Leica M2 + LTM lens
Old 12-10-2018   #1
xasthur
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Leica M2 + LTM lens

Hello everyone!

So I finally got my dream camera the M2 but per my luck with things it's got problems which I was not aware of.

Please note that I bought this camera with mindset of it was working perfectly because the owner said it was CLA'd 3 months prior.

The main maybe issue/question is I have a after market adapter that I'm using for it with my 35mm 3.5 Elmar LTM lens. Reason is I got it for free so why not give it a go. The weird thing seems to be when I focus the lens to about 1,75 meters the rangefinder doesn't seem to focus any closer. It's like a dead zone with anything under 1,75 meters. Is this normal? with the LTM lens? Could it be the adapter? Below I have a picture of the adapter. I have pictures of the adapter below.

Also, a bigger problem appears when I use a shutter speed above 1/125 of a second. Basically what happens on the shutter speeds is what I believe is "capping" when I release the shutter there's no exposure through the curtains and I end up with black images which leaves me to believe the curtains aren't adjusted correctly and the timing is off. Does that make sense to anyone? Also note that all the slower speeds are perfectly fine.

With that being said I do have the proper tools to take the bottom plate off and to make curtain adjustments if anyone has advice or have done this themselves. I'm fairly confident in my fixing abilities as I've been buying broken cameras and fixing them for over a year now.

Thanks!

https://i.imgur.com/uktFqq8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YlfKKvO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7wSmT8D.jpg
https://imgur.com/pdZJyL5
https://imgur.com/XgGEhWP
https://imgur.com/41llHlU
https://imgur.com/WU78npW
https://imgur.com/AuH4tYt
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Old 12-10-2018   #2
xasthur
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Also I took the bottom plate off to have a look since that wouldn't harm anything and there was a random small spring just sitting under the plate.. The camera still works the same way so I definitely didn't cause the random spring to come loose where ever it came from.

Anyways I could use a little sowing machine oil to lubricate the shutter gears yeah? I ask this because the gears look dry and I see a tiny bit of old lube.
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Old 12-10-2018   #3
Beemermark
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Have you shot a roll of film through it?
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Old 12-10-2018   #4
Sarcophilus Harrisii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
Hello everyone!

So I finally got my dream camera the M2 but per my luck with things it's got problems which I was not aware of.

Please note that I bought this camera with mindset of it was working perfectly because the owner said it was CLA'd 3 months prior.

The main maybe issue/question is I have a after market adapter that I'm using for it with my 35mm 3.5 Elmar LTM lens. Reason is I got it for free so why not give it a go. The weird thing seems to be when I focus the lens to about 1,75 meters the rangefinder doesn't seem to focus any closer. It's like a dead zone with anything under 1,75 meters. Is this normal? with the LTM lens? Could it be the adapter? Below I have a picture of the adapter. I have pictures of the adapter below.

Also, a bigger problem appears when I use a shutter speed above 1/125 of a second. Basically what happens on the shutter speeds is what I believe is "capping" when I release the shutter there's no exposure through the curtains and I end up with black images which leaves me to believe the curtains aren't adjusted correctly and the timing is off. Does that make sense to anyone? Also note that all the slower speeds are perfectly fine.

With that being said I do have the proper tools to take the bottom plate off and to make curtain adjustments if anyone has advice or have done this themselves. I'm fairly confident in my fixing abilities as I've been buying broken cameras and fixing them for over a year now.

Thanks!

https://i.imgur.com/uktFqq8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YlfKKvO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7wSmT8D.jpg
https://imgur.com/pdZJyL5
https://imgur.com/XgGEhWP
https://imgur.com/41llHlU
https://imgur.com/WU78npW
https://imgur.com/AuH4tYt
A focal plane shutter that's tapering slightly at 1/1000 and perhaps 1/500 may be a candidate for a simple fine tuning of curtain spring tension. If you're getting no exposure at all down to 1/125 it's more than that and will need at a minimum cleaning and adjustment of the mechanism, possibly other items also.

