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View Poll Results: Is the Sony RX1R II a Leica Q killer ?
No Way - the cameras are substantially different 88 63.77%
Definitely - why buy the more expensive Q now? 50 36.23%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-16-2015   #41
micromontenegro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
The Sony FF mirrorless cameras are hilarious in a way.

Sales wise they are extremely successful so the Sony execs imagine they are doing great.

Still, imagine how they well the FF Sonys would be doing if Sony corporate just knew how to properly design cameras and how to market them - KINGS OF THE CAMERA WORLD.
It is quite possible that, outside the realm of certain aficionado groups, they are the kings of the camera world.
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Old 10-16-2015   #42
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Originally Posted by micromontenegro View Post
It is quite possible that, outside the realm of certain aficionado groups, they are the kings of the camera world.
Groups like Nikon and Canon users?
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Old 10-16-2015   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
Will the newly announced Sony RX1R kill Leica Q sales?
I don't know, and I really couldn't care less. Why does it matter?

I don't own stock in either company, so why should I care about anything other than the specific products that might be of interest to me that they produce?

G
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Old 10-16-2015   #44
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Groups like Nikon and Canon users?
And Leica users, of course! :-)
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Old 10-16-2015   #45
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Leica Q release is a genuine attempt by Leica to reach a broader market. A full frame sensor with a fast 28mm Leica lens and an EVF at $4200 seems like a bargain compared to other Leica digital cameras - at least for those who like 28mm focal length (the most common starting focal length in kit lenses).

So, those who love Leica still may go for Leica Q, but with a slight cognitive dissonance thanks to Sony's bold RX1R II and its DXO-chart-topping-42mp sensor.

Personally I like the Sony offering because I have no emotional relationship to digital devices, I buy a digital camera for its sensor, not its shell.
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Old 10-16-2015   #46
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
I don't know, and I really couldn't care less. Why does it matter?

I don't own stock in either company, so why should I care about anything other than the specific products that might be of interest to me that they produce?

G
so why post in a thread that you don't care about?

that is not discussion, its just being grouchy
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Old 10-16-2015   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
Will the newly announced Sony RX1R kill Leica Q sales?
Competition is good for consumers.
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Certainly not!
Old 10-16-2015   #48
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Certainly not!

....but it sure speaks well for the Sony RX!(R) that the new edition which is largely unchanged from the original is worthy of this question/thread. RX1 is a fine camera, capable of producing beautiful images.

All of these digital cameras require some getting used to. Some are worth the effort and I would say either of these fall into that category.

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Old 10-16-2015   #49
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Originally Posted by Hsg View Post
Leica Q release is a genuine attempt by Leica to reach a broader market.
How so when it is currently only being sold in limited quantities in its own boutique shops?
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Old 10-16-2015   #50
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How so when it is currently only being sold in limited quantities in its own boutique shops?
That is how Leica operates in order to avoid inventory build up, which forces prices down and destroys the 'boutique' element.
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Old 10-16-2015   #51
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They might be both cameras, but one is a from a camera company, the other from an entertainments company.

Now Leica has dropped the ball a few times since they went digital but they still are miles ahead of Sony when it comes to cameras, imaging, customer service and vision.

Disclosure: I'm far from a Leica fan, wouldn't touch them with a bargepole either.
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Old 10-16-2015   #52
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Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
so why post in a thread that you don't care about?

that is not discussion, its just being grouchy
It's compulsion
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Old 10-16-2015   #53
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I love the A7x series of cameras for their output, but agree with others who have mentioned that their control schemas/interfaces are terrible. The RX1R is not a Q killer, because while I would suspect that both Q and RX1R will be quite close in terms of image quality (as close as a 24 and 42MP camera can be to one another that is), the Q is about more than just image quality. It's also about experience, and the joy of using a well-designed, well-made piece of equipment as much as it is high ISO performance and sharpness and blah blah blah.

