Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Rangefinder Forum > Image Processing: Darkroom / Lightroom / Film > Scanners / Scanner Software

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Old 11-15-2017   #81
jzagaja
My website www.horns.pl
 
jzagaja is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Jack, could you post again a link to your curve for inverting the output of Camera Raw (that is, a gamma encoded image)?
Below is inverted log curve - you only need levels and saturation (also included in ZIP package). This curve only works for linear 16-bits TIFF files.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ndX...ew?usp=sharing

Conversion of your last images below. Ektar requires 50% less added saturation and has better reds separation.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 100918-Fr19-3000k-NoFilter-DSC0004.tiff.jpg (40.7 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg 101026-Tokyo-Fr6.tiff.jpg (45.3 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg 171004-TestBox-Ektar100-NoFilter-DSC9554.tiff.jpg (45.0 KB, 45 views)
__________________
Jack
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #82
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Below is inverted log curve - you only need levels and saturation (also included in ZIP package). This curve only works for linear 16-bits TIFF files.
Jack, so, to use the curve:
- Make a linear tiff with MakeTiff or draw
- Open in Photoshop
- Curves... use your .amp file (result looks awful)
- Make an "Auto" adjustment (result looks pretty good)

Is this about right? (I'm not going to play with channel mixer.)
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #83
Bill Clark
Registered User
 
Bill Clark's Avatar
 
Bill Clark is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minnetonka, Minnesota
Age: 71
Posts: 2,533
Quote:
as Automatic as Possible
My solution, I would find an envelope of appropriate size for the quantity of negatives and send them to be scanned.

Developing and scanning was expensive when I was film based with my business because I could be more productive with my time. Cost was built into the price a client paid.
__________________
I make photographs as a return ticket to a moment otherwise gone.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #84
Betin
Registered User
 
Betin is offline
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Below is inverted log curve - you only need levels and saturation (also included in ZIP package). This curve only works for linear 16-bits TIFF files.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ndX...ew?usp=sharing

Conversion of your last images below. Ektar requires 50% less added saturation and has better reds separation.
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing! I've being experimenting with digital camera scans for a while now. I've tried your method of dcraw+conversion curve on my files and it delivers the most consistent and believable result of all.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #85
jzagaja
My website www.horns.pl
 
jzagaja is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Jack, so, to use the curve:
- Make a linear tiff with MakeTiff or draw
- Open in Photoshop
- Curves... use your .amp file (result looks awful)
- Make an "Auto" adjustment (result looks pretty good)

Is this about right? (I'm not going to play with channel mixer.)
Exactly. I've used Saturation AIMRGBpro +100.cha except Ektar that was +50 only because saturates quicker.
__________________
Jack
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #86
jzagaja
My website www.horns.pl
 
jzagaja is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 348
By comparison Ektar drum scanned same way is already fully saturated and beautifull (I haven't removed magenta from skintones using R gamma)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/661090...692024/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/661090...322184/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/661090...407905/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/661090...268433/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/661090...910354/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/661090...621524/sizes/l
__________________
Jack
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #87
jbielikowski
call me Jan
 
jbielikowski's Avatar
 
jbielikowski is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betin View Post
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing! I've being experimenting with digital camera scans for a while now. I've tried your method of dcraw+conversion curve on my files and it delivers the most consistent and believable result of all.
+1 on Wow. I finished version with Jack's presets (plus some fine tuning) and then opened previous version... damn I liked it before but now it looks awful compared to new one (I had same reaction before, when I used SF instead of flatbed Auto).
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #88
jzagaja
My website www.horns.pl
 
jzagaja is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 348
You only need carefully adjust white/black points and sometimes R or/and B gamma. Log curve keeps film character.
__________________
Jack
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #89
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Log curve keeps film character.
I am in complete concurrence. When I did camera-scan with simple (linear) inversions, the results looked sort of OK, good contrast, the darkest and lightest areas were OK, but everything in between was off-key. Arguably correctable, maybe livable, but off-key.

Jack's curve was an eye-opener. Then my exploration of ColorPerfect. And, then learning that I could read the linear-tiff in Vuescan. Apparently, same is possible in Silverfast. My net: All of these produce markedly better results than the simple inversion.