Sewing machine oil tends to run a lot, the viscosity may not be awful but ability to remain where applied and to not contaminate internal components is rather ordinary, I wouldn't expect any short cuts with this shutter, it will need a proper service and adjustment by someone who understands what ails it.
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Old 12-10-2018   #5
xasthur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemermark View Post
Have you shot a roll of film through it?
Yes, 2 rolls. first one came out fine because it was a cloudy day where I live and I was shooting at 1/125 of a second. When the sun came out briefly is when I bumped it up to 1/250 1/500 and 1/1000 which those frames are black. Later in the day when I had my negatives back is when I checked all of the speeds and noticed 1/250 1/500 1/1000 of a second showed no light through curtains when fired.
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Old 12-10-2018   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii View Post
A focal plane shutter that's tapering slightly at 1/1000 and perhaps 1/500 may be a candidate for a simple fine tuning of curtain spring tension. If you're getting no exposure at all down to 1/125 it's more than that and will need at a minimum cleaning and adjustment of the mechanism, possibly other items also.

Sewing machine oil tends to run a lot, the viscosity may not be awful but ability to remain where applied and to not contaminate internal components is rather ordinary, I wouldn't expect any short cuts with this shutter, it will need a proper service and adjustment by someone who understands what ails it.
Is there a recommended lubricant used which I have give a go before dishing out more money sending it somewhere?
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Old 12-10-2018   #7
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The no-name ltm adapters can vary in quality, the one that I once had caused me a bunch of problems. I prefer the original Leica or the Voigtländer ones.

As for the shutter, I would try to get a partial refund since it is not as advertised. I would send it off for another round of cleaning. Unless you love to tinker, have time on your hands and get the right tools and lubricants.
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Old 12-10-2018   #8
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#1 You were sold something that isn't what it was presented to be. A recently CLAd M2 should not have any shutter issues. If I were you, I would return it for a refund. Failing that, try to get a partial refund to cover having it serviced by a professional.

#2 LTM lenses do not focus as close as M lenses. That is normal due to the differing designs of the mounts.
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Old 12-10-2018   #9
Sumarongi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
Please note that I bought this camera with mindset of it was working perfectly because the owner said it was CLA'd 3 months prior.
Then apparently the previous owner was lying, or the CLA guys were incompetent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
Is there a recommended lubricant used which I have give a go before dishing out more money sending it somewhere?
Send it back to the seller, I recommend.
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Old 12-10-2018   #10
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What a shame this is, I bought it at a camera show here in LA. Luckily I have the contact of the seller. He gave me the number and the name of the shop who did the CLA for it so I will call them tomorrow. If they offer to go over it again for free then I will do that.

If not I will tell the seller to give me a refund or give me the money back for the CLA if the store wants to charge me. We'll see what happens. This stinks
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Old 12-10-2018   #11
Sarcophilus Harrisii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
Is there a recommended lubricant used which I have give a go before dishing out more money sending it somewhere?
Sure, there are a few very good options. But I'm not going to pass on any information about these to you. Why would I? YOU ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME. It's not as simple as adding some oil to the mechanism. Now go and read my post again, properly, this time. We're done.
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Old 12-10-2018   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcophilus Harrisii View Post
Sure, there are a few very good options. But I'm not going to pass on any information about these to you. Why would I? YOU ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME. It's not as simple as adding some oil to the mechanism. Now go and read my post again, properly, this time. We're done.
hehe fair enough, I appreciate you saving me from further pain.
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Old 12-10-2018   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
What a shame this is, I bought it at a camera show here in LA. Luckily I have the contact of the seller. He gave me the number and the name of the shop who did the CLA for it so I will call them tomorrow. If they offer to go over it again for free then I will do that.

If not I will tell the seller to give me a refund or give me the money back for the CLA if the store wants to charge me. We'll see what happens. This stinks
Well, you're hoping that their obviously cr*ppy CLA will be better the second time?
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Old 12-11-2018   #14
David Hughes
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Hi,

About that adapter, the flange should be 1mm thick and I hope that doesn't add to your worries.

And the seller my have been the first one that was conned about the CLA.

Regards, David
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Old 12-11-2018   #15
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About the shutter.
Send the M2 back while you still can. Buy in person if possible next time after learning about what to look for when buying a RF camera. Avoid buying M bodies online unless you're reasonably sure about the source (this forum is a good place for that) or you're 100% sure that you can send it back in case it's not as described. If you can't send it back I can see a CLA in your near future.

About the focusing issue.
Provided you've got the right adapter and the lens has no issues, your Summaron 3.5 should focus down to 1 meter. While quality of LTM adapters can vary, I've never heard of a LTM adapter so bad that it can't focus down to 1 meter. Something is really wrong either with the lens or with the RF.

