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Old 03-24-2019   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutmeg View Post
at f2 and f4 the center is sharper with the Summicron but edges and corners are more blurry. And even very blurry at f2.
Putple fringing is important at f2 with the Ultron but not so at f4.

Stating the obvious... unless you used live view instead of the RF, sharpness results at wide apertures don’t mean a whole lot if a lens is giving you focus errors.
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Old 03-24-2019   #122
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For me, it is about the practicality (or not) of now getting an Ultron 35/2 when I have a Summicron 35/2 V1 and a Zeiss 35/2, plus a pre-asph Summilux 35/1.4 and Canon 35/2.
I am quite content with the 35mm lenses that I own.
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Old 03-24-2019   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzeeman View Post
im sure its not coincidence-i know to recognize crisis management when i see it...
Perhaps a teeny tiny bit paranoid?
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Old 03-24-2019   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Stating the obvious... unless you used live view instead of the RF, sharpness results at wide apertures don’t mean a whole lot if a lens is giving you focus errors.
landscape focused on infinity and the nearest thing you can see is about 25 meters away.
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Old 03-25-2019   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutmeg View Post
landscape focused on infinity and the nearest thing you can see is about 25 meters away.
RF focused or live focused??? What camera are you using???

I was (mostly) asking about the shots you took of the chair on your balcony at f2.

You really need to keep all variables to the minimum possible for comparison testing to mean anything worthwhile. Exact same framing being one of those variables.
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Old 03-25-2019   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickthetasmaniac View Post
Perhaps a teeny tiny bit paranoid?
just realistic.... i dont want to go ot again sorry.. if anyone need to discuss please pm me instead...

and about photos-did you use distance scale on lens to focus or rf?

you should use distance to check sharpness, and also rf to check if distance and rf are well adjusted.
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Old 03-25-2019   #127
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I used an M9 with the rf only for this.
Actually I don’t have so much time and material for better tests, sorry guys.
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Old 03-27-2019   #128
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and my theory is proven true-concerned owner suddenly dont have time to do real tests... forget about this guys - its obviously non existing issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nutmeg View Post
I used an M9 with the rf only for this.
Actually I don’t have so much time and material for better tests, sorry guys.
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Old 03-27-2019   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzeeman View Post
and my theory is proven true-concerned owner suddenly dont have time to do real tests... forget about this guys - its obviously non existing issue...
The lens is new, there is almost no review on the internet so I took from my time to post pictures on this forum. I could have done it on the Leica Forum where I am member too, but I thought the place was maybe not the most "partial".

I admit the pictures haven't been made as 100% seriously as some did but for me, they are solid enough for a light "overview".
It took quite some time to take the pictures, upload them and finally read all the comments..now I'm not sure to do it again.

BTW I'm the "Nutmeg" that used to be turntable afcionados on hi-fi forums and now sharpening geek on Kitchenknifeforums and usually give from my time for the community..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMXAG0B5mr8

Not that I don't like the community here on rangefinderforum but it seems I can't do "better" tests now. So maybe I'll post one portrait wide open but no comparison anymore.

Sorry for the off-topic!
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Old 03-27-2019   #130
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Thanks for these, nutmeg.

A few comments: the photo of the buildings, they might be too close to simply set the lens at infinity, at least wide open. But the tops of trees off in the distance also show some softness at f/4 vs. f/8...

If focus is indeed perfect, then based on my years using the 35/1.7-M version on the M240, the 1.7 would be the sharper lens across the frame.

I appreciate the f/8 samples though, because it shows the lens does sharpen up well. Until now, the only 35/2 Ultron examples I've seen have been shot on Sony cameras and similar photos to yours of the buildings has always shown slightly smeared edges even at f/5.6-8. It's nice to see in your examples that edges are sharp already at f/4. From those photos on a Sony camera, there was field curvature and overall focus improved by focusing midway between the center and edges of the frame. That said, the central 'weakness' of the Ultron in your examples, even at f/4, is slightly disappointing. It would be appreciated, by me at least, if you could re-test with the new lens to see if there is any difference. I'd be happy even with one building shot at f/4.

Lastly, I think your Summicron is decentered - the right side is quite soft even at f/8, especially compared to the left side. It's also probably front-focusing at the infinity hard stop given that the near building is in focus but things farther away in the distance are out of focus.

