Help with banding across HP5+ frame
Old 10-18-2018   #1
phoric
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Help with banding across HP5+ frame

Hello,

I'd like to solicit your comments to help diagnose a defect on this 6x6 frame shot on 120 Ilford HP5 Plus:




The issue is the band of higher density at the bottom of the image. This was shot with a (new to me) Yashica Mat 124G. The adjacent frames look okay. Developed for 9 minutes in DD-X in a Paterson universal tank.
  • Defect appears on the negative and extends into the margin/rebate. So it's not a scanning issue.
  • The defect is denser the left side and graduates to thinner on the right side, which is visible in the scan and in the negative.
  • This frame was 2/3's into the roll (frame #9). The last frame #13 also has a lesser but similar band at it's bottom (on the inside, adjacent to frame #12).
  • Neither were shot in direct sunlight and camera has it's leather case attached, so unlikely to be light leaking from around the back opening.
  • The frame would have been oriented 90 degrees sideways inside the dev tank, so the band would have been sitting vertically. Thus it's probably not a matter of low liquid level.
  • Did not occur on previous roll.
Any thoughts?
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Old 10-18-2018   #2
phoric
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I'm thinking it could be:

Possibly some sort of leakage carrying over from the frame next to it. Looking again at the adjacent negative frame on that side, it has a dense sky on one side that appears to be bleeding into the margins somewhat. I can't tell for sure but it might be bleeding slightly over into the frame in question. The other frame I mentioned also has an adjacent frame with some dense areas bleeding over into the margin. What could cause this? Could overexposing a sky cause defects on an adjacent frame? Or perhaps some development problem, use of a squeegee, or drying issue?

Other than that, perhaps a random leak of some kind, random static, or a portion of the frames were stuck together inside the developer roll...
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Old 10-18-2018   #3
Freakscene
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It’s a reflection off the transport roller. Almost all TLRs do it.

Marty
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Old 10-18-2018   #4
xayraa33
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Did you have enough developer and fixer to go over the top of the reel?
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Old 10-18-2018   #5
presspass
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How did you develop this roll? Was the agitation regular? As pointed out above, it could also be an inadequate amount of developer. Did you check the internals of rhe camera for bright spots or even a loose baffle? Lastly, have you done any more rolls and had the problem repeat?

Last edited by presspass : 10-18-2018 at 14:12. Reason: Additional information
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Light Band
Old 10-18-2018   #6
randy stewart
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Light Band

It's not a darkroom or development issue.
I suspect that it is a light strike from a very small light leak across the top of the camera back, probably along the back hinge. It's lack of appearance on other frames suggests that its a leak which requires some time to expose. Also, it would not be blocked by the case bottom alone. To test: load another roll; put black tape along the top seam of the back, and leave open to light for an hour or two. See what happens.
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Old 10-18-2018   #7
phoric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xayraa33 View Post
Did you have enough developer and fixer to go over the top of the reel?
Yes, definitely. I don't think this would be the issue, since the "band" would have been oriented vertically in the dev tank. A low level of developer would have caused a defect at 90 degrees from where it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by presspass View Post
How did you develop this roll?
Agitated/inverted the tank for 10 seconds every minute, then tapped the bottom to release bubbles. Same with the other stages.
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Old 10-18-2018   #8
xayraa33
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Was the pressure plate set for 120 film?
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Old 10-18-2018   #9
phoric
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Yeah, could be a leak or reflection I suppose. Since I had the case attached, the only potential place would be coming from the top hinge. Or as Marty mentioned, perhaps the chrome film roller that sits above the internal baffle.

But it's strange as it only happened when there was an nearby frame with an overexposed sky or area near the adjacent edge - so at the moment I think it's likely some sort of bleeding from overexposure.

I'll guess I'll have do some more experimenting with additional rolls. I plan on shooting daily with this camera during upcoming travels.
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Old 10-18-2018   #10
phoric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xayraa33 View Post
Was the pressure plate set for 120 film?

Yes, it was.
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Old 10-18-2018   #11
Steve M.
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I've been shooting TLR's for over twenty five years and never had a transport roller make a reflection on a neg. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it never happened to me. If it's not a development issue, sometimes the film can be loosely wound on the take up spool and this can let a little light onto the film when you open up the camera.