Good luck, sounds like you'll need some!
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Old 12-11-2018   #16
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I did buy it in person, i checked all the lower speeds but not the high ones because those are usually okay. My mistake obviously and will from now on check every single thing.

I have a old Elmar LTM, not a Summaron. Also I will say that when i put on a new lens which the seller let me try on so i could check the rf patch it seemed to focus fine so im assuming it's either the lens being old or the adapter. I have nothing which can measure of thickness of it.

So tomorrow I'm going to ask for my money back and then hopefully find another one which works properly. I just figured since he said it was CLA'd i was good to go.

It's very true that he might not of known the problems existed as he is a well known camera vender at the monthly camera show that we have here in CA. So I've seen and talked to this man a few times but never bought anything from him until now. We will see tomorrow and I will post back here with what happens.
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Old 12-11-2018   #17
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Gotcha, sorry for the Elmar/Summaron mistake but regardless, the old Elmar has the same minimum focus distance.
In all honesty I don't believe the "recent CLA" fairy tale anymore unless a receipt is made available...I don't know this seller but agree with others here that no M body recently CLA'd should manifest these issues. Hope you can get your money back!
All the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
I did buy it in person, i checked all the lower speeds but not the high ones because those are usually okay. My mistake obviously and will from now on check every single thing.

I have a old Elmar LTM, not a Summaron. Also I will say that when i put on a new lens which the seller let me try on so i could check the rf patch it seemed to focus fine so im assuming it's either the lens being old or the adapter. I have nothing which can measure of thickness of it.

So tomorrow I'm going to ask for my money back and then hopefully find another one which works properly. I just figured since he said it was CLA'd i was good to go.

It's very true that he might not of known the problems existed as he is a well known camera vender at the monthly camera show that we have here in CA. So I've seen and talked to this man a few times but never bought anything from him until now. We will see tomorrow and I will post back here with what happens.
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Old 12-11-2018   #18
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Is the lens at the infinity position in this photo? If so, it doesn't look like the lens is fully screwed in to the adapter. That would certainly mess up the minimum focus distance indicated by the rangefinder.
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Old 12-11-2018   #19
Erik van Straten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
I did buy it in person, i checked all the lower speeds but not the high ones because those are usually okay.
No, on old M cameras usually the high speeds are problematic.

The slow speeds are totally unimportant as they are never used.

Erik.
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Old 12-11-2018   #20
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Yes that's at infinity. I made a post a while ago about M2 and the adapters for LTM lenses and in that post pictures were provided. Now comparing the images in that post from Erik Van Straten and David Hughes it appears that it's most likely my adapter. I have a link to their images below.

If you compare the theirs to mine I can clearly see a difference where the infinity stop screw sits. The thing with my adapter is I can't screw it on there any further so it's likely just a crap adapter.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Leica-Scr...ter%203-XL.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1927/4...6baf1f32_z.jpg

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Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Is the lens at the infinity position in this photo? If so, it doesn't look like the lens is fully screwed in to the adapter. That would certainly mess up the minimum focus distance indicated by the rangefinder.
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Old 12-11-2018   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
It's very true that he might not of known the problems existed as he is a well known camera vender at the monthly camera show that we have here in CA. So I've seen and talked to this man a few times but never bought anything from him until now. We will see tomorrow and I will post back here with what happens.
@Well known: doesn't necessarily mean honest, does it?
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Old 12-11-2018   #22
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Well known would give money back. He sold non working camera as after CLA.
As for lens. Try another lens. Or try it on another camera.
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Old 12-11-2018   #23
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I had a cheap LTM adapter where they didnt mill out enough of the notch for the rangefinder cam to move all the way to the 1m position..

I had to grind the adapter for it to work properly.
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Old 12-11-2018   #24
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Originally Posted by rcubed View Post
I had a cheap LTM adapter where they didnt mill out enough of the notch for the rangefinder cam to move all the way to the 1m position..

I had to grind the adapter for it to work properly.
Kudos! -- if one has a fine diagnostic ability one can invent a simple yet excellent workaround!
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Old 12-11-2018   #25
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This not the best photograph I have taken but I hope it shows what's needed. All bits and pieces from Weztlar...