OT: I'm also a bit of a kitchen knife geek... love Japanese carbon blades.
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Old 03-27-2019   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutmeg View Post
It took quite some time to take the pictures, upload them and finally read all the comments..now I'm not sure to do it again.

Not that I don't like the community here on rangefinderforum but it seems I can't do "better" tests now. So maybe I'll post one portrait wide open but no comparison anymore.
We are a tough crowd at RFF Don’t let that deter you though, nutmeg. The more information in the public domain the better.

I think you experienced slight backfocus with your Ultron on your M9. This is a very common problem with a lot of lenses on digital Leica bodies. It might not be noticeable on film but digital makes these errors much easier to see. It could also be that your M9 is front focusing rather than the Ultron backfocusing. Or a combination of both. Your Summicron and Summilux may also be front focusing slightly and the M9 is covering up the error because it also front focuses. Lots of possibilities! That’s the reason why you’ll get better more meaningful test results by limiting the variables to the minimum. Take framing for example, if you focus on something at the center of the frame at F2, then tilt the camera a bit upwards or sideways, will what you focused on still be in focus? Depends on focus distance, field curvature of the lens etc. but possibly not. Or not in sharp focus. You can easily picture that by imagining the in focus area as a thick pane of glass (as thick as the DOF). Naturally if you tilt the glass, you change what’s in focus.

Anyway, I hope you have better luck with your second copy!
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Old 03-27-2019   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rscheffler View Post
Until now, the only 35/2 Ultron examples I've seen have been shot on Sony cameras
Errrrmmmm all mine are on film, including the shots at the start of this thread comparing the Summicron ASPH with the Ultron.
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Old 03-27-2019   #133
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Sorry, I meant digital images...

I appreciated your early samples too, Jon, for evaluating image rendering. However, being a strictly digital photographer and having only seen digital images with the new 35/2 on Sony cameras, I was uncertain how representative they were in respect to edge sharpness from Leica digital cameras.
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Old 03-27-2019   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rscheffler View Post
If focus is indeed perfect, then based on my years using the 35/1.7-M version on the M240, the 1.7 would be the sharper lens across the frame.

Well, it is obvious that this new lens is more an ergonomical than an optical improvement on the earlier f/1.7 35mm lenses from Voigtländer, both LTM and VM - exept for the stick. From those three lenses I prefer the LTM f/1.7 35mm. Really a joy to use.


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Old 03-28-2019   #135
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guys, thanks for your very detailed replies.
The new copy should arrive today or tomorrow and I don‘t promise to manage 100% correct tests ( this time, I wish I bought the M240 instead of the M9!) but I‘ll try ;-)
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Ultron 35mm f2 Aspherical vs Summicron 35mm f2 ASPH
Old 03-28-2019   #136
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Ultron 35mm f2 Aspherical vs Summicron 35mm f2 ASPH

Could not disagree more, Erik. I have never used the M-mount 35/1.7 so cannot comment about that lens, but the new Ultron is leaps and bounds better than the LTM Ultron 35/1.7 I owned many years ago.
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Old 03-28-2019   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
the new Ultron is leaps and bounds better than the LTM Ultron 35/1.7 I owned many years ago
Really? Hard to imagine, but I did not try the new lens myself.

Btw, the new lens is here in Amsterdam extremely expensive, over EUR 1.200,00 at Foto Den Boer. The VM f/1.7 (black or chrome) is only about EUR 800,00.

I'll check this again tomorrow.


I've checked this today, March 29 2019: There is an error, the price of the Utron at Foto Den Boer is EUR 745,00. They've put the wrong price on it - EUR 1.200,00 - in the display in the shop, no doubt by mistake.




Leica M2, LTM Voigtländer Ultron 35mm f/1.7 Aspherical at full aperture, Tmax400.

Erik.




I really love this rendering!
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Old 03-28-2019   #138
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Old 03-28-2019   #139
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UK dealers could also be an option. Robert White has it listed for about 700 Euro with VAT (not sure how Brexit affects things currently, or not).

