Old 10-03-2017   #41
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Because there hasn't been an analog resurgence.
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Old 10-03-2017   #42
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Oh yes, there has. It went from 0.01% to 0.03%. An increase of 200%.
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Old 10-03-2017   #43
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Originally Posted by zuiko85 View Post
A sober, and probably quite accurate assessment. I would not call it 'doom and gloom', but just the facts of the matter.
I wouldn't say doom and gloom at all. We're seeing some really great new products come into the market and Ektachrome reintroduced. This shows manufacturers can make a worthwhile profit. I think film is here to stay but it's never going back to predigital prices or even close.
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Old 10-03-2017   #44
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Oh yes, there has. It went from 0.01% to 0.03%. An increase of 200%.
So another 4,000 rolls per month.

Time to build another Rochester plant.
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Old 10-04-2017   #45
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Originally Posted by SaveKodak View Post
(snip) I'd still rather have 12 real photographs vs a theoretical infinite number of etherial files.
The attraction of film in a nutshell, for me
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Old 10-04-2017   #46
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Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
Where did you get that figure from?
Where the sun don't shine, I reckon. Posts long on generalisations, very lacking on facts.
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Old 10-04-2017   #47
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I think the simple explanation is that many of the master-rolls have been used up and the fact that even with a resurgence, the marked is still only a few percent of what is once was.

There used to millions of consumer-rolls shot every year, in addition to the professional marked and the cinema-industry, today's marked is a tiny fragment in comparison....that's no secret, that's just how it is.

Prices in general tend to go up and not down as well, I am sure people remember that they could get stuff for 1 cent and things like that, way back when.....and today even a whole dollar will not get you the same.
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Old 10-04-2017   #48
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Originally Posted by Spanik View Post
Oh yes, there has. It went from 0.01% to 0.03%. An increase of 200%.
Next month if it settles back to 0.02% we'll be moaning that film is dying again.

I realize we're being silly but the point is, the market is so tiny now compared to what it was 20 years ago, that even the tiniest fluctuations can be misinterpreted as sea changes in one direction or the other.
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Old 10-04-2017   #49
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Hers a little article that might give insight into why pricing went up and what happened to Kodak. It's a look from inside Kodak.

https://www.google.com/amp/sloanrevi...s-decline/amp/

Another article I found that was written in 2012 said Kodak shrank from 145,000 employs to 18,000. That should tell us something about what happened to film consumption.
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Old 10-04-2017   #50
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B&H says Ektachrome will be available 4th quarter; although they don't show it for sale just yet.
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Old 10-04-2017   #51
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I'm looking forward to Ektachrome coming back. Hopefully they won't change it. The E100 films were excellent.
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Old 10-04-2017   #52
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I'm looking forward to Ektachrome coming back. Hopefully they won't change it. The E100 films were excellent.
When I was shooting Missouri's springs and streams some years ago, I tried Kodachrome, Ektachrome, and Fuji. Ektachrome EPP100 proved to give the best rendition of the blue of the springs, and the green plant life growing there.
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Old 10-04-2017   #53
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When I was shooting Missouri's springs and streams some years ago, I tried Kodachrome, Ektachrome, and Fuji. Ektachrome EPP100 proved to give the best rendition of the blue of the springs, and the green plant life growing there.
I shot a lot of EPP in sheet sizes, even 11x14 on product shoots. It was a good film and fairly honest in rendition. I wound up migrating to EPR (64) and like the tonality a little better. The colors were very natural but there was betterctonal separation and a little more punch.

When E6 an T grain emulsions appeared Kodak introduced a new one of chromes. It was in the late 80's and early 90's. I don't remember the designation for it but was supposed to be 100 ISO but fell short by 1/3-2/3 stop. Colors were muddy and contrast was ho hum. It was pretty quickly replaced with Ektachrome 100S, SW & VS which were all superior products. S was the neutral color, sw the warmer rendition and VS the saturated emulsion.

I did a lot of fashion for publication at that point and loved the SW. It was just slightly warmer than the S but really complemented shin tones. The VS was great for product. It was really rich but not as bold as Velvia but approaching Provia. The beauty of vs was the longer tonal scale compared to the very contrast Velvia. When I needed a neutral rendition like with fabrics and carpet Scwas the trick.

