Negative developing screw-up. Please help diagnose.
Old 06-06-2018   #1
froyd
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Negative developing screw-up. Please help diagnose.

Developed a 36 frame roll of Tri-X in HC100 1:63, VERY gentle agitation (1 slow inversion) every minute.

Used a Patterson-style plastic reel that never gave me problems before. Use a two-reel tank with only one reel but with a reel "clip" hat holds the one reel to the bottom of the tank and used slightly more than the recommended amount of liquids for one roll.

Stop baths was water, followed by rapid fixer and then the Ilford rinse method.

All of the frames have lighter bands at the top, in correspondence of the sprocket holes. I cannot detect similar banding at the bottom of the frame. I have no way of knowing whether the bottom of the frames was at the bottom of the developing tank or not.

What's the most likely cause for the lighter areas under the sprocket holes (area marked with red dots, below)?

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Old 06-06-2018   #2
lynnb
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I'm thinking your agitation method might be the culprit. I regularly got similar markings until I looked up film processing data sheets (I think Kodak's) which recommended 5-7 rapid inversions in the space of about 5 seconds, either every 30secs or every 60. I've never had the problem since.
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Old 06-06-2018   #3
Rob-F
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I'm going to guess that it was caused by the tank not being completely filled. I'm imagining developer near the surface of the liquid, sloshing through the sprocket holes during inversion to cause uneven development. I've always filled the tank completely, even for just one roll. If I'm wanting to save developer, I use a one-reel tank.
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Old 06-06-2018   #4
charjohncarter
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I'm with Rob-F, I agitate with HC-110h, only 3 inversions every 5 minutes and I am gentle; 3 inversion in 10 seconds. I never had a problem with 'socket surge.' If you read Ansel Adams writings you will find a very similar (to mine) agitation for his 'semi-compensating development' with HC-110 (not h but more dilute: 4ml per 500ml).
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Old 06-06-2018   #5
froyd
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An old thread on (former) APUG blames the issue on too BN much agitation.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...t-holes.28970/

He is a quote from that thread:

"In the book 'The Darkroom Handbook' on page74, under Black and white negative errors, it reads;

Surge marks,
If your negatives have patches of uneven density adjacent to the sprocket holes, you have agitated the film tank too much. The developer solution has surged through the sprocket holes and created extra development in nearby areas.

I must mention that also, on the same page, the negatives developed in exhausted developer look very similar, only they will have a veil of fog and yellow-ish gelatin stain (the authors words)"


Maybe I'm not remembering a period of stronger agitation at the start of the development, before the one minute inversions. I would not be surprised if I did that on this roll, since I commonly did it when I was using D76.
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Old 06-06-2018   #6
Freakscene
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It is from the agitation. You can change the pattern from what manufacturers suggest, but maintaining random flow over the film is important. If agitation is gentle or rough isn't relevant, the developer needs to move similarly across all parts of the film. If the way you agitate consistently forms flow patterns in each agitation cycle that create pronounced flow through the sprocket holes you get surge marks. It is why I prefer to control contrast and density with time, not agitation.

The tank should not be completely filled; you need a large air bubble to create the agitation. If the edge of the film was not submerged the effect would be much more pronounced.

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Old 06-07-2018   #7
Dogman
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Agree with others--agitation problem caused by using a single reel in a two reel tank and only using enough solution to cover the single reel. Always use the number of reels and the amount of solution for the size of the tank.
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Old 06-07-2018   #8
Ted Striker
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Did you see any foam in your developer once you opened the tank to pour it out? If you had foam, and did not dislodge it with hits to the bottom of the tank, that might cause uneven development.
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Old 06-07-2018   #9
LCSmith
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Possibly not enough agitation during the fix. Fixing benefits from rigorous agitation. I had a similar problem once when I fixed using the agitation twirler-stick with my Paterson instead of inverting.
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Old 06-07-2018   #10
Steve M.
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I think that not having the other empty reel on top caused the developer to rush over the film w/ more force than it would have if the other reel had been on top.

It helps to use a sort of swirley/twisty motion in your arms when you do your inversions too, and bring the tank down firmly now and then on a block of wood to shake bubbles off. Like LCSmith, that little rod that's used to twirl the reel caused me no end of troubles. Finally threw it away and used the usual tank inversions. That ended my sprocket hole surge problems.
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Old 06-07-2018   #11
retinax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
I think that not having the other empty reel on top caused the developer to rush over the film w/ more force than it would have if the other reel had been on top.

It helps to use a sort of swirley/twisty motion in your arms when you do your inversions too, and bring the tank down firmly now and then on a block of wood to shake bubbles off. Like LCSmith, that little rod that's used to twirl the reel caused me no end of troubles. Finally threw it away and used the usual tank inversions. That ended my sprocket hole surge problems.

Just for the record, don't throw away the Paterson twirl rod! It's very effective against bubbles, another common problem. Great if you don't have any without it, but I always use it for an initial agitation (later agitation by inverting) as per the instructions that come with Paterson tanks. If you try it during the final wash and peek in, you can see how much more effective it is against bubbles than slamming the tank on a surface/your hand.
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Old 06-07-2018   #12
BLKRCAT
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x whatever on surge marks.

Of all the things to read on how to learn, proper agitation is the hardest.

I've seen people teaching development use the cocktail shaker method, far too vigorous agitation and maybe not initially, but if you push your negative in post you'll see surge marks come through.
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Old 06-07-2018   #13
airfrogusmc
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Sounds like to aggressive agitation to me. Different films require different agitation. T-Max films, because of the heavy film base need more aggressive agitation to avoid uneven skies, etc. That type of agitation appropriate for T-Max on say Tri-X will lead to developer rushing through the sprocket holes thus causing over development in those areas causing lighter areas (on the print) around the sprocket holes.
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