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Old 1 Week Ago   #41
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I already own this camera. It is called a Leica M7
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Old 1 Week Ago   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KM-25 View Post
I'll take a high end Nikon SLR that uses all current F mount lenses.
This.

Some of the new E series glass, like the 105/1.4 and 28mm/1.4 are up there in the rarified atmosphere with the best glass anyone has ever made, but you can’t use them on an F6 due to the way the aperture is controlled now. It’s not the resolution, it’s the rendering, which would transfer perfectly to film.

The F6 is probably the most competent, in photographic terms, film camera ever made. It does everything and it does everything well. Metering, shutter, AF quality, ad infinitum. Just update that, and, as Huss says, ditch the F6 menu system, which is probably the biggest reason I sold mine.

There’s your “high end” film camera. There’s nothing high end about fixed lens, pocketable compacts, even though it is possible to make one that is high end....for a compact purse camera.

I’d prefer an OVF, given the current state of the art of EVFs, but EVFs are likely to get there eventually. No engineer would ever claim that the idea of an EVF on a film body was “silly”. Not for me, but it’s hardly silly as a concept.

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Old 1 Week Ago   #43
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1++ to what was said above; the final iteration of film cameras like the Leica R9, Nikon FM2n/FM3a were just about perfect. And I doubt you’ll ever again see their like. If a film camera does appear, it will emulate the compact models of the 90’s (again, mentioned above). Don’t see an F7 anytime. The market is too small and the F6 is long-ago amortized.

EVF? Having a complex (not to mention bulky) system to record both analog and digital defeats the purpose. A compact camera, OVF with modern AF, highest performance short-zoom (35-70 or 28-50) or fixed FL and an f/1.2 or faster aperture, is more likely. Along with a 1/8000 sec shutter.

If it ever happens at all.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #44
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Thinking outside of the box on this one (at least trying not to be a downer):

Instead of introducing new film cameras, I would prefer that manufacturers consider establishing support and replacement parts for their better selling cameras from the past. If new film cameras were to be introduced then ideally they would be fairly basic in nature and kept as affordable as possible. This would provide an alternative to those consumers who do not like to buy used. Anything that manufacturers can do to increase the overall number of film camera users will ultimately lead to more demand for high-end film cameras. At that point camera manufacturers could think about expanding their focus (no pun intended).
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Old 1 Week Ago   #45
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How about a film body for the new Fuji digital medium format system? 127 film would be the perfect size (an opportunity to establish nearly exclusive film supply yourselves, are you listening, Fujifilm?) , but slightly panoramic crop to 135 or wasting some space on 120 might be more practical, perhaps the lenses even cover 645 well enough? Put some real thought into making it reasonably compact, give it a good optical view finder...
This would require a rangefinger-type af system like in the hexar at, contax g, Nikon L35 etc. Give us some kind of overlay in the viewfinder that shows the precise position of the at spot to account for parallax and it could be very accurate.

Or how about a body for m4/3 lenses that takes 16mm film, along the same lines as above? An opportunity to market special film, scanners, perhaps even enlargers and lenses... I'd buy that if somewhat affordable, squeezing the last bit of quality out of a small bit of film with high quality, precisely focused lenses would certainly give a great look, maximizing the impact of the film on the image as the film would be highly magnified, quite a logical step if film is mainly used for the look.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #46
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I want an iPhone 11 with a slot for Minox miniature film.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste_S View Post
I guess it depends on what your classification of 'high end' is. Leica's are expensive and well built, but they're not high end in terms of technology. The plastic AF SLR is more high end in that respect.

Probably the most advanced film camera we're going to get is the Nikon F6.
Electronics are absolutely nothing special today. F6 is just as high-end as high end calculator, because all what F6 does is available in consumer graded DSLR.

Same for EVF, it is not high end, it is dirt cheap mass made component comparing to mechanical marvel of Leica RF.

I realized what high end these days is after I went to Hamilton waterworks historical site. They can't replace some parts. Not because they can't make part. Nobody knows how to replace them anymore. Nobody left with knowledge of this precise work.

