How to dodge something dark behind many bright objects ?
Old 06-25-2015   #1
Lauffray
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How to dodge something dark behind many bright objects ?

I'm trying to print this, though this is is a negative scan and the print is more contrasty.

When I dodge the table in the lower half, I get some shadow details but the writing isn't exposed enough and when the writing is well exposed the table has very little shadow detail.
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Old 06-25-2015   #2
DominikDUK
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Split grade printing grade 5 for a short time to get good dark tones and the rest of the exposure around grade 1 1/2 to 2. Selenium toning also helps to give you a decent contrast. selective bleaching as chikne might help as well but it should be done as an additional step to the other tools available like split grade.

good luck
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Old 06-25-2015   #3
pesphoto
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try preflashing the paper before you expose to reduce overall contrast, this way you expose more for the darker table and the pre flash helps bring down the highlights...
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Old 06-25-2015   #4
zauhar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauffray View Post
I'm trying to print this, though this is is a negative scan and the print is more contrasty.

When I dodge the table in the lower half, I get some shadow details but the writing isn't exposed enough and when the writing is well exposed the table has very little shadow detail.
When you say the letters are not 'exposed enough' I am assuming you mean they don't show up as well against the lighter background produced by the dodging?

This would be a little work, but after making your base exposure (either using split grade as suggested or dodging) use a card with a small hole and burn around the letters, to make them more distinct against the lighter background.

Randy
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Old 06-25-2015   #5
Lauffray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zauhar View Post
When you say the letters are not 'exposed enough' I am assuming you mean they don't show up as well against the lighter background produced by the dodging?
Well compared to the test print with no filter, the letters aren't white, just very light grey and there's a little grain on their edges. When I print with the filter and dodge them, they're just white.
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Old 06-25-2015   #6
zauhar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauffray View Post
Well compared to the test print with no filter, the letters aren't white, just very light grey and there's a little grain on their edges. When I print with the filter and dodge them, they're just white.
Your test print can be made with a filter, you should be testing for optimal exposure with your test print/strips. Sounds like you have multiple variables in play!
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Old 06-25-2015   #7
BillBingham2
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Crazy but you might print a slightly smaller print and do cut out for burning and dodging.

Hard one to do in the analog world but a fun challenge.

Can you scan some of the tries and share so we can all learn?

Thanks and best of luck.

B2
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Old 06-25-2015   #8
DNG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
Crazy but you might print a slightly smaller print and do cut out for burning and dodging.

Hard one to do in the analog world but a fun challenge.

Can you scan some of the tries and share so we can all learn?

Thanks and best of luck.

B2
best way.. but time consuming....
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Old 06-26-2015   #9
Lauffray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DominikDUK View Post
Split grade printing grade 5 for a short time to get good dark tones and the rest of the exposure around grade 1 1/2 to 2.
Can you tell me more about how this works ? The grade 5 gently sets in the shadows and barely exposes the highlights ?
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Old 06-26-2015   #10
Lauffray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBingham2 View Post
Can you scan some of the tries and share so we can all learn?

Thanks and best of luck.

B2
Will do when I get home ! Hope the scanner is big enough
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Old 06-26-2015   #11
Lauffray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zauhar View Post
Your test print can be made with a filter, you should be testing for optimal exposure with your test print/strips. Sounds like you have multiple variables in play!
Truth be told it was more about remembering/experimenting as I pick up printing again, rather than to produce a good print. So yes I may have my tests all over the place
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Old 06-26-2015   #12
Lauffray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Clark View Post
Black mat?
How does it work ?

I already have printable versions made with PS, I want to know how to do it in the darkroom
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Old 06-26-2015   #13
Dwig
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You might consider "silver masking". This is a technique that was generally used for printing color transparencies, but can be used for B&W negatives.

In the linked tutorial, simply keep in mind that the negative of a negative is a positive. The masking film will be a weak positive when using the technique with B&W negs instead of the weak negative the is used when reversal printing color transparencies.

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/masking101.htm
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Old 06-27-2015   #14
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IMG_6369.JPG

Here's a side by side comparison of the prints. The one on the left is without filter, looks pretty even to me. The one with the abysmal burning on the right is done with grade 4 filter.

Also, what's up with the tiny upload sizes, 500x500 ?
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Old 06-27-2015   #15
zauhar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauffray View Post
Attachment 102456

Here's a side by side comparison of the prints. The one on the left is without filter, looks pretty even to me. The one with the abysmal burning on the right is done with grade 4 filter.

Also, what's up with the tiny upload sizes, 500x500 ?
Maybe try 2 1/2 and just burn right around the lettering?

Nice to see that I am not the only one who makes print .... after print ... after print ... ;-)

Randy

P.S. Did you try the previous suggestion to do it split grade? Part of the time at grade 0 and part at grade 4 or 5 (try 50/50 for initial test)
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Old 06-28-2015   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zauhar View Post
P.S. Did you try the previous suggestion to do it split grade? Part of the time at grade 0 and part at grade 4 or 5 (try 50/50 for initial test)
Yes I did, what a huge difference ! Takes longer to test and get your times right, but there's a huge improvement. I'll post some examples soon !
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Old 06-28-2015   #17
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Dye dodging is useful for this type of scenario and makes negatives where you can easily produce identical prints rather than having to learn a complicated set of dodge and burn procedures. For commercial clients where they had a very popular print that needed to be printed at the very highest standard I sometimes used unsharp masking (referred to above as "silver masking") with some dye dodging on the mask. Make the print overall slightly darker and bleach a little, adding selectively where needed (remembering that bleaching adds more highlight than shadow contrast).

Marty
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Old 06-29-2015   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
... I sometimes used unsharp masking (referred to above as "silver masking") with some dye dodging on the mask.
Holy F that's some process !
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Old 06-29-2015   #19
Lauffray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwig View Post
You might consider "silver masking". This is a technique that was generally used for printing color transparencies, but can be used for B&W negatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
... I sometimes used unsharp masking (referred to above as "silver masking") with some dye dodging on the mask. Make the print overall slightly darker and bleach a little, adding selectively where needed (remembering that bleaching adds more highlight than shadow contrast).y
Would this still be relevant if I use multigrade paper though ?
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Old 06-30-2015   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauffray View Post
Holy F that's some process !
Indeed. I had some demanding clients, and some of them had some pretty terrible negs. Heroics are usually only required where a photo is great and the neg is bad, or the situation it was shot in was difficult to impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauffray View Post
Would this still be relevant if I use multigrade paper though ?
Yes, absolutely. It lowers the overall contrast, allowing you to print at a higher contrast grade, increasing local contrast. There is also no reason not to dodge and burn (traditionally or with dye) while printing the neg sandwiched with the mask.

Marty
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