In the 90's it was a great time for E6 materials. We had the above Kodak products and Fujis Velvia and Provia. In addition we had Agfa 50 and 100 which had beautiful soft pastels and a beautiful warmth.

I used all of these depending on the job and wish we had the choices today.
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Old 10-04-2017   #54
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Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
Hers a little article that might give insight into why pricing went up and what happened to Kodak. It's a look from inside Kodak.

https://www.google.com/amp/sloanrevi...s-decline/amp/

Another article I found that was written in 2012 said Kodak shrank from 145,000 employs to 18,000. That should tell us something about what happened to film consumption.
Thanks for posting. Unfortunately I can't read the article without subscribing so I'll have to miss reading through this set of excuses, er, reasons.

I'm sure that Kodak management can trot out any number of reasons why they missed the boat. The biggest reason is that they were a bloated organization without a vision. They needed another George Eastman but didn't have one.

Fuji was already starting to eat Kodak for lunch well before the digital monster consumed Kodak. Digital was just the last straw, it certainly was not the first evidence of management incompetence.

It is rather interesting that Fuji seems to have succeeded where Kodak stumbled. A comparison of the actions taken by both companies during this period would certainly be interesting.
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Old 10-04-2017   #55
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Cool

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Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
Thanks for posting. Unfortunately I can't read the article without subscribing so I'll have to miss reading through this set of excuses, er, reasons.

I'm sure that Kodak management can trot out any number of reasons why they missed the boat. The biggest reason is that they were a bloated organization without a vision. They needed another George Eastman but didn't have one.

Fuji was already starting to eat Kodak for lunch well before the digital monster consumed Kodak. Digital was just the last straw, it certainly was not the first evidence of management incompetence.

It is rather interesting that Fuji seems to have succeeded where Kodak stumbled. A comparison of the actions taken by both companies during this period would certainly be interesting.
Fuji made inroads into the US market and I'm sure Kodak felt it particularly in tha amateur market but Kodak still dominated the pro market.

My Kodak TSR from the 70's, Jeff McLeod, remains a friend. I actually called him this morning. He's retired but advanced from a technical field rep to head of the commercial division. I need to ask him his take on what happened though I found he's not into talking old Kodak business.

I read an interesting article from an interview with the guy at Kodak who invented the digital camera. He stated his boss rejected most new technology to the point he refused to use an electric typewriter. He insisted on using an old mechanical typewriter. His boss stated there would be no digital or computer technology there as long as he was in charge. The fellow who invented the digital camera had to do it in secret. He stated if he'd been caught he'd been fired. Amazing, yes?

Kodak made a lot of stupid moves as we know. They had one if not the first full frame Dslr. They introduced the 14N way before it was ready. It was plagued with color shifts across the frame especially with wides. Kodak repeatedly said they had the fix but nothing happened. Then Kodak introduced a new version stating everything was fixed. Those that bought into the new model had exactly the same problems. Kodak finally abandon their digital pro market customers leaving them stuck with junk that was basically unusable. Tha was the nail in the coffin for the pro digital market.
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Old 10-04-2017   #56
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Film is expensive when someone tries to use it as it was used up to the 90's for commercial work if we talk about constant sessions with hundreds of images per session, unless you're a very well paid photographer and nothing matters...
For amateur and beginner's use, and even for serious work with quality above quantity, film is not that much more expensive now, just a bit...
A few rolls a month give a few hundreds of images a month: IMO it's about getting some of them well done, and not about shooting more...
100 ft. rolls by Ilford are a lot cheaper than Kodak's, so thank you Ilford!, and Kentmere films, made by Harmann Ilford, cost even less, and they're great films...
I admire recent years Ilford's public commitment in relation to film photography, and I support them happily.
Hasn't Harmann Industries been sold odd to a firm eyeing the property the plant is built on for a real estate development scheme?
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Old 10-04-2017   #57
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Too many people missing the boat here.

Retailers can increase the cost because supply is low and demand is going higher.

Unfortunately, demand isn't high enough that film companies are willing to put the upfront costs of doing extra production runs.

