Konica Hexar RF range/viewfinder was that good, certainly not as good as an M. The only small format camera I ever thought was an improvement on the Leica one was the Zeiss ZI, but the one I used kept getting out of alignment.

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Old 05-28-2018   #78
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I'm happy with the M10 but sometimes I desire something smaller and lighter: in this case I still use my 9 years old Leica X1...

And as for the M7 I'll shoot some film with it in the next couple of week just to keep the camera alive ! I like the M7 as it is...

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Old 05-28-2018   #79
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I'm happy with the M10 but sometimes I desire something smaller and lighter: in this case I still use my 9 years old Leica X1...

And as for the M7 I'll shoot some film with it in the next couple of week just to keep the camera alive ! I like the M7 as it is...

robert
It puts a smile on my face every time I think of Robert enjoying his M10, M7, and X1, not to mention his other loved cameras. He knows the joy of photography, and each one of his cameras he uses to express his inner being. He also does the same with his drawing, painting and love of Art.

Having owned and loved many Leica film cameras, I missed out on the M7 but since I personally prefer Aperture Priority and AE lock, I am sure I would have enjoyed it. But the M7 will be around for a very long time and we all might get the opportunity to enjoy one, if not the beautiful M10.

Lately, I have been working with the X1 images from last year. Yes, I am that far behind. I am still amazed at those gorgeous files and how malleable they are. That is only one reason I carry and use the X1 every day. I only wish I had a second one (black) to keep in my other Billingham bag. I hate having to swap gear from bag to bag, I much prefer "grab and go" as just leaving the house is a minimum two-hour affair every time. The small X1 has been my companion for a long time. I use it half the time in Aperture Priority mode.

If I had an M7, I am sure I would buy it a separate Billingham bag, that is how much I respect that camera... and for... has it really been 15 years?!!!!!
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Old 05-28-2018   #80
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So what?

Consumables get discontinued, humans and animals die all the time. Nothing new about that.

Films are being discontinued to be produced. Heck, Kodak itself...well you all know about that.

I loved the Lockheed DC-3. And they discontinued making it. As they did the Tri-Star. I didn't own any, though. M7s; I own 2 of them.

I am sure there shall be plenty available in the used market...M7s, at least.
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