My net-net:
- Shoot in RAW
- Make a linear tiff (dcraw or MakeTiff)
- Do the non-linear inversion (Jack's curve, ColorPerfect, VueScan or Silverfast)
- Apply PhotoShop "Auto" (Auto Contrast, Tone, Color or Curve... Option-Auto)

I believe that any of the above will produce an image that's about as good as the Mini-Lab and will be a good base for further adjustment.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #90
jzagaja
My website www.horns.pl
 
jzagaja is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 348
Now you can try get same results out of camera jpeg
__________________
Jack
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #91
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 8,733
This is what I got using ColorPerfect: just opened and lightened slightly:
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #92
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
This is what I got using ColorPerfect: just opened and lightened slightly:
John, I think ColorPerfect gives very good results, your example is excellent all the way around. I had to add Saturation to get the good reds.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #93
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 8,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
John, I think ColorPerfect gives very good results, your example is excellent all the way around. I had to add Saturation to get the good reds.
I've never done a C-41 with a digital DNG file and then used MakeTIFF for a TIFF file. And then open in PerfectRAW, but at some point you will have to invert, but when I don't know.

So for that file I used ColorPerfect's ColorNEG.

I didn't want to add Saturation because that is a personal taste decision.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #94
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Exactly. I've used Saturation AIMRGBpro +100.cha except Ektar that was +50 only because saturates quicker.
Jack, can you explain the Channel Mixer presets you have shared. There are 200 items, ranging from -100 to +100. It appears to me that these are presets to add/remove different degrees of saturation. Like PS or LR's saturation adjustment, but with slightly different effect.

Are these general, that is, a better way to add/remove saturation for all images?

Or, are these specific to film? That is, purpose-built for adjusting saturation in film scans?

Also, FWIW, I can match your result for the "steps" image, and it's very good, but only with a linear tiff produced by dcraw.

- Make a linear tiff with dcraw -v -w -H 0 -o 0 -q 3 -4 -T fileName
- Open in Photoshop
- Curves... use your c-log-rev-inv.amp file (result looks awful, bluish haze)
- Channel Mixer with preset AIMRGBpro +100.cha (more sat, but still awful)
- Make an "Auto" adjustment (result looks very good)

When I do the same with a linear tiff from MakeTiff, highlights are blown and color-cast.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #95
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Now you can try get same results out of camera jpeg
No thanks. I'm not even going to try.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #96
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
... at some point you will have to invert, but when I don't know.

So for that file I used ColorPerfect's ColorNEG.

I didn't want to add Saturation because that is a personal taste decision.
When I mentioned ColorPerfect, I'm using their current naming. The old ColorNEG is an option in ColorPerfect, that's what I used.

My steps for this route:
- Shoot RAW, whatever camera, I get a .ARW, but a .DNG works as well
- MakeTiff
- Open in Photoshop.
- Filter... ColorPerfect... ColorNeg, adjust to taste
- Probably add Photoshop's "Auto"

For some reason, I had to add saturation to get a result that looks like yours. Don't know what's different.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #97
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 8,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
When I mentioned ColorPerfect, I'm using their current naming. The old ColorNEG is an option in ColorPerfect, that's what I used.

My steps for this route:
- Shoot RAW, whatever camera, I get a .ARW, but a .DNG works as well
- MakeTiff
- Open in Photoshop.
- Filter... ColorPerfect... ColorNeg, adjust to taste
- Probably add Photoshop's "Auto"

For some reason, I had to add saturation to get a result that looks like yours. Don't know what's different.
Don't you have to open your MAKE TIFF file in PerfectRAW? I'm surprised that it would come out at all. But like I said above I've never tried it.

When I said, 'So for that file I used ColorPerfect's ColorNEG.' I used your jpeg file not the DNG file.

I copied your negative shot off my screen.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #98
mlu19
Registered User
 
mlu19 is offline
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 78
@ColSebastianMoran that's my current workflow as well. However, I have not yet tested whether the scanning light source is a key variable here. I have found the white balance is a hit or miss from a straight conversion via ColorPerfect. Most of the time I have to tinker with it to get the desired color, either in ColorPerfect (by clicking a neutral grey area), or in Lightroom.