Same for cameras, stuffed with electronics and EVF camera is not high end.
It is another made in China.
But they can't build Leica M-A in China and soon they won't in Germany.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #48
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So, there are no high end electronics? Only something mechanical can be high end? I guess there will be no high end products in the future then.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #49
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Impossible to satisfy all people. Anything dreamed up or made will be a compromise.
Many have mentioned 35mm, both SLR and RF, Godfrey would prefer a 6X6. Maybe I would like a reissue of the Oly Pen FV, but with interchangeable screens. Who is right? Nobody and everybody. While were at it how about a return of 1 hour C-41 processing available everywhere, like it used to be.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #50
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Originally Posted by muser53 View Post
I already own this camera. It is called a Leica M7
I also own the M7 and it can definitely be improved. Starting with the shutter, segueing to the plastic film speed dial and ending with the awful battery cap.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #51
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I suppose before coming out with a new film camera we are going to have to agree on a lens mount. That ought to be easy.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james.liam View Post

EVF? Having a complex (not to mention bulky) system to record both analog and digital defeats the purpose. A compact camera, OVF with modern AF, highest performance short-zoom (35-70 or 28-50) or fixed FL and an f/1.2 or faster aperture, is more likely. Along with a 1/8000 sec shutter.

If it ever happens at all.
1. Why would an EVF be bulky? Says I as I type this on my phone which basically is a flat evf that can make calls and annoy people on rff.com. Also the evfs are tiny in m43 kameras like my Olympus PenF

b. you just described my Rollei QZ35w. P&S with 28-60 zoom that matches my Leica 28asph 2.8. And it has a shutter that goes from 16 secs to 1/8000 auto or manual!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
I suppose before coming out with a new film camera we are going to have to agree on a lens mount. That ought to be easy.
I suggest that if Nikon steps up here they can pick
their mount. Same for Leica. Hmmm I wonder what mount Lomo would pick?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #54
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It should have all the functionality of the Nikon FM3a and the reliability of the F2. Actually, the F2 is perfect, so if it were released with an eye level finder that had a meter readout, I would pay a few thousand for that. Maybe a titanium chassis to make it a bit lighter, but otherwise, the F2 is what it should look like with an updated finder.
I'm sorry but the EVF is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Add to that the fact that one would still have to have a reflex mirror for the EVF to work since the camera could not do this off the film plane. The image would have to be reflected into a prism then turned into digital information then projected. Why mess with a perfect system though?

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Old 1 Week Ago   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
1. Why would an EVF be bulky? Says I as I type this on my phone which basically is a flat evf that can make calls and annoy people on rff.com. Also the evfs are tiny in m43 kameras like my Olympus PenF
Ok, not to be negative, but you do realize that it's not the same thing, right? An EVF in a digital camera is basically just a small screen that displays what the image sensor is capturing. When you press the shutter all that happens is that the information that's captured by the sensor is saved. However, if you have film at the film plane instead of a sensor then you would need some fairly elaborate system to have a sensor capture exactly what is projected unto the film plane for the simple reason that the film and a digital sensor can't both occupy the same space in time.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie123 View Post
However, if you have film at the film plane instead of a sensor then you would need some fairly elaborate system to have a sensor capture exactly what is projected unto the film plane for the simple reason that the film and a digital sensor can't both occupy the same space in time.
The sensor would need to swing out of the way of the film plane when you snapped the shutter. I wonder if anyone has ever conceived of anything like that?

Anyway, not that elaborate, but none of this is going to happen anyway, due to market forces, or the lack thereof, not any kind of impossible engineering challenge.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I want an iPhone 11 with a slot for Minox miniature film.
I once owned a Minox subminiature camera. It’s one camera that an iphone is definitely better than.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie123 View Post
Ok, not to be negative, but you do realize that it's not the same thing, right? An EVF in a digital camera is basically just a small screen that displays what the image sensor is capturing. When you press the shutter all that happens is that the information that's captured by the sensor is saved. However, if you have film at the film plane instead of a sensor then you would need some fairly elaborate system to have a sensor capture exactly what is projected unto the film plane for the simple reason that the film and a digital sensor can't both occupy the same space in time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
The sensor would need to swing out of the way of the film plane when you snapped the shutter. I wonder if anyone has ever conceived of anything like that?
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
And just because I put my thinking beret on... sure there are workarounds to have both a digital sensor and film in the same body.
Let's think of the SLR format for a second. You know where the focus screen goes? Perpendicular to the film plane? Well replace that with the digital sensor, and have the film where the film always is. This version would still use a mirror to project onto the digi sensor - and the mirror could either flap out of the way so the film can be exposed, or it can be fixed and semi-transparent like in that high speed Canon film camera.
Et voila, film and digital in one body. I kinda like the TLR idea too though..