Back in 2015 at initial release, the EU was surprisingly the best price for the VM f/1.7... back then the VAT inclusive price was about 650 Euro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nutmeg View Post
guys, thanks for your very detailed replies.
The new copy should arrive today or tomorrow and I don‘t promise to manage 100% correct tests ( this time, I wish I bought the M240 instead of the M9!) but I‘ll try ;-)
Thanks. I'll be happy with a repeat of the buildings photo(s) to see what, if anything is different with your second copy.
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Old 03-28-2019   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
Could not disagree more, Erik. I have never used the M-mount 35/1.7 so cannot comment about that lens, but the new Ultron is leaps and bounds better than the LTM Ultron 35/1.7 I owned many years ago.

I had both f1.7 Ultron (M/LTM) and the new VM Ultron f1.7 was better on a digital sensor from the image quality perspective.



I really like my f1.7 Ultron but missing a focus tab/stick a lot.
So for me the new f2 Ultron might be a solution, but till I never found any direct comparisons of image qualities ...
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Old 03-28-2019   #141
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Thank you for this link.

I'll check Foto Den Boer again!

Erik.
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Old 03-28-2019   #142
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The new copy arrived today!
I couldn't take many pictures, only a couple wide open on the way to work..









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Old 03-28-2019   #143
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but misfocusing again :-/

I don't have both to compare how this copy is back focusing compared to the other. In some cases it is ok but in most it is not optimal.

I just did a little test to see how it works with my M9.
I took 20 pictures with each lens wide open of this record at very different angles, hand held (1/180s), always focusing on the hole and this at about 1 meter away.


Maybe not very scientific but it gave me some informations:

With my copy of the Summicron v2 it was sometimes very slightly front focusing but in most of the cases this was ok, like this:


Same for the soft Summilux 35 pre asph:


The Summicron 50 v4 was always right, like this:


And the Ultron:








Now I don't know how disturbing this is in "real life" , maybe not that much, maybe more..

Ps: don't pay attention to the light, it was very overexposed and I had to darken the pictures a bit in order to see some details.
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Old 03-28-2019   #144
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That's a bummer. Judging from your pics, focus can't be off by much.

But two out of two... I'd be more suspicious of the camera than the lenses. Can you get your RF checked somewhere?

Or pack up all your lenses and camera and send them off to DAG
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Old 03-28-2019   #145
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Anyway not bad compared to the auto focus on my Canon 5d2/24-70L
bb & t near me
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Old 03-28-2019   #146
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I'll come back with more useful comparative pictures.
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Old 03-28-2019   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmanjiro View Post
That's a bummer. Judging from your pics, focus can't be off by much.

But two out of two... I'd be more suspicious of the camera than the lenses. Can you get your RF checked somewhere?

Or pack up all your lenses and camera and send them off to DAG
I'll try the Leica store in Munich tomorrow. Maybe I could even test the lens on an M240 or M10..

I could also try to live with the lens working like this, it may give me some nice pics..
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Old 03-28-2019   #148
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Thanks for the additional photos and looking forward to the comparison shots. I was just in Munich in February and had ~5 days of sun and nearly 15 degrees. Nice to see the blossoms blooming!

FWIW, my copy of the VM 35/1.7 back focuses a fair amount on my M240. But it's consistent, so I just offset the rangefinder alignment by an amount I determined after many test shots. I can hit correct focus as consistently as I can with any of my other M lenses. The M240 was recently overhauled by Leica and the RF was recalibrated, yet the misfocus with the VM remained. The camera's RF works nearly perfectly with most of my other M lenses, but if I'm extremely picky shooting wide open, some of those also require slight tweaks, usually to offset slight back focus.

It looks like your 35 Cron and 35 Lux slightly front focus. More so the Lux.
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Old 03-29-2019   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rscheffler View Post
Thanks for the additional photos and looking forward to the comparison shots. I was just in Munich in February and had ~5 days of sun and nearly 15 degrees. Nice to see the blossoms blooming!

FWIW, my copy of the VM 35/1.7 back focuses a fair amount on my M240. But it's consistent, so I just offset the rangefinder alignment by an amount I determined after many test shots. I can hit correct focus as consistently as I can with any of my other M lenses. The M240 was recently overhauled by Leica and the RF was recalibrated, yet the misfocus with the VM remained. The camera's RF works nearly perfectly with most of my other M lenses, but if I'm extremely picky shooting wide open, some of those also require slight tweaks, usually to offset slight back focus.