My long winded point is that there might be a resurgence of film, but that resurgence is so insignificant to big manufacturers that they don't even want to run 1 extra run of their most popular film.

So if the big companies aren't buying in, then is there a real resurgence of film? Or has it just hit it's resting place in the market?
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Old 10-04-2017   #58
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Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
Fuji made inroads into the US market and I'm sure Kodak felt it particularly in tha amateur market but Kodak still dominated the pro market.

My Kodak TSR from the 70's, Jeff McLeod, remains a friend. I actually called him this morning. He's retired but advanced from a technical field rep to head of the commercial division. I need to ask him his take on what happened though I found he's not into talking old Kodak business.

I read an interesting article from an interview with the guy at Kodak who invented the digital camera. He stated his boss rejected most new technology to the point he refused to use an electric typewriter. He insisted on using an old mechanical typewriter. His boss stated there would be no digital or computer technology there as long as he was in charge. The fellow who invented the digital camera had to do it in secret. He stated if he'd been caught he'd been fired. Amazing, yes?

Kodak made a lot of stupid moves as we know. They had one if not the first full frame Dslr. They introduced the 14N way before it was ready. It was plagued with color shifts across the frame especially with wides. Kodak repeatedly said they had the fix but nothing happened. Then Kodak introduced a new version stating everything was fixed. Those that bought into the new model had exactly the same problems. Kodak finally abandon their digital pro market customers leaving them stuck with junk that was basically unusable. Tha was the nail in the coffin for the pro digital market.
Nonetheless it appears that Kodak has survived, other firms in Europe are getting back in with smaller scale production facilities, film use is increasing again, photographers are realising that colour film is every bit as rewarding as black and white, enthusiasm for digital is fading, especially in the amateur (so-called "enthusiast") market segment, and even Hollywood has gotten into the act.

There are always modernisers who seem to get a thrill in closing down old ways and old technics/technologies. The people in that camp, and were many a few years ago on the digital camera fora, almost had it their way. The extinction of film was almost there. It was a close call-- even a significant pause in production would have meant the loss of the necessary knowledge base. The momentum for shutting it all down was there. Somehow that just didn't happen. It would make an interesting story line for a book.
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Old 10-04-2017   #59
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Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
Hers a little article that might give insight into why pricing went up and what happened to Kodak. It's a look from inside Kodak.

https://www.google.com/amp/sloanrevi...s-decline/amp/
Someone noted that article is behind a paywall.

Do a Google search "Willy Shih real lesson kodak" and click the first item, and you can read the article. Interesting business strategy article.
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Old 10-04-2017   #60
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Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Someone noted that article is behind a paywall.

Do a Google search "Willy Shih real lesson kodak" and click the first item, and you can read the article. Interesting business strategy article.
Funny thing, it came up as a free article when I found it this morning.
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Old 10-04-2017   #61
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Originally Posted by x-ray View Post

Kodak made a lot of stupid moves as we know. They had one if not the first full frame Dslr. They introduced the 14N way before it was ready. It was plagued with color shifts across the frame especially with wides. Kodak repeatedly said they had the fix but nothing happened. Then Kodak introduced a new version stating everything was fixed. Those that bought into the new model had exactly the same problems. Kodak finally abandon their digital pro market customers leaving them stuck with junk that was basically unusable. Tha was the nail in the coffin for the pro digital market.
I owned 2 of those Kodak cameras. A 14n and a 14nx (SLRn) with $1500 sensor upgrade. About $12-14k plus spent, with no support from their tech staff. My last call to the tech support people with an issue (2005?) was answered with: we can't figure out how to do that. There must be a menu error. If you figure it out, would you call us back and tell us how you did it?

After that conversation, I was forwarded to the women who oversaw both film and digital divisions. During our conversation I mentioned that I missed Plus-X after having used it for many years, and bought a big batch of FP-4. She went ballistic, telling me that people were being laid off, etc. and where was my loyalty? I told her I had been on the Kodak site and Plus-X in 135 was no longer listed. I figured since so many Kodak products had been discontinued that, 135 stock was no longer made. She looked at the web site and fumed.. then without saying a word transferred me to another person. The guy says hello, I reply, hello.. who's this. I'm the Kodak Web Master. I explained the previous conversation. He checked the site and said, oh, you're right.. Then, he says, got any other suggestions. I told him since the black and white portion of the film page was illustrated with color photographs, he might think about using some black and white photos in stead .. Oh, a great idea.