Already covered that. I mean how hard can this be?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
The point and shoot market seems to be a great place to start based on the prices of compact high end p&s cameras from the 90s.
100% agree. With the prices now being paid for Contax T3, Minolta TC-1, etc, there is certainly a market at a “high-end” price point. This would potentially make it economically feasible to actually produce high end p & s cameras using current production techniques.

Small and high quality is generally more appealing than large pro SLR sized cameras, particularly with the trend towards mirrorless camera design.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
......Actually, the F2 is perfect......

Phil Forrest
Yeah, Nikon could have stopped there, for people who just want to take normal photos, and have a huge support system for the body. I had an F2 and an F6 simultaneously for a long time, and when something had to go, I kept the F2 instead. On paper, that makes no sense, but in the hand, and up to the eye, it made a lot of sense.
Everything you need. Nothing you don’t. Not having to accommodate itself to AF, the VF is nicer for one thing. I know the F6 can do more things, but most people don’t need those things.
I guess it isn’t the ultimate futuristic high end camera, though, since it lacks “all the mod cons.”
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Old 1 Week Ago   #61
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I know what I would like. I want a reflex body that has multi-format/multi-registration capability.
That is, I want to use every 35mm lens ever made on it (using adapters) then I want the ability to switch out the flange to a shorter registration like C mount and 16mm film. I'll spool my own 16mm, than you. Using a series of gates at the film plane of the native 35mm camera, it could shoot 16mm panorama (like Cinerama ratio), Academy, Super16 and good old 3:4.
Maybe I should make a 16mm back for my 5x7...
Is this outside the box enough? 😎
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Old 1 Week Ago   #62
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Another consideration is price. Realistically, without the economy of large scale production, this thing will be what, $5K to 10K camera body? I like to dream, but when it comes to opening my wallet, on a fixed retirement income, ain't gonna happen.
Three or four years ago I stumbled onto a OM-4Ti that was 'jammed' for $35. I took the chance that it just needed a fresh set of batteries and that was the case. Already have what I need in OM mount Zuiko's so I'm set already set.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
F3n or SPn...

But what would the new features be that would make them different from the old models and thus worth getting?
I like the designations.
Not sure if there would be any additional features, what would we really need anyway?
Availability of a new camera and parts would be useful...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #64
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My design is one that utilizes the past, open source, and fun.

The basics can be printed on a good 3D printer, but the add-ons are specific and many. The same basic body is made out of metal for the company to sell for those who want a step up.

Built-in 1:1 viewfinder/rangefinder that you can slip in frame lines for the glass you are using. It's a fast camera to use (take pictures with) but not to change lenses on.

Initially, I want to use leaf shutters, but perhaps another non-printable upgrade would be a focal plain shutter (ala Speed Graphic).

The same basic design for 6x4.5 all the way up to 4x5. Graphlock backs but adaptable to other options (really wide frame 35mm....). Have better backs (that allow for changing rolls in the middle) would be a great higher-end option. I'm not sure I want to have the design flex for 24x35, way too many good options out there, this is an MF and larger design.

Let's have companies build parts that add functionality and then folks do their own things like sports finders, hand grips, fun stuff. Open source the ability to expand functionality and let's see what happens.

