Kodak TMax P3200 and TMax Dev
Old 06-12-2018   #1
andrewnelles
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Kodak TMax P3200 and TMax Dev

I recently shot and processed some Kodak TMax P3200 in TMax Developer. The film was rated at 3200 ISO and developed for 12min at 68F per a Kodak tech sheet I found. The results came out very well.


However, I noticed most charts online only list times for 9.5min at 75F. Is there any advantage to running the shorter/hotter method?


Thanks.
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Old 06-12-2018   #2
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Here is the Kodak tech sheet; there is lots and lots of pertinent information including comprehensive times for temps up to 85F. When I used a lot of this great film in 1990's for low light sports I settled on Tmax Developer (not the RS!) at 1:4 usually around 75F but for deadline I would boost the developer temp to 85. According to that most recent tech sheet using an Exposure Index (EI) of 12,500 (totally reasonable for newsprint sports) Tmax Developer at 85F is a decent 8 1/2 minutes. I've found that the modern films especially Tmax can handle a higher processing temperature with less or no swell of the emulsion than the older films....

YMMV and Test Test Test here you go.

http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites...ucts/F4001.pdf
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Old 06-12-2018   #3
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In the time of film use, exposure and development, then Optical printing.
Photographers esp. professionals and advanced amateurs did severe testing!
T-Max developer in spite of its label is not made specifically for T-Max films.
I develop at the temps of my chemicals, room temperature including my needed water for developer and other chemicals.
I never use fresh water!
A tip learned from my Lady concerning tropical fish tank replenishment.
Living in Toronto we enjoy heat in winter and cold air in summer..
I never process at temps above 80F!
Newspaper photographers had to GET an image and fast!
It is not the road with a highway code!
Been there, done that,always left waiting for my money!
Test at different times and there are other developers with better results..

Last edited by leicapixie : 06-12-2018 at 04:39. Reason: typing spell errors
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Old 06-12-2018   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
T-Max developer in spite of its label is not made specifically for T-Max films.
YES. I had excellent results with Tri-X in T-Max developer.
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Old 06-12-2018   #5
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I have an order of P3200 on the way, and hope that my faithful D76 can be adapted at some exposure iso/dilution/time/temp to get an image I want. There have been a few threads with pictures from P3200 but not many with data, yet.

Can this thread be it?

I want to make some night street "Noir" pictures, and some pictures from a high bridge over a large river, with ships, boats, and distant lights, long exposures on a tripod, probably.
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Old 06-12-2018   #6
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Just to clarify my question. I guess I'm wondering, specifically with this film/dev combo, if anyone knows if there is any distinct advantage (besides time) to developing at 75deg. Since that temp seems to be universally recommended for some reason. Mas Dev Chart only has 75deg times for 3200 for example, even though the Kodak sheet lists a 68deg option.

Thanks again.
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Old 06-12-2018   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewnelles View Post
Just to clarify my question. I guess I'm wondering, specifically with this film/dev combo, if anyone knows if there is any distinct advantage (besides time) to developing at 75deg. Since that temp seems to be universally recommended for some reason. Mas Dev Chart only has 75deg times for 3200 for example, even though the Kodak sheet lists a 68deg option.

Thanks again.



Ignore the Massive Developing Chart. The times there were submitted by people who often do not know what they're doing and the people who run the MDC do not test or verify the submitted times in any way.

When you're trying a new film and developer combo, ALWAYS use the manufacturer's times to begin with. They're usually correct or very close. That's especially true with both Kodak and Ilford in my experience.

If you are using a combination of film and developer where there are no times supplied by the maker of the film or chemicals, then search for photographers who have actually used it and have posted their times. They may be wrong, but are more likely to be ok than random times posted anonymously on the Massive Developing Chart.

You can look at my own tested times for several films in Tmax Developer, Rodinal, D-76, and PMK:


http://crawfordphotoschool.com/film/developing.php


Note that my times for Tmax 3200 are for the previous version of the film. I have not tried the newly re-issued film yet. Follow Kodak's recommendations.