It looks like your 35 Cron and 35 Lux slightly front focus. More so the Lux.
I took some random pictures today and it needs more tweaking to hit the focus but it seems to be usable.
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Old 03-29-2019   #150
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Some bokeh test..

It's hand held and the framing is every time slightly different so don't try to zoom in to apreciate sharpness.. but the character of each lens is distinguishable.
All from RAW, the only modification was the WB, set to "daylight" in Photoshop.

Ultron @ f2


Ultron @ f2.8


Summicron v2 @ f2


Summicron v2 @ f2.8


Summilux pre asph v2 @ f1.4


Summilux pre asph v2 @ f2
bitcoin bank near me

Summilux pre asph v2 @ f2.8
find the nearest shell
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Old 03-29-2019   #151
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Black and white, straight from the camera:











Ultron f2



Ultron f2.8




Summicron f2


Summicron f2.8



Summilux f1.4


Summilux f2



Summilux f2.8
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Old 03-29-2019   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post

Btw, the new lens is here in Amsterdam extremely expensive, over EUR 1.200,00 at Foto Den Boer. The VM f/1.7 (black or chrome) is only about EUR 800,00.
That’s odd... In Aus the new 35/f2 is $200 cheaper than the f1.7 ($995aud, which translates as ~630 euro)
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Old 03-29-2019   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickthetasmaniac View Post
That’s odd... In Aus the new 35/f2 is $200 cheaper than the f1.7 ($995aud, which translates as ~630 euro)

I called them one minute ago. There is an error, the price of the Utron at Foto Den Boer is EUR 745,00. They've put the wrong price on it - EUR 1.200,00 - in the display in the shop, no doubt by mistake.


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Old 03-29-2019   #154
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So, is the 35/1.7 more expensive to buy than the 35/2?
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Old 03-29-2019   #155
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So, is the 35/1.7 more expensive to buy than the 35/2?

Here in Amsterdam I think so, but not by much.


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Old 03-29-2019   #156
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Depends where you shop. In the US, the two lenses are nearly the same price, with the 35/2 $20 more at $799. In the UK, the 35/2 is £100 less than the 1.7 at Robert White.

I no longer remember what the 1.7's introductory price was in 2015, though I do remember buying it from an Austrian dealer for about 625 USD, which was considerably less than the US price at the time and made the purchase worthwhile. It seems worldwide price disparity for that lens has somewhat narrowed.
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Old 03-31-2019   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
So, is the 35/1.7 more expensive to buy than the 35/2?

In Germany it's approx. the same, maybe 50€ difference in favor of the f2 version.

I'm still uncertain, to change my f1.7 against the f2
The last pictures I saw here, show a bit more nervous bokeh of the new one.

For me actually it looks like this:

Ultron f2
+ size
+ focus stick (very big point)

Ultron f1.7
+ half stop faster; I could live without it...
+ better Bokeh?
- no focus tab/stick

In my region it's a problem to find a local dealer for a comparison between both.

WW distribution is a big problem vor Cosina, I think ...
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Old 03-31-2019   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVIL_Guy View Post

In my region it's a problem to find a local dealer for a comparison between both.

WW distribution is a big problem vor Cosina, I think ...

In Europe Cosina is related to RingFoto, headquarters in Germany. The items are only for sale in related shops. This is what I understand. Other dealers can buy the stuff and resell it. Related dealers get all the stuff and can put it on display in their shops. I guess this is how they work.


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Old 03-31-2019   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik van Straten View Post
In Europe Cosina is related to RingFoto, headquarters in Germany. The items are only for sale in related shops. This is what I understand...

That's right, but most of the local dealers dont't have the CV lenses in their local shops!
You can order them online, but not test directly.


I think it is the same in the Netherlands and all over Europe - Unfortunately ...
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Old 03-31-2019   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVIL_Guy View Post
That's right, but most of the local dealers dont't have the CV lenses in their local shops!
You can order them online, but not test directly.


I think it is the same in the Netherlands and all over Europe - Unfortunately ...
No, in Amsterdam is one shop that has almost all the items on display. You can try them out. That shop is Foto Den Boer in the 2nd Hugo de Grootstraat. Great folks.

But outside Amsterdam this will be difficult.

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