B2 (;->
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Old 1 Week Ago   #65
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Old 1 Week Ago   #66
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Whatever happened to the camera that was on Kickstarter recently; the one with the modular and replaceable lens mounts so you could use practically any kind of lens on it, and the replaceable film backs so you could switch films at any time? It also had an LED for strobe or modelling light/focusing aid and traditional, "70s-era" chrome and leatherette body design. Perhaps it would push all the buttons on many people's want list?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #67
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I would love a Leica (or other RF) with a viewfinder similar in design to the X-pro and X100 series OVF. The glass and RF patch can be as they usually are, but allow for electronic overlay of the rest of the information. That would allow for brighter frame lines that show up only one at a time. You could have framelines for any focal length, so no more 35mm framelines with the Voigtlander 40mm, instead you can always have the exact framelines for your lens. The metering overlay could be anywhere in the viewfinder, or even turned off if you wanted. The M-D doesn't have a screen, but uses Wifi to change settings so that could be implemented as well. You could fully customize the viewfinder to give a ton of information, or have it be completely clean with only the framelines and RF patch.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
I know what I would like. I want a reflex body that has multi-format/multi-registration capability.
That is, I want to use every 35mm lens ever made on it (using adapters) then I want the ability to switch out the flange to a shorter registration like C mount and 16mm film. I'll spool my own 16mm, than you. Using a series of gates at the film plane of the native 35mm camera, it could shoot 16mm panorama (like Cinerama ratio), Academy, Super16 and good old 3:4.
Maybe I should make a 16mm back for my 5x7...
Is this outside the box enough? 😎
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Originally Posted by css9450 View Post
Whatever happened to the camera that was on Kickstarter recently; the one with the modular and replaceable lens mounts so you could use practically any kind of lens on it, and the replaceable film backs so you could switch films at any time? It also had an LED for strobe or modelling light/focusing aid and traditional, "70s-era" chrome and leatherette body design. Perhaps it would push all the buttons on many people's want list?
That actually was very much like what Phil described. It was (is?) Reflex and I backed it like the naieve dummy that I am. Because I was so excited by the idea and the enthusiasm. Supposedly it will ship this year. But it was meant to ship last year. And I think it will never happen. But I really hope it will!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #69
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I would love a Leica (or other RF) with a viewfinder similar in design to the X-pro and X100 series OVF. The glass and RF patch can be as they usually are, but allow for electronic overlay of the rest of the information. That would allow for brighter frame lines that show up only one at a time. You could have framelines for any focal length, so no more 35mm framelines with the Voigtlander 40mm, instead you can always have the exact framelines for your lens. The metering overlay could be anywhere in the viewfinder, or even turned off if you wanted. The M-D doesn't have a screen, but uses Wifi to change settings so that could be implemented as well. You could fully customize the viewfinder to give a ton of information, or have it be completely clean with only the framelines and RF patch.
I love that idea. Do that with the next film kamera - Lets call it the M7+.. - and update the shutter (1/4000 or 1/8000 sec with 1/250 flash sync), fix the garbage ISO dial, fix the awful battery cap. Keep the traditional MP/MA for those who want old school.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #70
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I know you don't want anyone disagreeing with your idea (but such is the nature of the internet ), but I can honestly say I've never looked through the finder on my M2, MX or 500CM and thought 'gees this experience would be so much better with an EVF'...

Fancy film camera? Give me 1/8000" from a mechanical cloth focal-plane shutter and I'll be happy.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
I also own the M7 and it can definitely be improved. Starting with the shutter, segueing to the plastic film speed dial and ending with the awful battery cap.

Hey! How about a little positivity here? Just kidding! As much as I love my M6 TTL, I have to admit that it too is not perfect.

I think an SLR with all the features of the F3HP, but in a smaller body, with a better shutter speed display in the viewfinder, a higher top shutter speed, a higher flash sync speed, and a quiet shutter would be pretty darn cool.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #72
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Used film bodies especially from N, C, P, M are so cheap I doubt any company would be foolish enough to market a new camera. But the idea of a film body with EVF is interesting. I would be up for a mirrorless body that can via adapters accept any lens every made.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #73
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Quote:
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So, there are no high end electronics? Only something mechanical can be high end? I guess there will be no high end products in the future then.

The only high end electronics I see these days is for something where a lot of human work is still involved. For programming, R&D.