What are your thoughts on nailing the white balance through a more auto method?
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #99
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
Don't you have to open your MAKE TIFF file in PerfectRAW? I'm surprised that it would come out at all. But like I said above I've never tried it.

When I said, 'So for that file I used ColorPerfect's ColorNEG.' I used your jpeg file not the DNG file.

I copied your negative shot off my screen.
You worked from a screenshot of my negative? Surprising that it turned out at all.

My ColorPerfect is a Photoshop filter. It has four options: TouchUp, ColorNeg, ColorPos, and PerfectRAW. I've only used ColorNeg.

So RAW -> MakeTiff -> Photoshop -> Filter... CF Systems... ColorPerfect... ColorNeg.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #100
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlu19 View Post
@ColSebastianMoran that's my current workflow as well. However, I have not yet tested whether the scanning light source is a key variable here. I have found the white balance is a hit or miss from a straight conversion via ColorPerfect.
"That's my current workflow..." -- Which one? ColorPerfect?

Scanning light source:

I think I get better results with 5500K than with 3000K to illuminate the negative. I use flash; one could use daylight. I don't use LEDs.

Looking at histograms with flash to illuminate the negative, red is higher than green, and blue is way behind. I tried rebalancing the source with filters, adding Cyan and some Magenta to give a more even set of histograms. This is like "Expose to the Right" channel by channel.

In my tests, MakeTiff -> ColorPerfect gives a better result without the added filtration on the scanning light source. My guess is that white-balancing at the scanning light source confuses the program.

Color balance? I'm counting on the automation in Color Perfect and I usually add one of the "Auto" options in Photoshop. This is a rough Auto WB, but not as good as our digicams. My C-41 negatives were shot in varying light; should be no surprise that I have to adjust color balance in the end. I haven't started production yet, but I intend to do color balance in Lightroom.

Finally, FWIW, I find I have to add saturation for camera-scans of Fuji negatives, less for Ektar negatives.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #101
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 8,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
You worked from a screenshot of my negative? Surprising that it turned out at all.

My ColorPerfect is a Photoshop filter. It has four options: TouchUp, ColorNeg, ColorPos, and PerfectRAW. I've only used ColorNeg.

So RAW -> MakeTiff -> Photoshop -> Filter... CF Systems... ColorPerfect... ColorNeg.
Wow, when I make a MakeTiff TIF file I can hardly see anything it is almost black. Then when I hit PerfectRAW it comes out so I don't even have to hit the white balance feature. The reason I didn't use your RAW file was it didn't open in PSE.

I'll have to try a MakeTiff TIFF file in ColorNeg??????
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #102
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
I copied your negative shot off my screen.
OK, I'm astounded. Opening the jpg shot of the negative in PS, then applying the Color Perfect filter, gives reasonable color.

I still think RAW -> MakeTiff -> ColorPerfect -> maybe one more auto adj
gives the best result.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #103
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
Wow, when I make a MakeTiff TIF file I can hardly see anything it is almost black. Then when I hit PerfectRAW it comes out so I don't even have to hit the white balance feature. The reason I didn't use your RAW file was it didn't open in PSE.

I'll have to try a MakeTiff TIFF file in ColorNeg??????
Feed my RAW to MakeTiff, and work from there.

The linear tiff file opens fine in Photoshop; it looks stupidly dark. ColorPerfect knows how to fix it.

MakeTiff -> ColorNeg is the recommended process by CF Systems, and MakeTiff -> ColorPos for positive images.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #104
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 8,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Feed my RAW to MakeTiff, and work from there.

The linear tiff file opens fine in Photoshop; it looks stupidly dark. ColorPerfect knows how to fix it.

MakeTiff -> ColorNeg is the recommended process by CF Systems, and MakeTiff -> ColorPos for positive images.
I'll try it, I just tried a MakeTiff TIFF file from a Digital camera and opened it in ColorNeg and it was, well, negative then I hit Filter, Adjustment, and invert; not good.

I would like to know what you did to get an image.

If I had my way with the world. I would convert my RAW file of a C-41 negative to just regular TIFF and then open it in ColorPerfect using ColorPos.

And that is what I did with your copied jpeg. But I'd rather have a TIFF, and I don't really know how to do that.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #105
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
I'll try it, I just tried a MakeTiff TIFF file from a Digital camera and opened it in ColorNeg and it was, well, negative then I hit Filter, Adjustment, and invert; not good.