And I suspect that the word "joy" couldn't have come up much in the design priorities of Sony's camera control schemes/user experiences...unless Sony's design teams are full of sadomasochists.
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Old 10-16-2015   #54
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I want the Sony. Never had any interest in the Leica. The price is one matter. The focal length is the second matter. But maybe more important is the image quality I've seen from the first Sony. It has a 'magic' about it. I haven't seen anything from the Leica q that does anything for me. And the lesser (and worse) bokeh of the 28mm makes the q's images look closer to the 'constant DOF' look you get out of phone cams and small sensor cameras.
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Old 10-16-2015   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CK Dexter Haven View Post
I want the Sony. Never had any interest in the Leica. The price is one matter. The focal length is the second matter. But maybe more important is the image quality I've seen from the first Sony. It has a 'magic' about it. I haven't seen anything from the Leica q that does anything for me. And the lesser (and worse) bokeh of the 28mm makes the q's images look closer to the 'constant DOF' look you get out of phone cams and small sensor cameras.
You have a point about dof although, there is a "real time" quality to the Q images that smartphones usually do not have. Yes, .... Usually. I have seen some nicely realistic smartphone images. They do always lack that subject isolation that a shallow dof can give. This is where the Rx1 will always beat the Q!
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Old 10-16-2015   #56
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It is interesting that this new camera can be described as "largely unchanged from the original." I see changes in key areas--AF, VF--that make this a fully-realized camera in ways the predecessor was not. Reminds me of the difference between the Fujifilm X-E1, whose EVF I found unusably sluggish, and the X-E2, which I own and whose EVF I never even think about.

I, too, want the Sony and have not been drawn to the Leica. These sorts of attractions are personal and idiosyncratic, and influenced by he mix of gear we already own.
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Old 10-16-2015   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
so why post in a thread that you don't care about?
that is not discussion, its just being grouchy
Why is everyone so touchy about this camera?

I'm interested to know if the RX1r II might be a better performer than the competition, and why—what would make that so. Not whether it will rob sales from other camera brands; that's unimportant to me.

Sorry that you did not understand my question. It was asked in good faith.

G
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Old 10-16-2015   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Runkel View Post
It is interesting that this new camera can be described as "largely unchanged from the original." I see changes in key areas--AF, VF--that make this a fully-realized camera in ways the predecessor was not. Reminds me of the difference between the Fujifilm X-E1, whose EVF I found unusably sluggish, and the X-E2, which I own and whose EVF I never even think about.

I, too, want the Sony and have not been drawn to the Leica. These sorts of attractions are personal and idiosyncratic, and influenced by he mix of gear we already own.
Mathew,

I stated the new Sony was "largely unchanged" to emphasize the reason one would pay the kind of money a person paid to own an RX1 when it was introduced....image quality. Yes, the new RX1 camera has faster AF and a pop- up finder (albeit at the expense of on-board flash) but for me those are not a huge deal. That is not to say they aren't important to someone else out there.
With the XE 2, coming from the XE 1, there were changes in refresh rate and sensor, larger LCD and a host of other "improvements".

In any case I hope you get a new RX1RII and enjoy it!

David
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Old 10-16-2015   #59
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I stated the new Sony was "largely unchanged" to emphasize the reason one would pay the kind of money a person paid to own an RX1 when it was introduced....image quality. -- -- With the XE 2, coming from the XE 1, there were changes in refresh rate and sensor
I think the sensor update from RX1R to RX1RII is more significant than the sensor update between those Fuji X series versions.

While I agree the delta we see now is rather small considering the average camera product cycles, the new camera addresses many of the weak points of the original version (at least on paper and in marketing talk). It may be a worthwhile upgrade for many users and bring in many new customers. I am certainly considering the upgrade, although it may not work for me financially.
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Old 10-17-2015   #60
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I have had a used RX-1 for two years now, I got to borrow a Q for two hours. The Q is better in the hand, the autofocus is great next to the RX-1. However I prefer a 35mm lens, to me the files out of both cameras were fine, I felt the Zeiss lens was better then the Leica but that is splitting hairs. Both the RX-1RII and Q are too expensive for me, but if I had the money it would be the Sony.

