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What should a new high end film camera look like?
Old 1 Week Ago   #1
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What should a new high end film camera look like?

I was thinking about this when I should have been working. If someone was going to step up to the plate and release an all new high end film (35mm) camera, what should it offer?
I say they need to dump the optical viewfinders (whether rangefinder or slr) and release one with an EVF. It actually makes far more sense to have an EVF on a film camera than a digital camera. Because with a digicam you have a zillion shots on that memory card, so can afford to mess up some exposures (or bracket).
With a film camera, you have 36 exposures. So you really have to make them count and what would really help would be able to view the actual exposure real time with an EVF.
Fuji already has jpeg film presets. That idea can be expanded (but doesn't really as exposure is more important than 'look' if you catch my drift).

So what say you? Should the upcoming Nikon F7 have an EVF? Because let's be honest, my F6 is really long in tooth now and what other changes can they make that actually are meaningful?
And Leica with the Q2... slap that design onto a QM/QF? Keep that hardware but toss that sensor for a roll that 36 individual sensors..
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Old 1 Week Ago   #2
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A re-release of the Nikon F3 with a modern viewfinder metering readout would likely be one of the best cameras ever.

Please no autofocus, and make the viewfinder higher magnification.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #3
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Call me old school
I prefer OVF to EVF any day
Even with aging eyes

EVF makes me ill, seasick so to speak ,...

I do like the Idea of presets, that would be cool !
Acros in the digi fuji’s is Sublime
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Old 1 Week Ago   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helenhill View Post
Acros in the digi fuji’s is Sublime
Agreed. In an afternoon yesterday it completely and totally changed my approach to using a digital camera rather than film.

My ideal would be simply a rangefinder with lenses capable of close focus, good viewfinder patch and an excellent built in meter.

SLRs- something small, autofocus and excellent metering.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #5
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I don't think an evf would help that much - with digital it literally is wysiwyg, with film it's as much as an approximation as an ovf is.
Some of the advances in af with tracking and face/eye detect would be nice, but not sure how feasible that would be without actually putting a digital sensor in there.

Otherwise film bodies matured with af. We're still getting any lens advancements if you're shooting with an f/ef/alpha mount body.

The one thing that's stalled that would be hugely beneficial is on the film side itself. Things like fine grained, high speed C41 or say production of film on a small scale that keeps it cheap for the consumer and profitable for the company.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #6
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The last thing I would want in a film camera is an EVF. I think the beauty of 35mm film cameras is their simplicity. I personally prefer manual cameras with meters and think film cameras peaked around the mid to late 70s and early 80s. Leica M6, Minolta CLE, Nikon FM/FE series, Olympus OM-1N, Pentax KX and MX—make me one of those brand new and I'd be all over it.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #7
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Something plastic, full of 3d printed parts.

Here will be no new high-end for film. Leica is true high end, but the only reason why they are doing it is availability of parts and else since those cameras were at peak of production decades ago.
Nobody is going to repeat it. Not profitable.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #8
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The only 'new' high-end film camera that makes any sense to me at all is if Hasselblad resumed production of the 503CW, and its accessories and lenses.

A Hasselblad V system body has a shot because of the recent announcement of the CFV50c II digital back, which permits continued, useful life for all Hasselblad 500 series bodies and lenses. With a new 503CW, or at least resumed parts production for the 500 series bodies, a buyer would have the choice of shooting film or digital depending on which back they desired to fit, could do film and digital changes in a single session, have a choice of a massive number of excellent second-hand lenses, switch to new XCD series lenses by swapping the body for a 907x, etc etc. Existing owners of Hasselblad equipment have completely compatible accessories and lenses already.

There's no point whatever to producing new 35mm high end cameras, there's simply no market for them. It would be a zero-profit venture which no sensible manufacturer could afford. Leica can continue with their film Ms because all of the production equipment is still in place, at the ready, and there's a reasonable if small continued market for the cameras.