F*** Kodak. They left me high and dry with $12000 in useless hardware and didn't give a s***.

I feel bad for the good employees who lost their jobs because of incompetent management buffoons.

Edit: Remember the "Magenta Dot" they claimed didn't exist until plagued with published examples? Kodak had a habit of stonewalling tech problems.
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Old 10-04-2017   #62
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Where did you get that figure from?
It's a conjecture from the fact that the industry is utterly awash in film production capacity. One estimate from the Rochester plant is that it could supply the world's demand x8 alone, no other plants necessary worldwide.

So the problem still is not added demand; it's far too little demand compared to supply. Prices are likely to continue rising as there is no effective competition.
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Old 10-04-2017   #63
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I owned 2 of those Kodak cameras. A 14n and a 14nx (SLRn) with $1500 sensor upgrade. About $12-14k plus spent, with no support from their tech staff.

F*** Kodak. They left me high and dry with $12000 in useless hardware and didn't give a s***.
This is exactly what they did to everyone that bought these cameras. Lie after lie about fixes that never came and then left them high and dry with no support. Unlike the 14 series their pro back for MF was good but the 14 series problems liked the trust of their customers which pretty much killed their pro digital hopes.

I almost bought one but as soon as I tried one out I canceled my order and bought 2 Canon 1Ds bodies.

I think today most of the problems could be corrected in software like Light Room and Capture. Corner fix might be of some help. When I was using a Hasselblad CFV39 back with some wides I had to do a correction shot at the working aperture to create a correction profile in Light Room. This is what the Kodak cameras needed to fix files. The problem was similar to what you see on the M9 Leica with aftermarket brands of wide angles.

It would be interesting to take one of those today and see what would happen processing raw files in LR with a correction profile.
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Old 10-04-2017   #64
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This is exactly what they did to everyone that bought these cameras. Lie after lie about fixes that never came and then left them high and dry with no support. Unlike the 14 series their pro back for MF was good but the 14 series problems liked the trust of their customers which pretty much killed their pro digital hopes.

I almost bought one but as soon as I tried one out I canceled my order and bought 2 Canon 1Ds bodies.

I think today most of the problems could be corrected in software like Light Room and Capture. Corner fix might be of some help. When I was using a Hasselblad CFV39 back with some wides I had to do a correction shot at the working aperture to create a correction profile in Light Room. This is what the Kodak cameras needed to fix files. The problem was similar to what you see on the M9 Leica with aftermarket brands of wide angles.

It would be interesting to take one of those today and see what would happen processing raw files in LR with a correction profile.
A good friend and lab owner, was almost put out of business because of a series of batches of bad inter-negative film. The Kodak TSR, Jerry Dean, kept telling him it was because he wasn't using a Kodak print processor .. total stonewall BS. All the labs in town had the same trouble. You couldn't get a neutral gray with the stock. So, I got an old friend, who is a well known photo chemist, to help. My lab friend, at his whit's end, sued Kodak. My chemist friend wrote a letter outlining the problem and citing the instructions in the film documentation. The word was that the chemists in Rochester saw my chemists friend's name on the suit and rolled over. They had been in court with him in the past, when he worked for Hunt Chemical.

My lab owner friend called and said, that Dean, the TSR, had just visited and asked, "How much?".

Screw Kodak.
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Old 10-04-2017   #65
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A good friend and lab owner, was almost put out of business because of a series of batches of bad inter-negative film. The Kodak TSR, Jerry Dean, kept telling him it was because he wasn't using a Kodak print processor .. total stonewall BS. All the labs in town had the same trouble. You couldn't get a neutral gray with the stock. So, I got an old friend, who is a well known photo chemist, to help. My lab friend, at his whit's end, sued Kodak. My chemist friend wrote a letter outlining the problem and citing the instructions in the film documentation. The word was that the chemists in Rochester saw my chemists friend's name on the suit and rolled over. They had been in court with him in the past, when he worked for Hunt Chemical.