Regarding Tmax Developer and temperatures. You can develop at 68 or 75 degrees, as long as you use the correct times for the temp you've chosen. When Kodak first introduced Tmax Developer 25 yrs ago, they were trying to push people to use 75 because it gave shorter times with Tmax 3200 (which usually requires much longer times than normal films).
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Old 06-14-2018   #8
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Yep great information from Mr Crawford. The advancements of film technology meant that the films had less tendency for emulsion swelling which meant there was little penalty for processing quicker at a higher temp.
I will report the results of my first roll of the new re-issued Tmax P3200.
Specifically with this film/developer combination when I used the previous version extensively and processed in just about everything (a curious monkey) I did find that I had maximum film speed available with Tmax developer. At 1600 HC-110, D-76 1;0 and 1;1 and Tmax developer were essentially equal in speed and tonal range but at 6400 I vastly preferred the Tmax developer for the speed and shadow detail still available. In all I'd only really use the Tmax developer for pushing or P3200; it was more expensive and as always the paper's darkroom budget was only so much...
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Old 06-14-2018   #9
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Kodak gives times for 20C (68F) to 29C (85F).
http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites...ucts/F4001.pdf
In T-Max or T-Max RS developers, changing the temperature does very little apart from decrease the time.

TMZ was formulated for rapid development. Kodak reps told me that 24C was the optimum developing temperature. I couldn’t see much difference, but I have no reason to doubt that.

Marty
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Old 06-14-2018   #10
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Perfect, if time is the only variable, I'll stick with 68deg. No need to warm all the chem.
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Old 06-14-2018   #11
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I have no idea where to start with exposing this film for the night picture that I want to make. I have attached a picture, not mine, but similar to what I see as I drive over the bridge at night, with the river below, and the industries lit up with lights. The lens will be set at infinity, the aperature set full open, f2.
Do I open for 1 second, or 60 seconds? Don't have a clue, and with the time I will have up on the bridge, I doubt that I can do many brackets, so I'm looking for some guidance.
I suppose I will shoot the film at 3200, and develop in D76


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Old 06-14-2018   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidnewtonguitars View Post
I have no idea where to start with exposing this film for the night picture that I want to make. I have attached a picture, not mine, but similar to what I see as I drive over the bridge at night, with the river below, and the industries lit up with lights. The lens will be set at infinity, the aperature set full open, f2.
Do I open for 1 second, or 60 seconds? Don't have a clue, and with the time I will have up on the bridge, I doubt that I can do many brackets, so I'm looking for some guidance.
I suppose I will shoot the film at 3200, and develop in D76

I've done some work in similar lighting situations. Unfortunately, there is no 'standard exposure' settings I can give you. It depends on the actual brightness of the light, and how much shadow detail and highlight detail you need and what you're willing to sacrifice.

Tmax 3200 is designed to be push-processed. Its real speed is about 1000. When films are pushed, they lose shadow detail, while the push-developing brings midtones back to where they should be and highlights usually go a little higher on the scale then they should be.

Tmax 3200 and Ilford's similar Delta 3200 are made to that they build more shadow density when push developed compared to normal films, and because they're designed to be slightly low in contrast when developed at their 'true' ISO speeds, the increased contrast from pushing doesn't look as bad as it does with normal films.

There is a catch, however. These films do not work well with most developers, and D-76 is one of the worst I have tried. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to use one of the developers that were designed for these films. Kodak Tmax Developer was specifically designed for push-developing Tmax 3200, though it also works great as a general purpose developer for other films. Ilford DDX is similar in how it works but I don't know what developing times to use for the Kodak film with it.

I know that Tmax Developer is far and away the best developer for Tmax 3200 and is my choice for Delta 3200 too. Buy a bottle of it and use it for this project.

Here are some of my shots:









The first two were shot on Ilford Delta 3200 after Kodak discontinued the original Tmax 3200, and the last two are older photos shot on the original Tmax 3200. The two films are similar enough that pictures shot on either make good examples.

Setting exposure was tricky on these. There was little or no shadow detail because things in the scenes were either brightly lit, or not lit at all. Normally we set exposure with negative films to ensure shadow detail is preserved. That won't work here.

I used the spotmeter built in to my camera, an Olympus OM-4T, for determining exposure on these. The brightly lit areas and midtones are going to be the most important things, the opposite of normal practice with BW negative film.

What I did was spotmeter the bright lights and set exposure 3 stops over the meter reading (that is, overexpose 3 stops). Then I checked the midtones, if there were any, to make sure they didn't fall too low. Midtones should meter around the same as the exposure you calculated by giving 3 stops over on the bright lights. If its showing the midtones will be underexposed more than a half stop or so, give another stop extra exposure. This film can tolerate some overexposure in the highlights.

Forget about shadows, in such harsh light, preserving much shadow detail is not gonna happen.

