Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Rangefinder Forum > Optics Theory -

Optics Theory - This forum is aimed towards the TECHNICAL side of photographic OPTICS THEORY. There will be some overlap by camera/manufacturer, but this forum is for the heavy duty tech discussions. This is NOT the place to discuss a specific lens or lens line, do that in the appropriate forum. This is the forum to discuss optics or lenses in general, to learn about the tech behind the lenses and images. IF you have a question about a specific lens, post it in the forum about that type of camera, NOT HERE.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

What double gauss lenses are out there?
Old 07-16-2017   #1
De_Corday
Eternal Student
 
De_Corday is offline
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn via NJ
Posts: 362
What double gauss lenses are out there?

My two favorite lenses for black and white work are both double-gauss 50's -- the F-mount Nikkor HC 50 f/2 and the Canon LTM 50 /1.4

Theres something about the transition to OOF and the mild contrast that works a treat on film.

I would love a mild wide-angle (28-35) and a mild tele (75-90) in M mount or LTM with a double gauss design and a similar rendering... Any suggestions?
__________________
http://simkobednarskiphoto.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-16-2017   #2
Shac
Registered User
 
Shac is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
Posts: 946
In 35mm I believe both the Summarons and Summicrons (pre-asph) series are double gause designs
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-16-2017   #3
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
 
Juan Valdenebro's Avatar
 
Juan Valdenebro is offline
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Barcelona and Colombia
Age: 45
Posts: 4,347
CV 28 3.5 Skopar. It's LTM, no distortion.
__________________
F i l m means fun!
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-16-2017   #4
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,224
6 elements / 4 groups, my favorites

- canon 100/2, the perfect match to your canon 50/1.4
- 35 Summicron v3

If you need 28, try the MS Optics Apoqualia-G 28mm f2.

Roland.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #5
naren
Registered User
 
naren's Avatar
 
naren is offline
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 121
I believe the Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 is a celebrated double guauss design.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #6
popavvakum
Registered User
 
popavvakum's Avatar
 
popavvakum is offline
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Between two Yorkshires
Posts: 36
Well, there should be plenty as any Planar-type lens is a derivative of double Gauss form:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Gauss_lens

and there are sketches galore there down the line.
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------
So, how do you say you focus the mind?
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #7
teddy
Jose Morales
 
teddy's Avatar
 
teddy is offline
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Australia
Age: 37
Posts: 267
The Summicron 35/2 Type 1 is a double gauss design with 8 elements. I vouch for it.
__________________
View my Flickr space
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joseantoniomorales/
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #8
Archlich
Registered User
 
Archlich is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Valdenebro View Post
CV 28 3.5 Skopar. It's LTM, no distortion.

I believe it's a non symmetrical retrofocus design.



The Avenon/Kobalux 28/3.5 looks like double gauss.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #9
Hern
Registered User
 
Hern is offline
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 73
The 35mm Cron and it's derivatives - Canon 35 f2 ltm, UC-Hexanons to name a few.

The Voigtlander 35 f2.5 is also symmetrical enough to be a close derivative of the double Gauss.

I own 2 double Gauss lenses myself, the 50mm f1.5 Nokton LTM and the L-Hexanon 50mm f2.4, the latter of which performs exactly like you describe your rendering to be like.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #10
Jockos
Registered User
 
Jockos's Avatar
 
Jockos is offline
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sweden
Age: 29
Posts: 917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hern View Post
I own 2 double Gauss lenses myself, the 50mm f1.5 Nokton LTM and the L-Hexanon 50mm f2.4, the latter of which performs exactly like you describe your rendering to be like.
I wouldn't call the Nokton a double gauss.



__________________
Don't trust anything I say or write before I get my morning coffee, at least I don't.

Da gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #11
jcb4718
Registered User
 
jcb4718 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 110
I'm not sure double gauss by itself leads to a pleasing transition to OOF and mild contrast. Spherical aberration is caused by the different focal lengths of rays, axial vs. peripheral. Double gauss lenses seem to try and correct this by guiding axial rays to the periphery where, it seems, they act like peripheral rays i.e. tend to have the same focal length. This increases sharpness but the downside, if the spherical aberration is over-corrected, is an OOF disc with a ring like structure (the 'ring' being the peripheral rays). Not pleasing, to me at least. Double gauss lenses can have lower contrast because of the relatively large number of glass-air interfaces although the advent of anti-reflection coatings addressed this 'drawback'. Sonnar lenses seem to tick to a different beat: however it is done, these lenses are quite sharp and yet have a pleasing OOF transition. I think to get a lens with a pleasing OOF transition and mild contrast is a particular embodiment of a design rather than a particular design.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #12
De_Corday
Eternal Student
 
De_Corday is offline
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Brooklyn via NJ
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcb4718 View Post
I'm not sure double gauss by itself leads to a pleasing transition to OOF and mild contrast. Spherical aberration is caused by the different focal lengths of rays, axial vs. peripheral. Double gauss lenses seem to try and correct this by guiding axial rays to the periphery where, it seems, they act like peripheral rays i.e. tend to have the same focal length. This increases sharpness but the downside, if the spherical aberration is over-corrected, is an OOF disc with a ring like structure (the 'ring' being the peripheral rays). Not pleasing, to me at least. Double gauss lenses can have lower contrast because of the relatively large number of glass-air interfaces although the advent of anti-reflection coatings addressed this 'drawback'. Sonnar lenses seem to tick to a different beat: however it is done, these lenses are quite sharp and yet have a pleasing OOF transition. I think to get a lens with a pleasing OOF transition and mild contrast is a particular embodiment of a design rather than a particular design.
That's a good point. My Nikkor HC and the LTM /1.4 are both of the same era and country of manufacture, so there's likely more going on than simply similar designs.