What kind of high end you could get with something primitive as film for still photography? I think it has to be not another ugly F6. Next to nobody needs it for professional use these days.
But something small and sexy with watch like gears, metal body and not really complicated electronics. Like 700$ I'm film shooter statement, show up camera. Something with genius design. Not just another Lexus/Fuji.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayt View Post
Used film bodies especially from N, C, P, M are so cheap I doubt any company would be foolish enough to market a new camera. But the idea of a film body with EVF is interesting. I would be up for a mirrorless body that can via adapters accept any lens every made.
All interesting ideas and agree that the market is flooded with pure manual cameras. As long as someone can freshen up the oil and there are parts, even from junked cameras, this is not the entree into the market.
Compact AF cameras are hot and selling for crazy money (the R8 and 35 Summicron I recently bought for 25% less than a Contax T3 is an indication and both cannot be repaired). The surviving units from the 90's with 1st gen AF and anti-deluvian mother boards are or have passed their prime and cannot be serviced.

Ricoh would be wise to consider releasing a new film GR. It would be a phenomenal success as the basic body and AF already exist for digital.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
I love people who completely miss the point of the thread.

Again, the thread title is 'what should a new high end film camera look like'

It's not 'let's be Debbie Downer and come up with no creative suggestions'
I love people who judge other people's opinions negatively because they do not agree with them. There's a reason I had you on my ignore list for a long time. You're back there now.

I gave you my opinion on what a new high-end film camera should be, and what I felt would not be worthwhile. You just don't like it. Sorry, but that's your problem.

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Old 1 Week Ago   #76
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Its been done...they even made lenses for it...in different mounts even. Heck I guess you could even say they made a system out of it fancy cases and all. They were even so bold as to make it a rangefinder. It's called Zeiss Ikon.

Fahrvergnügen...its what makes a camera a camera.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickthetasmaniac View Post
I know you don't want anyone disagreeing with your idea (but such is the nature of the internet ), but I can honestly say I've never looked through the finder on my M2, MX or 500CM and thought 'gees this experience would be so much better with an EVF'...

Fancy film camera? Give me 1/8000" from a cloth focal-plane shutter and I'll be happy.
No issue at all with disagreeing, but I guess what I would like to see are new ideas, a new direction with film photography. Because we already have so many film cameras available on the used market, making something that is just a warmed over version of that is not exactly imaginative. And doubtfully would give anyone a reason to buy that over a cheaper used alternative.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #78
Huss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarama View Post
Its been done...they even made lenses for it...in different mounts even. Heck I guess you could even say they made a system out of it fancy cases and all. They were even so bold as to make it a rangefinder. It's called Zeiss Ikon.

Fahrvergnügen...its what makes a camera a camera.
Is that the one made by Cosina a few years ago? It would be nice if they added a ttl flash system to it, gave it a hybrid shutter (or at least added a few mechanical speeds) so it wouldn't be battery dependant and maybe improved the build a bit.
But that really would be just incremental changes.
I really like the idea mentioned previously about adding a Fuji style hybrid optical/digital viewfinder to a film RF camera. Of course that would make it battery dependant, unless it only needed that for the digital part. With no battery power it would just revert to the traditional optical vf.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #79
nickthetasmaniac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
No issue at all with disagreeing, but I guess what I would like to see are new ideas, a new direction with film photography. Because we already have so many film cameras available on the used market, making something that is just a warmed over version of that is not exactly imaginative. And doubtfully would give anyone a reason to buy that over a cheaper used alternative.
I guess the issue for me is that the industry spent decades developing new directions and new ideas for film photography (metering, AF, electronic shutters etc. etc.), and yet the film cameras I actually own and use, when I could afford pretty much any consumer-level film camera ever made, are all manual and mechanical (with the honorable exception of the LX).

I'll put it this way... A 35mm version of the Nikon D850 or Z7 would hold zero interest for me. However, an update to my M2 that could achieve a mechanical 1/8000" with a cloth focal plane shutter - that's the stuff dreams are made of
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Old 1 Week Ago   #80
CMur12
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Huss, I think part of the lack of enthusiasm here may be that film shooters are largely photographic conservatives.


I know that I tend to look to older cameras that have the basic controls without unnecessary complications, as I know how to use those controls without the intervention of a computer. As such, I have to strain to get into the mindset of this thread.


However, I love TLRs and your idea of an EVF would probably work best in this format. The EVF would also be more useful for assessing tricky lighting than the old Polaroid backs.


Questions:

It seems to me that if you have an EVF, you must have the workings of a digital camera in addition to the film function. Is this what you have in mind (both digital and film capture in the same camera)?



Would it be possible to have a digital sensor and EVF without their own aperture and shutter?


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