I hope that wasn't too confusing or complex. These are not easy situations to determine exposure for, but my method works and I did these shots with no need to bracket. Don't forget to use Tmax Developer. If you use D-76 you will be disappointed. Xtol is said to work great for Tmax 3200 too, if you have that and don't want to buy Tmax Developer, but I cannot personally promise that, as I have not tried it.
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Old 06-15-2018   #13
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Thanks Chris, I have no problem using the Tmax developer, and I will on your recommendation.
Maybe my Seconic will be able to give me some idea of the exposure. If I could just get some starting exposure time hints...
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Old 06-15-2018   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidnewtonguitars View Post
Thanks Chris, I have no problem using the Tmax developer, and I will on your recommendation.
Maybe my Seconic will be able to give me some idea of the exposure. If I could just get some starting exposure time hints...
Its hard to give a starting point because in my experience the exposures I used varied widely. I know I shot all of them handheld, so none were done with exposures longer then 1/15 of a second (the limit of what I could handhold back then, before the stroke made me shaky). Apertures were probably f5.6 or f8. The lights are brighter than you'd guess when the film is shot at 3200. I know you don't want to bracket, but I'd try to anyway, since you don't have a spotmeter. I'm assuming your Sekonic is an incident meter. Those don't work well for this sort of subject and lighting situation.
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Old 06-15-2018   #15
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It isn't that I don't want to bracket, it is just the time that I will have on top of the bridge at night will be limited. As long as the traffic is not coming at me I will try to bracket, maybe I will have time to shoot all 36 at varying exposures before I am run over.
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Old 06-16-2018   #16
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Pushed to 3200 in LegacyPro LMAX Developer, 12.5 min at 68deg.

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Old 07-31-2018   #17
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Did some experiments at 9.5min at 75F, I will say I think the contrast is noticeably lower, and the grain is noticeably finer than the 68deg time.

I'll stick with 75deg.
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Old 07-31-2018   #18
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I can see why you maybe want to go with a higher development temp - but the photo is still super cool. :>)
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Old 08-03-2018   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewnelles View Post
Did some experiments at 9.5min at 75F, I will say I think the contrast is noticeably lower, and the grain is noticeably finer than the 68deg time.
I'll stick with 75deg.
Did you check if fb+fog and DMax are the same? Id be interested to know. There should be a theoretical optimum temperature, Im interested to know if that translates practically.

Marty
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Old 10-06-2018   #20
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Older version TMAX P3200, exposed @3200, dev. in TMAX developer 1+4dil. 9.5mins @24C (75F) using Kodak datasheet recommendation


CL M-Rokkor 40mm f/2


CL M-Rokkor 40mm f/2
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Old 10-09-2018   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewnelles View Post
Just to clarify my question. I guess I'm wondering, specifically with this film/dev combo, if anyone knows if there is any distinct advantage (besides time) to developing at 75deg. Since that temp seems to be universally recommended for some reason. Mas Dev Chart only has 75deg times for 3200 for example, even though the Kodak sheet lists a 68deg option.

Thanks again.
When Kodak introduced T-Max developer, the recommended/boldfaced developing times were all at 75F, instead of the usual 68F, and some of them still are (though the last J-86 publication I have is at least 15 years old). It's down to the viscosity of the stock developer. But it works fine at other temperatures.
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Old 10-10-2018   #22
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Here are some of my results with TMax P3200 at 3200 in TMax developer at 24C / 75F



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Old 10-10-2018   #23
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Here are some of my results with TMax P3200 at 3200 in TMax developer at 24C / 75F






Looks great! I love the cat picture.
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Old 10-10-2018   #24
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KODAK PROFESSIONAL Film App by Kodak Alaris Inc.

FWIW to those who might be interested, Kodak Alaris has available the above ipad/iphone app with all the technical data sheets for all their films. They have updated their data sheet for TMax 3200 and have added a data sheet for the new Ektachrome and both are included in the app. Apparently the new data sheet for TMax 3200 is different from the old one, but I don’t have the old one in front of me for comparison. I tried to copy a link to the Apple app store above, if it doesn’t work, just go to the app store and search “Kodak Film”. I assume there is an android version as well.
Very handy having all the data sheets on your phone.
Alaris also has an app there which lists movies which are actually shot on film, like Dunkirk, which is kind of interesting.

EDIT: Posting a link from the Apple store doesn’t seem to have worked, so just go there and do the search for “Kodak film”..

EDIT: Maybe this works- https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/koda...568463694?mt=8
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Old 10-10-2018   #25
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Jake06. Yes, these are great! I especially like the one with the open window with clothes on the line, and a cat appears also I think.


Can you recall your shutter/fstop settings on the street scene? Thanks.


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Looks great! I love the cat picture.
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Old 03-12-2019   #26
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Chris, I am getting to work with some P3200 and I find your shot incredibly good. Not only aesthetically, but technically great judged by grain control and exposure. Wow!
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