Put an EVF into a film camera? Where are you going to get the high resolution digital image data to support a high quality EVF and TTL viewing/focusing? You'd have to build a digital camera that can also expose film ... where are you going to put that sensor that allows the film to be in the same place at the moment of exposure? Silly idea, and probably not workable in any practical way.

G
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Old 1 Week Ago   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Something plastic, full of 3d printed parts.

Here will be no new high-end for film. Leica is true high end, but the only reason why they are doing it is availability of parts and else since those cameras were at peak of production decades ago.
Nobody is going to repeat it. Not profitable.
I guess it depends on what your classification of 'high end' is. Leica's are expensive and well built, but they're not high end in terms of technology. The plastic AF SLR is more high end in that respect.

Probably the most advanced film camera we're going to get is the Nikon F6.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #10
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The point and shoot market seems to be a great place to start based on the prices of compact high end p&s cameras from the 90s.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
The point and shoot market seems to be a great place to start based on the prices of compact high end p&s cameras from the 90s.
Good point there. Manual cameras last virtually forever and there are plenty of them out there. The electronic point and shoots—even those made in the 1990s—are reaching or past their expected useful life.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
The point and shoot market seems to be a great place to start based on the prices of compact high end p&s cameras from the 90s.
You would hope that it isn't past the realms of possibility for Fuji to restart the Klasse platform or Ricoh the film GR series.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #13
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Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
You would hope that it isn't past the realms of possibility for Fuji to restart the Klasse platform or Ricoh the film GR series.
Well, it sure won’t be Nikon or Contax! It could be Leica too!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #14
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

Put an EVF into a film camera? Where are you going to get the high resolution digital image data to support a high quality EVF and TTL viewing/focusing? You'd have to build a digital camera that can also expose film ... where are you going to put that sensor that allows the film to be in the same place at the moment of exposure? Silly idea, and probably not workable in any practical way.

G
A TLR comes to mind. Imagine a digital/film hybrid Rolleiflex... The digital sensor would be behind the viewing lens. Film behind the taking lens. A camera like that could capture a digital AND film image at the same time.

Throughout history silly ideas have been the foundation of revolution.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #15
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My Contax Aria still seems perfect -- let's start there
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Old 1 Week Ago   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
I was thinking about this when I should have been working. If someone was going to step up to the plate and release an all new high end film (35mm) camera, what should it offer?
I say they need to dump the optical viewfinders (whether rangefinder or slr) and release one with an EVF. It actually makes far more sense to have an EVF on a film camera than a digital camera. Because with a digicam you have a zillion shots on that memory card, so can afford to mess up some exposures (or bracket).
With a film camera, you have 36 exposures. So you really have to make them count and what would really help would be able to view the actual exposure real time with an EVF.
Fuji already has jpeg film presets. That idea can be expanded (but doesn't really as exposure is more important than 'look' if you catch my drift).

So what say you? Should the upcoming Nikon F7 have an EVF? Because let's be honest, my F6 is really long in tooth now and what other changes can they make that actually are meaningful?
And Leica with the Q2... slap that design onto a QM/QF? Keep that hardware but toss that sensor for a roll that 36 individual sensors..
How would an EVF in a film camera even work? Have you actually thought this through? An EVF in a digital camera is a means to omit the complicated mechanism of a mirror and a prism, thus saving a lot of space. Trying to get an EVF into a film camera that shows exactly what's projected on the film would require quite an elaborate and complex mechanism. Silly idea.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #17
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Originally Posted by gavinlg View Post
A re-release of the Nikon F3 with a modern viewfinder metering readout would likely be one of the best cameras ever.