And that is what I did with your copied jpeg. But I'd rather have a TIFF, and I don't really know how to do that.
Digital camera (positive) -> MakeTiff (still positive, but dark) -> ColorNeg

... That will invert the file and make it negative.

Try this:
- Get my raw file for the test box (a negative image)
- MakeTiff (resulting tiff will still be negative, very dark)
- Then ColorNeg (inverts and fixes everything)
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #106
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 8,733
It didn't really work for me, but I'll try again. I suppose that if I made a C-41 digital image with my DSLR in RAW and then saved it in PS as a TIFF file. After saving and then went to ColorPerfect and used ColorNeg. I would get what I did with your jpeg copy and I would have very little messing around in post?? Thanks, I don't really like work around(s) but at least mine is simple.

Isn't a RAW file already a linear file? I don't know because I work mostly is film. But when I want something really tight I do use my DSLR set up of 35mm 'scanning.'

Untitled by John Carter, on Flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #107
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
I suppose that if I made a C-41 digital image with my DSLR in RAW and then saved it in PS as a TIFF file. After saving and then went to ColorPerfect and used ColorNeg. I would get what I did with your jpeg copy and I would have very little messing around in post?? Thanks, I don't really like work around(s) but at least mine is simple.

Isn't a RAW file already a linear file? I don't know because I work mostly is film. But when I want something really tight I do use my DSLR set up of 35mm 'scanning.'
John --

Put a negative in your DSLR copy rig. Shoot it in RAW.

RAW file -> MakeTiff -> ColorPerfect (ColorNeg)

Much better color tonality than doing the RAW conversion in any other program and then processing in ColorPerfect.

Yes, the RAW file is linear data. But, if you do the RAW conversion in Photoshop or any other program, it's no longer linear. You've seen this: The output of MakeTiff doesn't look like the output of an Adobe CameraRaw conversion.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #108
meloV8
Registered User
 
meloV8 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 96
And again MakeTiff and Silverfast

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uplwng3ekh...0srgb.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4q21sjgrfk...0srgb.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o1hkd6jv2z...0srgb.jpg?dl=0
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #109
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 8,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
John --

RAW file -> MakeTiff -> ColorPerfect (ColorNeg)


Yes, the RAW file is linear data. But, if you do the RAW conversion in Photoshop or any other program, it's no longer linear.
Right, I hadn't thought of that. Still, don't you have to use PerfectRAW before you put the PerfectRAW file into ColorNeg?

When I put any MakeTIFF file into color negative it doesn't come at all. But I haven't had a C-41 RAW file to work with.

I may try one tomorrow.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #110
jzagaja
My website www.horns.pl
 
jzagaja is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Jack, can you explain the Channel Mixer presets you have shared. There are 200 items, ranging from -100 to +100. It appears to me that these are presets to add/remove different degrees of saturation. Like PS or LR's saturation adjustment, but with slightly different effect.

Are these general, that is, a better way to add/remove saturation for all images?

Or, are these specific to film? That is, purpose-built for adjusting saturation in film scans?

Also, FWIW, I can match your result for the "steps" image, and it's very good, but only with a linear tiff produced by dcraw.

- Make a linear tiff with dcraw -v -w -H 0 -o 0 -q 3 -4 -T fileName
- Open in Photoshop
- Curves... use your c-log-rev-inv.amp file (result looks awful, bluish haze)
- Channel Mixer with preset AIMRGBpro +100.cha (more sat, but still awful)
- Make an "Auto" adjustment (result looks very good)

When I do the same with a linear tiff from MakeTiff, highlights are blown and color-cast.
Right - saturation adjust via channel mixer produce slightly better result (better tone separation, less clipping, darker colors) - you can try do it before log curve to see if it taste better - saturation vectors were calculated for AIMRGBpro space that is wide gamut and gamma 1. Adding saturation is a must because image in wide gamut will look desaturated on sRGB screen.

If Autolevels does not find white/black point properly then do it manually for each channel moving sliders up to tails then use R or B gamma middle sliders to correct midtones for some films/light conditions. Results from MakeTIFF and DCraw should be similar despite color cast you see when you open image.