Also, I think we're on the same page, but just to be sure: what I love about these lenses is less the bokeh, which I don't find at all offensive, as some do, nor do I love it. But what I do love is the way the in-focus areas transition towards the bokeh. Theres a smoothness to how the focus runs out.

You bring up a Sonnar design... the Sonnar I'm most familiar with is the Jupiter 8, of which I've shot a few. I find it to be very, very sharp (on film at least) with very pleasing bokeh, but there's a clear delineation, to my eye, between the in-focus area and the OOF.

I guess the only way to be sure is to get my hands on a couple of these other double-gauss lenses and see if they do the same thing.
__________________
http://simkobednarskiphoto.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #13
jcb4718
Registered User
 
jcb4718 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 110
Well, its a black art, lens design, but I think in very general terms, if you push too hard in one direction it can be at the expense of something else, whatever the basic design. I just have this feeling that increasing lens sharpness can ultimately impact the OOF areas. I personally like a 'pleasing' OOF (and the transition to OOF). Its more apparent than sharpness when you are looking at a picture as a whole.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #14
filmtwit
Desperate but not serious
 
filmtwit's Avatar
 
filmtwit is offline
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: West Coast
Posts: 2,621
The Nikkor 50mm f1.4 Millennium is a double gaussian design.
Though the Nikkor-sc and hc in S mount are both sonnars.
__________________
Instgram
https://www.instagram.com/filmtwit/

The Flickr Stream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/filmtwit/


The Blog (Boring Sidney, Boring)
http://jeffthomasallen.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #15
jonmanjiro
Moderator
 
jonmanjiro's Avatar
 
jonmanjiro is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Yokohama
Posts: 4,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmtwit View Post
The Nikkor 50mm f1.4 Millennium is a double gaussian design.
Though the Nikkor-sc and hc in S mount are both sonnars.

the c in hc or sc just indicates coated and was dropped on later lenses. A better indicator is whether the lens focal length is marked cm or mm. The sonnar formula lenses are marked cm and the double gauss formula lenses like the millennium are marked mm.
__________________
flickr
Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #16
nukecoke
⚛Yashica
 
nukecoke's Avatar
 
nukecoke is offline
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Sweden/China
Posts: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockos View Post
I wouldn't call the Nokton a double gauss.

I would call it an Ernostar variation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Valdenebro View Post
CV 28 3.5 Skopar. It's LTM, no distortion.
http://cameraquest.com/jpg4/vm-28.35.gif

It does not look like one to me.
__________________
tumblr

flickr

About Film Cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #17
Corran
Registered User
 
Corran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by naren View Post
I believe the Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 is a celebrated double guauss design.
Rangefinder version is a Sonnar.

First version F-mount with larger rear element is a Sonnar.

Later F-mount version is a double-gauss.

(DG is sharper and focuses closer, S has smoother bokeh and more classic look)
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #18
Hern
Registered User
 
Hern is offline
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockos View Post
I wouldn't call the Nokton a double gauss.



Looking closer, I stand corrected. I would also make the amendment that it is the Voigtlander 35 1.4 which has the double Gauss design, not the 2.5 pancake.

We can't have false information floating about the web, after all!
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #19
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 11,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hern View Post
Looking closer, I stand corrected. I would also make the amendment that it is the Voigtlander 35 1.4 which has the double Gauss design, not the 2.5 pancake.

We can't have false information floating about the web, after all!
Hmm. The aspherical element in the 1.5 Nokton replaces 2 elements, and therefore, it can be considered a back-extended Ultron (see also http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=156630), which itself is derived from the Planar. In a way, there are so many lenses "derived" with additional elements, airspaces, etc., from the Planar that the OP's question is hard to answer if you allow all of them, plus, how they render, is dependent - of course - on how they are optimized.

I thought the OP asked for lenses more similar to the two he mentioned, and respectfully suggest that we restrict ourselves to true Planar 6/4 designs. Like the 6 element Summicron or the 100mm Canon that I mentioned above. (For its speed, the 6 elements in the Canon 50/1.4 are quite unique). Plus, both the Summicron and 100mm Canon do have the interesting "transition to OOF", I feel, which the OP is looking for.

Roland.
  Reply With Quote

Old 07-17-2017   #20
Archlich
Registered User
 
Archlich is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 790
Slightly off topic, but I found the 55/4.5 Nikkor lens on the Plaubel Makina W67 to be a Topogon design. People love this lens. Could be the last of its kind.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:47.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.