Please no autofocus, and make the viewfinder higher magnification.
F3 or a S series style camera would be killer
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Old 1 Week Ago   #18
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How would an EVF in a film camera even work? Have you actually thought this through? An EVF in a digital camera is a means to omit the complicated mechanism of a mirror and a prism, thus saving a lot of space. Trying to get an EVF into a film camera that shows exactly what's projected on the film would require quite an elaborate and complex mechanism. Silly idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
A TLR comes to mind. Imagine a digital/film hybrid Rolleiflex... The digital sensor would be behind the viewing lens. Film behind the taking lens. A camera like that could capture a digital AND film image at the same time.

Throughout history silly ideas have been the foundation of revolution.
Next question.


p.s how about a little positivity and inject into the conversation what you would like to see in a future film kamera?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #19
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Originally Posted by JoeLopez View Post
F3 or a S series style camera would be killer
F3n or SPn...

But what would the new features be that would make them different from the old models and thus worth getting?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie123 View Post
How would an EVF in a film camera even work? Have you actually thought this through? An EVF in a digital camera is a means to omit the complicated mechanism of a mirror and a prism, thus saving a lot of space. Trying to get an EVF into a film camera that shows exactly what's projected on the film would require quite an elaborate and complex mechanism. Silly idea.
Well, rangefinder cameras were made... they didn’t see what the film was seeing.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #21
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I would never, ever buy an EVF film camera. Never.



The last generation of film cameras were virtually perfect. I dont see much room for improvement. Canon 1V for sports or wildlife, Contax S2 or Nikon FM2n for those who want all manual, Zeiss Ikon and Leica for those who want manual rangefinders. Contax and Fujifilm p&s for those who want smaller cameras.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #22
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
I would never, ever buy an EVF film camera. Never.



The last generation of film cameras were virtually perfect. I dont see much room for improvement. Canon 1V for sports or wildlife, Contax S2 or Nikon FM2n for those who want all manual, Zeiss Ikon and Leica for those who want manual rangefinders. Contax and Fujifilm p&s for those who want smaller cameras.

Soooo... nothing to add? C'mon man, think out of the box.

I can see plenty wrong with the cameras you just mentioned. Zeiss does not have TTL flash and is battery dependant. Leicas have only 1/1000 sec top shutter speeds. FM2n has a terrible info readout in the VF where you have to look all over the place.
etc etc
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Old 1 Week Ago   #23
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Well, rangefinder cameras were made... they didn’t see what the film was seeing.

And just because I put my thinking beret on... sure there are workarounds to have both a digital sensor and film in the same body.
Let's think of the SLR format for a second. You know where the focus screen goes? Perpendicular to the film plane? Well replace that with the digital sensor, and have the film where the film always is. This version would still use a mirror to project onto the digi sensor - and the mirror could either flap out of the way so the film can be exposed, or it can be fixed and semi-transparent like in that high speed Canon film camera.
Et voila, film and digital in one body. I kinda like the TLR idea too though..
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Old 1 Week Ago   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie123 View Post
How would an EVF in a film camera even work? Have you actually thought this through? An EVF in a digital camera is a means to omit the complicated mechanism of a mirror and a prism, thus saving a lot of space. Trying to get an EVF into a film camera that shows exactly what's projected on the film would require quite an elaborate and complex mechanism. Silly idea.
I've actually thought about this for years. Being stuck in a wheelchair and unable to lift a camera up to get my eye on the viewfinder, I have often thought that it would be great to have a film camera with TTL live view on a tilting LCD.
A solution to your question already exists in the Sony A350 DSLR. https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/art...y_a350_lv.jpeg
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Old 1 Week Ago   #25
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The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Plug in the film type to the EVF and get an image that renders as the film would before you shoot it - it's how my Fuji XT30 works and it's obviously been done.
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Apart from that have a Rolleiflex 3.5F, the odd Minolta XD7, Hasselblad 500cm, a Topcon Super D and an Intrepid 5x4 large format (not the half of it but I am clearing them out, honest).

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Old 1 Week Ago   #26
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Soooo... nothing to add? C'mon man, think out of the box.