My lab owner friend called and said, that Dean, the TSR, had just visited and asked, "How much?".

Screw Kodak.
I only had a couple of problems over the years. I bought E6 sheet film by the case when catalog season came around. This was in the day when I shot 11x14 for double page spreads and 8x10 for single. We shot everything to the same scale by putting acetates on the ground glass specing type position and image size. These were all to the same scale and were generated by our art department. The reason was for ganging the separations to save money.

Anyway I ordered a case of 4x5 EPP, 50 sheets of 11x14 EPP and a case of 8x10 EPP. A case was 250 sheets which would get me through the job which was slated to start in a few days. It would allow me time to test each batch which I always did.

I shot a couple of sheets of each size and ran them in our Colenta processor. The 4x5 and 11x14 looked on the money but the 8x10 had a serious problem. We had a great TSR who came out immediately. He called Rochester to find the batch had accidentally gotten out to dealers and had not gone through the yellow coating step. The emulsion was only magenta and cyan.

Our rep took that batch and had another "different" batch fedexed to us overnight. When I received it I checked the emulsion number to find it was from the same batch. We got it corrected on the next try.

I've seen 120 VPL spoiled on VPS backing paper and thats about all the issues I can think of right now. That's pretty good considering all the film I shot.

Kodak screwed up in my favor once. When the ready load packets came out my TSR came to my studio to show how they worked. He said he'd loan me a holder and comp me a box to try. Either he or Kodak screwed up the order and sent me a case. I think it was 12 boxes of 10 double packs each. I contacted him and he said not to worry, just keep it. One bit of feedback I was able to provide, our summers are very humid here and in dry conditions the packs worked perfectly but humid conditions the pack covers woukdntvrelease from the licking clip. On humid days they were useless. I wound up removing all the sheets and used them in regular 4x5 holders. Still a great bonus.

All but one of our TSR's were greT, joe Lowery, Jeff McLeod and Jim Much. Then we got another who I won't name who was a bad joke.

I also had regular visits from my Fuji Rep Bill Prudner. He was another fantastic guy with great info and every solution to your problems at his finger tips. He and the Kodak guys also had lots of great goodies they'd leave to try. Every visit was like Christmas. The best part though was the excellent support for the industry.
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Old 10-04-2017   #66
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I only had a couple of problems over the years. I bought E6 sheet film by the case when catalog season came around. This was in the day when I shot 11x14 for double page spreads and 8x10 for single. We shot everything to the same scale by putting acetates on the ground glass specing type position and image size. These were all to the same scale and were generated by our art department. The reason was for ganging the separations to save money.

Anyway I ordered a case of 4x5 EPP, 50 sheets of 11x14 EPP and a case of 8x10 EPP. A case was 250 sheets which would get me through the job which was slated to start in a few days. It would allow me time to test each batch which I always did.

I shot a couple of sheets of each size and ran them in our Colenta processor. The 4x5 and 11x14 looked on the money but the 8x10 had a serious problem. We had a great TSR who came out immediately. He called Rochester to find the batch had accidentally gotten out to dealers and had not gone through the yellow coating step. The emulsion was only magenta and cyan.

Our rep took that batch and had another "different" batch fedexed to us overnight. When I received it I checked the emulsion number to find it was from the same batch. We got it corrected on the next try.

I've seen 120 VPL spoiled on VPS backing paper and thats about all the issues I can think of right now. That's pretty good considering all the film I shot.

Kodak screwed up in my favor once. When the ready load packets came out my TSR came to my studio to show how they worked. He said he'd loan me a holder and comp me a box to try. Either he or Kodak screwed up the order and sent me a case. I think it was 12 boxes of 10 double packs each. I contacted him and he said not to worry, just keep it. One bit of feedback I was able to provide, our summers are very humid here and in dry conditions the packs worked perfectly but humid conditions the pack covers woukdntvrelease from the licking clip. On humid days they were useless. I wound up removing all the sheets and used them in regular 4x5 holders. Still a great bonus.

All but one of our TSR's were greT, joe Lowery, Jeff McLeod and Jim Much. Then we got another who I won't name who was a bad joke.