All things we discussed here is old topic from over 17 years ago when decent scanners appeard on market for masses. Photoshop 6 era.
__________________
Jack
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-16-2017   #111
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
@meloV8, those are good. Fully automatic? That's about what I'm getting out of MakeTiff -> ColorPerfect.

FWIW, I'm finding that I want to add saturation to what's coming out of the "Auto" settings when doing camera-scan of color-neg material.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-16-2017   #112
brbo
Registered User
 
brbo's Avatar
 
brbo is offline
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,448
Straight out of homebrew script (no PS was used except for applying AdobeRGB profile and then converting to sRGB for proper web display):







Minor tweaks about colour balance from case to case still needed, we will try to come up with a way to do that automagically...
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-16-2017   #113
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
@brbo, your home-brew script is good. Yes, minor tweaks still needed, but if those are almost-auto, that script is good.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-16-2017   #114
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Friends, just to show that our camera-scans are doing pretty well, here's the Mini-Lab scan of the test box Fuji200 film. My aim in all this has been to get almost-automatic scans as good as the mini-lab I used to use, files that would be suitable for further touch-up. I think the examples here show we can do this with camera-scans.



And, with this, I suggest we wind down this thread. Thank you all for your participation and tips. I've learned a lot in this process.

Go ahead and post further replies if you wish, but I'm going to wind down.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-16-2017   #115
charjohncarter
Registered User
 
charjohncarter's Avatar
 
charjohncarter is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Danville, CA, USA
Posts: 8,733
Thanks for bringing the subject up. I learned a lot. And have updated my ColorPerfect and MakeTIFF.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-16-2017   #116
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by charjohncarter View Post
Thanks for bring the subject up. I learned a lot. And have updated my ColorPerfect and MakeTIFF.
John, I think your updated ColorPerfect will serve you well.

My best regards to all!
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-16-2017   #117
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
 
ColSebastianMoran's Avatar
 
ColSebastianMoran is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,339
p.s. I promised a good film camera to the contributor who helped me the most.

A good Yashica SLR with 28mm lens is on it's way to Jack Zagaja in Poland. And, big thanks to all who contributed.
__________________
Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nothing.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-16-2017   #118
jim0266
Registered User
 
jim0266 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReeRay View Post
Invert>auto tone>auto color>Levels to fine tune. Finish.

171004-TestBox-Fuji200-SonyNoFilter-DSC9558 by Ray Evans, on Flickr
You, sir, are are my new photo hero.
__________________
My Web Site
My RFF Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-17-2017   #119
brbo
Registered User
 
brbo's Avatar
 
brbo is offline
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,448
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post
Very little difference between DCraw and MakeTIFF.
dcraw gives the same output as MakeTiff with added "-r 1 1 1 1" parameter:

dcraw -v -H 0 -r 1 1 1 0 -q 3 -4 -T -o 0 filename.raw


Then the camera recorded WB is not used for output nor is computed during dcraw processing. Should not make much of a difference for single image, but might give more consistency for automated batch inversions...
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-29-2017   #120
kaffefant
Registered User
 
kaffefant is offline
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 7
Hi,

First post on the forum, but this thread was so interesting that I had to join to reply.

I use an imagemagick.org script called "negfix8" for my negative processing: https://sites.google.com/site/negfix/

It works very good, but is very sensitive to extreme light and dark elements in the scanned frame, such as negative carrier shadow, large dust particles or sprocket holes (or clipped channels in general). I've tweaked the script a bit to fit my own scanning habits and inserted it into a batch scrip with dcraw raw conversion. This way, I can process entire folders of raw files without user intervention.

I find the results quite good and the are usually easy to edit into pleasing colours. The test images of this thread turned out like this, processed as batch, however I've had to adjust white balance of the raw conversion separately.

First test image:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvh6nmsoaq...58_o0.jpg?dl=0



The Ektar scene:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cguzb1galk...54_o0.jpg?dl=0

The rest:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f87d1lqaoq..._0017.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qkcf5jh7n6...r6_cs.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xjoe5bqemo...04_o0.jpg?dl=0

brbo: would you care to share your script?

Thank you all far a very informative thread..

Last edited by kaffefant : 11-29-2017 at 12:58. Reason: spelling errors
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 17:24.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.