I can see plenty wrong with the cameras you just mentioned. Zeiss does not have TTL flash and is battery dependant. Leicas have only 1/1000 sec top shutter speeds. FM2n has a terrible info readout in the VF where you have to look all over the place.
etc etc

None of these concerns has much impact on me. I shoot my Nikon FM2n without any feeling of wanting more. I have only one camera with flash and hardly use it. My Canon 1V has a fast shutter if I need it. I have no issues needing batteries.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #27
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Originally Posted by CharlesDAMorgan View Post
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Plug in the film type to the EVF and get an image that renders as the film would before you shoot it - it's how my Fuji XT30 works and it's obviously been done.

None of Fujifilm's film simulations look *anything* at all like their namesakes. Not even close. Astia has more contrast than Provia, the exact opposite of the films in real life. Acros doesnt even remotely look filmlike. It's a 100% digital looking "film". Velvia is particularly ugly, with awful yellows. The film Velvia is beautiful, with gorgeous yellows.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
A TLR comes to mind. Imagine a digital/film hybrid Rolleiflex... The digital sensor would be behind the viewing lens. Film behind the taking lens. A camera like that could capture a digital AND film image at the same time.

Throughout history silly ideas have been the foundation of revolution.
Complex and expensive. Impractical for interchangeable lenses, as we saw with the Mamiya TLR cameras. Problems with parallax at close focus distances.

It would never have more than a tiny niche market. Never mind that, of course, you're not actually getting TTL viewing and focusing except on the digital portion of the camera.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #29
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
None of these concerns has much impact on me. I shoot my Nikon FM2n without any feeling of wanting more. I have only one camera with flash and hardly use it. My Canon 1V has a fast shutter if I need it. I have no issues needing batteries.
So ask yourself this.. how are u contributing here? This is meant to be a fun let’s hear some ideas thread. Play along
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Old 1 Week Ago   #30
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M3 or MP what else do you need to expose film?
Either you go analog all the way or stick with digital.
An EVF ...OK, tongue in cheek ... I get it.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #31
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Complex and expensive. Impractical for interchangeable lenses, as we saw with the Mamiya TLR cameras. Problems with parallax at close focus distances.

It would never have more than a tiny niche market. Never mind that, of course, you're not actually getting TTL viewing and focusing except on the digital portion of the camera.
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
So ask yourself this.. how are u contributing here? This is meant to be a fun let’s hear some ideas thread. Play along

I love people who completely miss the point of the thread.

Again, the thread title is 'what should a new high end film camera look like'

It's not 'let's be Debbie Downer and come up with no creative suggestions'
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Old 1 Week Ago   #32
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I'll take a high end Nikon SLR that uses all current F mount lenses.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #33
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Since we're speaking "high end" (since its in the thread title), the camera would need to be full-featured. All modes: P, S, A, M. Matrix metering, center weighted and spot. Exposure compensation. Auto-bracketing. Fast motor drive. Ability to use an IR remote release. TTL flash. Able to use a vertical grip (or at minimum a second release for vertical shooting). Big, crisp and bright optical viewfinder. Ability to illuminate any LCD panels or important buttons in dim light. Diopter adjustment. Long exposures with a regular cable release. Tripod socket in the center of the bottom plate, not in some stupid spot on one end. Ergonomic handgrip. Good split-image focusing screen. Match-needle meter readout while in manual mode. Built-in horizontal levelling aid at the press of a button.

Works with most or all of the camera manufacturers' old lenses...