Having a RX-1 has stopped any GAS for the last two years, that may be coming to a end with the new improvements, I keep thinking of adding a A7-SII I really like the RX-1 and being able to shoot in very little light with it, and would like to try a A7-SII with my 50mm Summilux.

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Old 10-18-2015   #61
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Another good thing about the Sonys is their values plummet rapidly.

So while this one may be too expensive for many of us now, it's bound to be alot more reasonable even in 6 months, used of course.

It looks like an RX1r can be had for a grand now.
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Old 10-19-2015   #62
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Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
Another good thing about the Sonys is their values plummet rapidly.

So while this one may be too expensive for many of us now, it's bound to be alot more reasonable even in 6 months, used of course.

It looks like an RX1r can be had for a grand now.
They have learnt from Leica to ask steep prices, that Canikon only command for their top models, also due to their PRO-support, not only at sports events but with good loaners arriving overnight. Leica now thinks, that they can cut down on their CC, noticing that Sony's virtually non-existent. I think both companies, Christmas sales to ammateurs aside, stand in for a surprise.
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Old 10-19-2015   #63
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They have learnt from Leica to ask steep prices, that Canikon only command for their top models, also due to their PRO-support, not only at sports events but with good loaners arriving overnight. Leica now thinks, that they can cut down on their CC, noticing that Sony's virtually non-existent. I think both companies, Christmas sales to ammateurs aside, stand in for a surprise.
What is CC?

If you mean "customer service", with respect to Leica I disagree 100%. I've never had any other company go as far on the extra mile to help me out as Leica has, with their area tech rep actually calling me up unbidden to ask if I'd like to try different equipment and a different approach based on a comment sent in email to New Jersey, after the issue had already been resolved.

G
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Old 10-19-2015   #64
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For me every Sony camera feels and acts like a Nintento Game.
Leica is still pretty much a real camera in many regards.

Also the images from Sony look more digital than Leica.
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Old 10-19-2015   #65
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For me every Sony camera feels and acts like a Nintento Game.
I guess you mean Playstation game

I feel some people are less forgiving to Sony then they are to, say, Nikon. I guess most is just what you do or don't like - it is very personal.
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Old 10-19-2015   #66
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They have learnt from Leica to ask steep prices, that Canikon only command for their top models, also due to their PRO-support, not only at sports events but with good loaners arriving overnight.
I think your comparison is telling, working with Sony warranties is unimpressive, and when you actually talk with customer service you learn these are outsourced contractors reading from a script.

It's shocking to me that the A7r2 now is the most expensive full frame body, except for Leica and the Canon 1D.

But the idea that Sony has learned anything from anyone I find unlikely and that is the whole problem. They have invented these machines in a complete vacuum with the features we like (mount compatibility), being basically total accidents.

Worse than not learning from Canikon/Leica in any respect, they are utterly deaf to their customers as well.

It's a parallel universe. LOL

Now the new RX1 II is wonderfully small, with great performance aside from miserable handling. But in the case of the A7, evolved from the Nex-5, which really was well done in many ways, peaking with the 5n, they have totally lost the plot and tied themselves in a knot with the thick sensor cover. It doesn't just mean the A7 series hates many M and LTM lenses, it requires that native lenses be larger than would otherwise be necessary.