I also had regular visits from my Fuji Rep Bill Prudner. He was another fantastic guy with great info and every solution to your problems at his finger tips. He and the Kodak guys also had lots of great goodies they'd leave to try. Every visit was like Christmas. The best part though was the excellent support for the industry.
That was the second time I did battle with Kodak. I won both times. But, I was foolish enough to buy two of those cameras. I had Nikon lenses and the Nikon mount came out first. My clients were all about going digital asap', so, I went with it. My poor neighbor had one with a really bad magenta dot problem. I don't think it was ever solved. He donated to Kodak's funeral too.
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Old 10-05-2017   #67
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There is still no substitute for film.
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Old 10-05-2017   #68
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Because there hasn't been an analog resurgence.
I see evidence all around me of much more film interest than when I began using film 6 or so years ago: at the tech startup I work at I have two colleagues who've recently started using film; at my kids' school there are parents who've switched (and unfortunately started badgering me with questions about scanners and labs, and so on). One of those dads told me about his friend whose daughter goes to the same gym class as my daughter who's recently bought a film Leica.
Another dad whose kids used to go to the same nursery as my kids has become a fanatical film user - even developing his own film. I met him in the crush of the latest film-camera 'yard sale' I was at in March - there were thousands of people at that event, mostly younger people.
I mentor at one of Sweden's leading tech schools, and I'm amazed at how many students are using film cameras. None of them are using DSLRs (it's either iPhone or film).
When I go to the lab with my film these days, I almost always have to stand in line. That never used to happen 5 years ago.
After my vacation I got my films developed for a lower price, in return for waiting longer than a week - because the workload was just too much for the lab at the time.
New films being released almost all the time at the moment. Looking forward to Ektachrome soon.
Also looking forward to getting my Kickstarter LabBox - have to wait a bit longer, because of delays due to the overwhelming over-subscription.
Been trying to get hold of a couple film cameras that I chose not to buy 3 or 4 years back - but since then the price has spiraled crazily upwards.

Anyways, carry on thinking "there hasn't been an analog resurgence" if the negativity makes you feel better.
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Old 10-05-2017   #69
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[QUOTE This is what the Kodak cameras needed to fix files. The problem was similar to what you see on the M9 Leica with aftermarket brands of wide angles.

It would be interesting to take one of those today and see what would happen processing raw files in LR with a correction profile.[/quote]


Kodak SLR pro and 645 digital back are unique in their color rendering, there is a thread on Russian photography forum where users share their images, I'm quite amazed with what this digital dinosaur can achieve in bright light. There is a custom firmware you can install too. Most people use original Kodak Photodesk editing software and results are very pleasing to the eye, others claim RPP software is the best for it and for KAF sensor in general. Corner fix can fix color shifts quickly (aka Italian Flag effect)
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Old 10-05-2017   #70
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Film sales will never return to where it was in the 90's. As much as I'd like to go back to film for my clients they's never pay the price of film and processing. Budgets are way too tight these days. They days of extravagant budgets has long gone. In the 90's my film lab bills for E6 exceeded $100,000 per year not counting film.

Film, processing costs and time to get film back from the lab are big factors now. The old timers that were art directors then are retired now and the kids that have come in don't have a clue about using film. Schools don't teach this. If we did shoot film, most of the labs are gone. There were 3 within 10 minutes of my studio in the 90's. Now there's one that runs every month or so and the quality is terrible. My favorite lab of all, E6 of Atlanta, closed a couple of years ago.

Ok, lets assume we could get processing in a timely manner. There are no pre press houses now that have scanners or at least very few. There's one in my area that has an antiquated but excellent scanner. There were several very high quality prepress houses within 10 minutes of my studio too. All of them are gone along with their drum scanners. I can think of 4 major prepress houses that did work nationally that have closed around my studio.

Ok, lets assume someone is interested in opening a prepress house. There are lots of drum scanners on the used market. The catch here is these are ancient and run on obsolete operating systems like OS9. No pats are available even if you could find a tech to work on them. Aztec is the only drum scanner company left and the prices start at ~$70,000. The cost of starting such a company is tremendous and the people to run the equipment are scarce now.