I could probably come up with more...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #34
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M3 or MP what else do you need to expose film?
Either you go analog all the way or stick with digital.
An EVF ...OK, tongue in cheek ... I get it.
How would you improve those cameras? Obviously Leica thought to improve the M3 seeing they have not made it for decades. And the MP can be improved with a better shutter and better exposure information read out.
I have a bunch of Ms including MA, M7, M5, M3 etc etc. And with all of them I wished the shutter speed was much quicker than 1/1000. And I wish that the mechanical shutters are as accurate as the electronic one. 1/1000 is actually about 1/750 on the mechanical ones, it's only the M7 that is more accurate.
I would love a 1/4000 sec shutter etc etc Leica can keep the old cloth shutters for die hards, but could introduce the next gen model with a metal shutter. Nikon has made the mechanical 1/4000 shutter in the 1990s with the FM2.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #35
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Since we're speaking "high end" (since its in the thread title), the camera would need to be full-featured. All modes: P, S, A, M. Matrix metering, center weighted and spot. Exposure compensation. Auto-bracketing. Fast motor drive. Ability to use an IR remote release. TTL flash. Able to use a vertical grip (or at minimum a second release for vertical shooting). Big, crisp and bright optical viewfinder. Ability to illuminate any LCD panels or important buttons in dim light. Diopter adjustment. Long exposures with a regular cable release. Tripod socket in the center of the bottom plate, not in some stupid spot on one end. Ergonomic handgrip. Good split-image focusing screen. Match-needle meter readout while in manual mode. Built-in horizontal levelling aid at the press of a button.

Works with most or all of the camera manufacturers' old lenses...

I could probably come up with more...
Nice, you get it! Pretty much an F7. I like my F6 but stuff like its menu system is awful and really dated.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #36
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Nice, you get it! Pretty much an F7. I like my F6 but stuff like its menu system is awful and really dated.

Indeed; an updated F6 with some of the niceties that are standard nowadays on DSLRs would fill the bill!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #37
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I've actually thought about this for years. Being stuck in a wheelchair and unable to lift a camera up to get my eye on the viewfinder, I have often thought that it would be great to have a film camera with TTL live view on a tilting LCD.
A solution to your question already exists in the Sony A350 DSLR. https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/art...y_a350_lv.jpeg
Not the same thing. The EVF in the Sony you linked to shows what's on the focusing screen but the OPs whole reasoning behind an EVF was that it would provide a preview of the actual image including depth of field at the chosen aperture.
In any case, I'm not even saying it's physically impossible to accomplish but it's certainly not very practical.

As for your particular requirement for such a camera, are you sure that can't be achieved by modifying one of those camera adapter things that they use on microscopes? All you need is a decent camera pointing into the viewfinder and an external screen.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #38
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I'd like to see a compact that can actually slip into a pocket safely. That means weather/dust sealed and flat - pull all the registers with modern aspherics to make a lens (I'd prefer 28mm which isn't hard to make flat, but the real challenge would be a telephoto 50 that's really close to the film plane) that's flush with the body, a la XA. Make it AF and good at it or RF, or easy/quick to scale focus if 28mm, with a DOF scale. Give it a good finder which sits IN THE CORNER - that requires putting the rewind crank to the bottom, or auto wind/rewind, can't say I care much. Make the thing a little larger than an XA, but at least as flat.
Essentially I want a Rollei 35 with great 28mm lens, a little bit larger and more ergonomic, could be more automated or not.
Or call it a new, reliable CLE with pancake 28.
Or call it a new, reliable Ricoh GR1, with better finder, in the corner.
With weather/dust sealing.
If AE, give it exposure compensation and AE lock.
Make it look stylish and you'll sell a ton I think.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #39
B-9
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Location: Michigan
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Canon needs to slip a EOS 1V MKII out into our re-budding film niche.

Ditch the old modular grip design and make it static. Even better if it used a commonly available rechargeable.

Ide throw that on credit. Loll


Might be cool to have a EOS Rf. EVF with Film using the new mount!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #40
Steve M.
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I think a film camera's optical viewfinders is better than any EVF, and film cameras also offer unlimited exposure capability. Just bring more film. My ideal camera would be small, light, and have an old school lens (which has better IQ than today's over contrasty lenses). High end doesn't necessarily mean uber expensive, just well designed and well made.

Like this:

Give me one of those w/an RF, AE, and AE lock, and I'd buy it in a heart beat.
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