This is where the new SL does have a big opening for innovation. The Pros love those D810s and fast zooms, but they don't love to carry them. EVF, short register and M240 style sensor cover would theoretically allow for fast Zooms half the size and weight of a pro DSLR.
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Old 10-19-2015   #67
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Voted no, since I am not interested in either camera, so for some of us, or perhaps a lot of us, neither camera is of interest and the sony release of their camera will definitely not impact any decision regarding the Leica Q or any other camera purchases.
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Old 10-20-2015   #68
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That is how Leica operates in order to avoid inventory build up, which forces prices down and destroys the 'boutique' element.
Huh? ......
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Old 10-20-2015   #69
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It's shocking to me that the A7r2 now is the most expensive full frame body, except for Leica and the Canon 1D.
Nikon D4s, Nikon D810a, Canon 5ds / R, etc
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Old 10-21-2015   #70
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working with Sony warranties is unimpressive
My experience with Sony warranty is good. The way they handled warranty claims for Minolta cameras was even great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
Worse than not learning from Canikon/Leica in any respect, they are utterly deaf to their customers as well.
They did learn. They changed the NEX menu system, they introduced a new flash hot shoe, they improved the handling on the mark II A7 cameras - they aren't better or worse in this respect compared to other makes.
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Old 10-22-2015   #71
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So, apparently, a friend of mine has checked out the RX1R II today and has confirmed that the EVF will stay in place when resting your eye against it.
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Old 10-22-2015   #72
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But the idea that Sony has learned anything from anyone I find unlikely and that is the whole problem. They have invented these machines in a complete vacuum with the features we like (mount compatibility), being basically total accidents.

Worse than not learning from Canikon/Leica in any respect, they are utterly deaf to their customers as well.

It's a parallel universe. LOL
.
Actually, I suspect that the original product line managers for the nex line were probably Sony (play station as some else or u have inferred). The a6000 and the a7 families, w/ the change to a config menu design that is similar to their dslr line makes me wonder if the original crew was replaced by product line managers from the a mount dslr line. The heritage of that line come from the Minolta/Konica camera company. I have been told that are still people from that company that still work for Sony. How much real influence they have on decisions is debatable considering the lossy raw compression issue that was in all their cameras until recently.

I will never buy the q , but the decision to go 28 as opposed to 35 is a none starter for me. Otherwise, the setup of the q is just about perfect. The Sony is probably gonna be close enough for most people.....

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Old 10-22-2015   #73
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Don't forget that they replaced that awful, plastic, port flange. I bemoaned its existence when the A7 and A7R were originally released, and now it's nowhere to be found. And to reiterate the firmware update that included an uncompressed RAW option is a great win for Sony users.

It seems they listen to users after the fact. But for some reason it also seems as though there isn't a single photographer among the engineering or design staff. It's baffling.

That said, all I want is a non-af fixed lens 50mm compact with fully manual controls and no lcd (just a nice EVF). Throw in a full frame Foveon Merrill or a monochrome sensor and I'll be set for the next decade or so. Maybe I'd be the wrong person to ask.
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Old 10-27-2015   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthfeeble View Post
I voted no, just because of the Leica "mystique". There's just something about holding a Leica that can't be denied.
I did the same thing As i am devoted to Leica. I know I am wrong and silly .
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Old 11-26-2015   #75
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So, did anyone get a RX1R II? It appears some have reached people...
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Old 12-03-2015   #76
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Ok, ordered one... not sure when it'll actually be shipped though.
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Old 12-03-2015   #77
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Looking forward to your thoughts. Instead of the Q, I find the A7SII a bit more of a challenge.
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Old 12-03-2015   #78
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Just arrived. Will be doing a Q vs II shootout...
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Old 12-03-2015   #79
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Nice!!!!!!
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Old 12-03-2015   #80
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For me, it would be the Q, solely because of the Focal length.

Between the brands I'd much rather go with Sony than Leica. I have an RX100, I've not noticed any of the menu problems people complain about from Sony, but then I was born in 1980, so perhaps I'm just used to it.

The real Q killer for me though is the Ricoh GR.
It's APSC, it has a slower lens, but my god it's good, and I could shoot 6 of them to destruction for the price of a Q.
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