Sorry, Film isn't coming back anywhere near the level it once existed. The amateur market isn't even drop in the bucket. Now hopefully though the young guys and gals getting into film will stay interested, if not the future of film could be in jeopardy.
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Old 10-05-2017   #71
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This discussion is very similar to discussions guitar builders have about the future availability of suitable guitar woods, and I think it is almost an "apples to apples" comparison.
One elder sage said about the future: "I think there will always be enough wood for someone to build one more guitar".
Seeing the mechanical stamina of good old film cameras, but realizing that nothing lasts forever, lends me to the paraphrase "I think there will always be enough film for someone to shoot one more roll".
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Old 10-05-2017   #72
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David: Your analogy works. 'Cause then you go to some of the rare wood dealers and see a plethora of fine tone woods! and wonder about their true scarcity (though habitat loss is real and the ultimate "cost"). Or maybe you just look around a typical guitar maker's shop and see all the beautiful wood he's collected to let dry, age, and just be available when needed. And picking out wood for a new guitar back, neck, and sides is like choosing the camera, lens and film to use for the day.
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Old 10-05-2017   #73
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But haven't you heard of carbon fiber & composite material acoustic guitars? Almost exactly the analog to digital argument that "digital doesn't have the look of film" & "Bring back Kodachrome!" = "composite materials don't have the soul of a real wood guitar"
We guitar builders don't, however, have to wait for a new coating machine to be developed and come on line, we just have to wait for a new tree to be found in the forest that is suitable by our standards and that guitar players will accept the wood from, while moaning about how it doesn't have the same "soul" as Brazilian Rosewood or some other long-gone wood.
By the way, I have enough Brazilian Rosewood for "two more guitars" and know many others like me.

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Except that guitar woods were not supplanted by another product. I think it more closely resembles the scenario of vinyl records. They actually are seeing a "resurgence." And new turntables are now readily available again.

I think film will truly be said to be back when OEMs start offering new cameras.

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Old 10-05-2017   #74
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Here is a plot I found on the Internet. Tri-X went up 500% over the past 6 years!

G,

Around 5-6 years ago I was buying Arista Premium (rebranded Tri-X) from Freestyle for $2.89 a roll. I bought hundreds of rolls and still have about a dozen rolls from that era.

Hard to believe those extreme low prices on the graph.

Freestyle also sold close dated Acros for $1.89 a roll back then as Legacy Pro. I loaded up the truck with that film also and still have a small stockpile.

If I found Tri-X cheaper I would of bulked up.

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Old 10-05-2017   #75
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But haven't you heard of carbon fiber & composite material acoustic guitars? Almost exactly the analog to digital argument that "digital doesn't have the look of film" & "Bring back Kodachrome!" = "composite materials don't have the soul of a real wood guitar"
We guitar builders don't, however, have to wait for a new coating machine to be developed and come on line, we just have to wait for a new tree to be found in the forest that is suitable by our standards and that guitar players will accept the wood from, while moaning about how it doesn't have the same "soul" as Brazilian Rosewood or some other long-gone wood.
By the way, I have enough Brazilian Rosewood for "two more guitars" and know many others like me.
Dave,

I have a friend who is an archtop builder. He has a pretty good stockpile of wood and seems to get to cherry pick and is one of the first to be called when good old growth wood comes in.

An example is European Spruce that is basically for a Cello top because my friend Cris is building me an 18 inch wide archtop and does not want to have "wings" like on some DeAquisto's. Took Cris a few years, but he found even found a figured top wide enough that has mucho bear claw.

Same happened with the wood required for the back. Understand that this will be a "blonde" archtop.

Know that somehow Cris got hold of some of DeAquisto's wood for neck blanks, and my guitar will be built from one of those rare remaining blanks.

What is really treasure here is the old growth wood. CITES now makes those last pieces of Brazilian you have a precious commodity. Cris said he had to document the providence of his stockpile of wood. Be aware of that headache.

Certainly wood is a commodity that can be hoarded, but film cannot be preserved so easily. Age does not add to its premium.

Thankfully I own a Santa Cruz OM that features old growth Brazilian that is well spydered with a Red Spruce top just like the original 1930's Martins.

Stockpiling film when it is cheap and readily available has worked for me, but it does seem like the days of being able to stockpile are over.