Regards, David
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Old 12-11-2018   #26
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Well, the seller will not give me my money back so I'm stuck with it. The seller said that he never guarantee it was working. He said he will give me the CLA receipt and also call the repair man and talk to him so he can make the proper adjustments. I called the original repairman and he told me that he doesn't remember working on a M2 for a while. Now "a while" could mean anything to anyone sigh. So I'm currently dealing with the seller who lied to me and sold me something that was broken and apparently a repair man that doesn't remember working on one recently.

So right now I currently have a camera I can only shoot at 1/125 of a second that I paid full price for.

The repair man seems like a genuine kinda guy and said if the guy doesn't give me my money back I can bring the camera to him and he will check it out for me since I'm getting screwed. BUT, if it was indeed him that originally CLA'd it then do I really want to take it back to him so he can "CLA" it again? I mean who know what happened before. Hell, it's already broken.

Now I know the path that I should take and that would be send it to YYE or someone else who is a known and respected Leica repair man/woman. This is a mess I wasn't expecting but knew could happen with these old cameras. It just sucks.
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Old 12-11-2018   #27
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Well, at least you'll know to never trust this seller again. Even if he didn't expressly guarantee it was working, he implied as much by saying it was recently serviced - dishonest and deceptive. Any reputable seller would take it back and refund your money. Look at it this way, after servicing you'll have a beautiful camera that should last a lifetime.
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Old 12-11-2018   #28
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Because you are in LA, I would have Steve's Camera Repair in Culver City look at it rather than sending it off to YYE.
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Old 12-11-2018   #29
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Ohh, thanks for the recommendation on Steve's camera repair. Also I asked for the receipt from the seller and he hasn't sent it yet and then continued to say that when he attempted to call the guy who CLA'd it he wouldn't pick up.. Said he will keep trying. I made a video below of my M2.

https://youtu.be/nt2_mDhiPXU
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Old 12-11-2018   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
So right now I currently have a camera I can only shoot at 1/125 of a second that I paid full price for.
How much exactly did you pay?
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Old 12-11-2018   #31
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Not to be a jerk here, Never take a sellers word on a camera and its history....Ever! Always plan on sending it in for a C.L.A. Should be the 1st thing you do before you even bother putting a roll of film in it...I recommend Youxon Ye for the work, he is honest, priced correct for the work he does, and I have always had a pretty fast turn around. That way when you get the camera back you know it should be good to go. Adapter wise, when I bought my M2 (my 1st M) all I had were Leitz screw mount lenses. I bought a cheap adapter...said it was American made rather than the cheap Chinese ones with known problems...well nope didn't even come close to going on the camera all the way...after that decided that it's a expensive camera (for me) but I'm already paid into ownership, why would I buy a cheap adapter? you will always be better off with a Leitz product than a aftermarket one. Keep a look out on eBay for a Leitz one make sure it has M2 and M3 stamped on it...they run about $75, but do come up cheaper...if you look at the camera as a lifelong companion...what you spend on quality is worth it
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Old 12-11-2018   #32
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How much exactly did you pay?
He wanted 800 for it but I talked him down to 750. Which isn't full price I know. When i typed that i was really frustrated. Now that i think about it about it 750 plus say 180 for yye to CLA isn't that bad i guess.
Just this whole experience really stresses me out.
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Old 12-11-2018   #33
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You are correct, I was just so excited because the M2 has been my dream camera for a long time and I finally was able to get one and I get this sour experience. But I'll eventually get it all fixed up and will have a interesting story on how I got my first M2. Heh

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Not to be a jerk here, Never take a sellers word on a camera and its history....Ever! Always plan on sending it in for a C.L.A. Should be the 1st thing you do before you even bother putting a roll of film in it...I recommend Youxon Ye for the work, he is honest, priced correct for the work he does, and I have always had a pretty fast turn around. That way when you get the camera back you know it should be good to go. Adapter wise, when I bought my M2 (my 1st M) all I had were Leitz screw mount lenses. I bought a cheap adapter...said it was American made rather than the cheap Chinese ones with known problems...well nope didn't even come close to going on the camera all the way...after that decided that it's a expensive camera (for me) but I'm already paid into ownership, why would I buy a cheap adapter? you will always be better off with a Leitz product than a aftermarket one. Keep a look out on eBay for a Leitz one make sure it has M2 and M3 stamped on it...they run about $75, but do come up cheaper...if you look at the camera as a lifelong companion...what you spend on quality is worth it
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Old 12-12-2018   #34
David Hughes
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Hi,

That's US $750 for a Leica M2?