I would ck the camera carefully for light leaks on the back, shoot another roll of film, and make sure that the levels are OK in the developing tank. If I had to guess, like someone said above, it may have been some of the film touching on this part of the neg on the developing spool.
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Old 10-18-2018   #12
Moto-Uno
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^^ On a recent roll from my Pentacon 6 tl I experienced something similar when the picture involved a bright light source I thought was hidden by a tree.
It spilled over to the next frame . ( Yes it was the sun ) Peter
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Old 10-18-2018   #13
phoric
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I went and shot another two test rolls today and just finished developing them. I taped up the back of the camera with some gaffer tape to eliminate potential light leaks. Same time, same film, same light/conditions (setting sun), same metering (rated at 320, metering off the shadows or mids). And of course I developed using the same method. On the first roll I deliberately took a few shots that would have over-exposed areas near the top of the frame. You can see the result here:






So, it seems over-exposing can cause the bleeding/spillage into the adjacent frame. The Yashica tends to space each frame a little different, so some are far enough away where it doesn't harm them, while others get a nasty band of spillage (halation?) from the previous shot.

On the second roll of film I avoided shooting towards bright light sources (sun) or reflections, and it seems fine.

So, it seems like I might have to be extra careful with my exposures with this camera. Now I'm wondering how different films (color etc) will behave in it. I can't seem to find too much info on how much anti-halation there is on, say Kodak Tri-X compared to HP5.
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Old 10-19-2018   #14
Moto-Uno
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That's pretty well the same as my experience , this however was with Kodak 400TX . It's as though the film could be held in place with more pressure . For now I'm aware of not shooting into a bright sun ( even though I thought the tree was blocking it )
Peter
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Old 10-19-2018   #15
Bill Clark
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Well, I was thinking, maybe put in a roll of film, wind to frame 1, let it sit for a while, in light. Then holding your hand over the lens or in a darkroom, trigger the shutter.
do this for a few frames.

Maybe put black tape over the seams where the door meets the camera body and do the same as above.

To me it looks like a light leak from somewhere.

On the back door of my Yashica Mat-124 there is a very tiny piece of black felt outlining the insside of the back door. Does yours have this? On mine the piece by the mechanism that holds the door in place by the ASA DIN table looks like it needs replacing but it doesn’t leak yet.
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Old 10-19-2018   #16
phoric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Clark View Post
Maybe put black tape over the seams where the door meets the camera body and do the same as above.

To me it looks like a light leak from somewhere.

On the back door of my Yashica Mat-124 there is a very tiny pice of black felt outlining the insside of the back door. Does yours have this? On mine the piece by the mechanism that holds the door in place by the ASA DIN table looks like it needs replacing but it doesn’t leak yet.
External light leaks were already ruled out, please see the top of my last post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto-Uno View Post
That's pretty well the same as my experience , this however was with Kodak 400TX . It's as though the film could be held in place with more pressure . For now I'm aware of not shooting into a bright sun ( even though I thought the tree was blocking it )
Peter
Thanks for sharing. It does look somewhat similar. One difference seems to be is that on my negatives, you can see that the bleeding/halation always terminates at a hard horizontal line. I wonder how T-Max would fare.

Yeah, maybe a pressure plate issue. Mine "feels" okay, not too loose or anything. Maybe it's a design thing. I have since found a handful of other mentions online of TLR's including Rollei's behaving like this.
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Old 10-19-2018   #17
phoric
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Sent an e-mail to Mark Hama to inquire on whether he has encountered this before on the 124G and if he recommends a repair.
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Old 10-19-2018   #18
Bill Clark
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You said you taped up the back of the camera.

Did you tape the bottom as well? Especially where the door meets the camera body.

Did you check the felt gasket material on the inside of the entire back?
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Old 10-20-2018   #19
Dan Daniel
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https://www.flickr.com/groups/yashic...earch=flocking


https://www.flickr.com/groups/yashic...7622734630140/


Put the film back in the camera as it would be sitting when shot. I bet you'll find that the hard line matches the bottom roller in the camera. The light is possibly both reflecting inside the camera and halationing (?? is that a verb even??) through the film. Like the first frame you show, the film was fogged before it was exposed, as it came off the spool and was 'waiting' to be the next frame.

Older YashicaMats had a very unflat black paint in the film chamber. You can add flocking or true flat black paint to reduce the internal reflections and it reduces veiling flare throughout images- a very nice upgrade. I don't remember if the 124G had a better material inside there.

Drop me a note with an address and I can send you a piece of telescope flocking material, thin flat black felt-type sheeting with adhesive backing. You can cut it to fit inside the chamber.
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Old 10-20-2018   #20
julio1fer
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A light leak, for sure.
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