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Old 10-05-2017   #76
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Sorry, Film isn't coming back anywhere near the level it once existed. The amateur market isn't even drop in the bucket.
Of course film isn't coming back anywhere near it used to be in terms of popularity and sales, nobody would expect that.

But your posts seem to imply that the highest film sales were in the professional market. I think compared to the millions of tourists around the world in the pre-digital era, the professional market was a drop in the bucket -- not the other way round.
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Old 10-05-2017   #77
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If I found Tri-X cheaper I would of bulked up
As many have pointed out here, film prices can only go up. Every day is a good day to stock up now!
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Old 10-05-2017   #78
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And if you make color images like me, add another $12 a roll for processing and you're talking a serious chunk of dough over the course of a year. When I got out of film about 10 years ago, I calculated that I was spending roughly $2000 a year on film and processing... for using 2 rolls a week. And that doesn't include the additional costs of printing. Now I spend about $800 a year on ink.
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Old 10-05-2017   #79
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And if you make color images like me, add another $12 a roll for processing and you're talking a serious chunk of dough over the course of a year. When I got out of film about 10 years ago, I calculated that I was spending roughly $2000 a year on film and processing... for using 2 rolls a week. And that doesn't include the additional costs of printing. Now I spend about $800 a year on ink.
Jamie,

Granted that I stockpile to eventually save money by exploiting sales and buying in bulk, but I have spent $10K in a year for paper and ink to print digitally.

For me neither analog or digital is inexpensive. Know that I'm a B&W shooter to save on costs, and I use Piezography to print B&W. Also I tend to print large.

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Old 10-05-2017   #80
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I only had a couple of problems over the years. I bought E6 sheet film by the case when catalog season came around. This was in the day when I shot 11x14 for double page spreads and 8x10 for single. We shot everything to the same scale by putting acetates on the ground glass specing type position and image size. These were all to the same scale and were generated by our art department. The reason was for ganging the separations to save money.

Anyway I ordered a case of 4x5 EPP, 50 sheets of 11x14 EPP and a case of 8x10 EPP. A case was 250 sheets which would get me through the job which was slated to start in a few days. It would allow me time to test each batch which I always did.

I shot a couple of sheets of each size and ran them in our Colenta processor. The 4x5 and 11x14 looked on the money but the 8x10 had a serious problem. We had a great TSR who came out immediately. He called Rochester to find the batch had accidentally gotten out to dealers and had not gone through the yellow coating step. The emulsion was only magenta and cyan.

Our rep took that batch and had another "different" batch fedexed to us overnight. When I received it I checked the emulsion number to find it was from the same batch. We got it corrected on the next try.

I've seen 120 VPL spoiled on VPS backing paper and thats about all the issues I can think of right now. That's pretty good considering all the film I shot.

Kodak screwed up in my favor once. When the ready load packets came out my TSR came to my studio to show how they worked. He said he'd loan me a holder and comp me a box to try. Either he or Kodak screwed up the order and sent me a case. I think it was 12 boxes of 10 double packs each. I contacted him and he said not to worry, just keep it. One bit of feedback I was able to provide, our summers are very humid here and in dry conditions the packs worked perfectly but humid conditions the pack covers woukdntvrelease from the licking clip. On humid days they were useless. I wound up removing all the sheets and used them in regular 4x5 holders. Still a great bonus.

All but one of our TSR's were greT, joe Lowery, Jeff McLeod and Jim Much. Then we got another who I won't name who was a bad joke.

I also had regular visits from my Fuji Rep Bill Prudner. He was another fantastic guy with great info and every solution to your problems at his finger tips. He and the Kodak guys also had lots of great goodies they'd leave to try. Every visit was like Christmas. The best part though was the excellent support for the industry.
Just remembered the bad Kodachrome and maybe Ektachrome in the 70s? There was a serious color shift in all of the stuff coming out of Rochester's coating tunnels as of a specific date. The problem was so wide spread that Kodak couldn't BS their way through it. It took a long time to fix and trace the problem. The problem was unique in that it was attributed to their source of cow's hooves, obtained from one big ranch in Ireland (?). The rancher had changed the brand of clover fed the cows, and this caused the color shift. The hooves are used to make the gelatin used in the film base.
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