That's a good price, sitting here in England I have been looking for something and the odd M2, M4 and M6 came up as part of the parade and so I looked at M2 prices as I wondered what mine would cost these days.

I would have to be lucky and find a dealer in the UK with one or else go to the other specialists in Germany or Austria. Either way I'd pay a lot more than you did; add in a repair or adjustment and I reckon you'd still come out OK. Plus you'd have the guarantee of the work and know everything was OK.

BTW, not all Chinese adapters are rubbish; there's good stuff out there and a lot of dealers in your/our countries stock it and sell it because they know it will work. Try looking at the ebay price for an adapter and you might find Leitz ones for about what my M2 cost me...

Regards, David

Last edited by David Hughes : 12-12-2018 at 00:21. Reason: Those extra CRLF's...
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Old 12-12-2018   #35
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That's US $750 for a Leica M2?
Yeah, when he said that I thought wow thats a really good deal. especially since it has no scratches and the viewfinder is crystal clear. besides the insides of course.
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Old 12-12-2018   #36
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Originally Posted by xasthur View Post
Yeah, when he said that I thought wow thats a really good deal. especially since it has no scratches and the viewfinder is crystal clear. besides the insides of course.
Lucky you then; just get it sorted out and you'll have a good looking camera "as new" or "minty" as they say when selling and it will have a guarantee from the repairer.

I can understand you being disappointed but you can come out of it as the winner with a nice camera for a bargain price. I often buy cheap good looking cameras knowing I'll have to pay to get them sorted out but looks are the one thing they can't repair.

I don't know what other think but a good M2 from a dealer is well over a thousand in this part of the world.

Regards, David
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Old 12-13-2018   #37
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I posted a video a few replies ago and in the video I was asking about the advance lever and how it has a kinda harsh movement right before it locks the shutter in place to then take a photo. Anyone with a M2 can confirm if that is normal or not?

https://youtu.be/nt2_mDhiPXU

Also I will be taking my camera to Steve's Camera repair here in LA to have him look at it. Hopefully he's not to expensive.
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Old 12-13-2018   #38
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When I got my M3 it needed work. I sent it to Sherry Krauter. These are more complicated than the earlier Barnack types. She was factory trained at Leica. My camera came back like new, she cleaned, repaired many items I didn't even notice. One example was the strap eyelets, which she informed me were loose and could cause the camera to drop off the strap. She repaired a big chip out of the leatherette covering. She got the self timer working, and all speeds in the shutter are spot on. The M types are like Swiss watches....I would use Sherry or Dag to CLA one. After several "Bubba" jobs with other repair techs, I've decided the best cameras go to the best repair persons. Otherwise you take some chances it won't be done right.
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Old 12-13-2018   #39
bhop73
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Bummer dude. I once bought a Nikon S2 with a similar problem. When I shot my test roll, the shutter was capping at 500 and 1000 shutter speeds. The seller listed it as "works well" but he didn't accept returns. I decided just to keep it and will probably eventually get it fixed..

Anyway, i've sent my M6 to Youxin a few times, 3 times for the same problem, which also happens to be shutter capping. It still does it a little.. based on my M6 experience, i'd probably see if Sherry or Dag can fix it if it were me, unless cost, and time is an issue, in which Youxin can probably handle it since the other two seem to take forever (based on what i've read in the forums) I'm impatient..
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Old 12-14-2018   #40
traveler_101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Lucky you then; just get it sorted out and you'll have a good looking camera "as new" or "minty" as they say when selling and it will have a guarantee from the repairer.

I can understand you being disappointed but you can come out of it as the winner with a nice camera for a bargain price. I often buy cheap good looking cameras knowing I'll have to pay to get them sorted out but looks are the one thing they can't repair.

I don't know what other think but a good M2 from a dealer is well over a thousand in this part of the world.

Regards, David
All this assumes that the problem can be fixed by a simple CLA. Is that necessarily true? Perhaps there is something more serious wrong.

As for price: prices are lower in the U.S. across the board so I don't think a comparison with the UK is necessarily relevant.

$750 for a camera that doesn't work is pretty high. The seller got away with robbery.

Everyone complains about Ebay, but if the transaction had been completed there the seller would have been forced to refund the buyer in whole or part - of course then prices are higher on Ebay now.

I hope Youxin can fix it without a major outlay.
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