Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Rangefinder Forum > Optics Theory -

Optics Theory - This forum is aimed towards the TECHNICAL side of photographic OPTICS THEORY. There will be some overlap by camera/manufacturer, but this forum is for the heavy duty tech discussions. This is NOT the place to discuss a specific lens or lens line, do that in the appropriate forum. This is the forum to discuss optics or lenses in general, to learn about the tech behind the lenses and images. IF you have a question about a specific lens, post it in the forum about that type of camera, NOT HERE.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Classic comparison - Summicron DR vs Nokton 1.5
Old 04-15-2019   #1
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
Classic comparison - Summicron DR vs Nokton 1.5

Let's compare the 1950s Summicron Dual Range to the Nokton 1.5. I haven't done this in a while, but got an Amedeo adapter for my vintage Nokton 50/1.5 in Prominent mount to M the other day. I've heard, variously, that either the Summicron DR or the Nokton was "the best 50mm fast lens in the 1950s." Best is a subjective word, but usually people are saying "best resolution."

I'll start out with the easiest aperture for a lens to do well, F8. See if you can tell which is which. Click for larger for the first two.












__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-15-2019   #2
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
Now let's make it easier, F2.



__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-15-2019   #3
giganova
Registered User
 
giganova is offline
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,304
Is this a trick question? At f/8 there shouldn't be a difference.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-16-2019   #4
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
These are two totally different lens designs. There will be, and are, differences at F8. Can you not see them?
__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-16-2019   #5
Erik van Straten
Registered User
 
Erik van Straten's Avatar
 
Erik van Straten is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,960
At f/2 (post 2) the second shot is the Summicron.


Erik.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-16-2019   #6
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
You are correct! All the above sets of 2, the Nokton is first. What I'm seeing, but it's hard to have time to show here, is that the Nokton is sharper in the center at F4 - F11, than the vaunted Summicron. At F8, it even appears sharper at the edges, and it has more contrast at all stops. It also has warmer color rendition, typical of a Sonnar derivative. I'll show those things when I have time to create the crops.
__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-16-2019   #7
Crazy Fedya
Registered User
 
Crazy Fedya's Avatar
 
Crazy Fedya is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lon Gisland
Posts: 984
Garrett,
In f/8 sets , it seems that the second photos have more contrast than the first.
__________________
Regards,
Sam.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-16-2019   #8
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
It's a very subtle difference. Which one here, crops of F8?

__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-16-2019   #9
Crazy Fedya
Registered User
 
Crazy Fedya's Avatar
 
Crazy Fedya is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lon Gisland
Posts: 984
#2 is Nokton?
__________________
Regards,
Sam.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-16-2019   #10
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
Which has more contrast? That is the question first!
__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-16-2019   #11
Crazy Fedya
Registered User
 
Crazy Fedya's Avatar
 
Crazy Fedya is offline
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lon Gisland
Posts: 984
Interesting! When I looked several hours ago, #2 seemed to have more contrast. When I looked just now, #1 definitely has more contrast.
__________________
Regards,
Sam.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-17-2019   #12
BLKRCAT
99% Film
 
BLKRCAT's Avatar
 
BLKRCAT is offline
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,775
Classic RFF. Even after a few months of absence there's still the same lens comparisons that people were talking about for years.

I think #1 is the Summicron and #2 is the Nokton. Contrast and Color give it away.

I went from a rigid summicron to my Nokton and while I don't have one of the best summicrons ever made and the leica name on my lens I'm still very happy with the performance from the Nokton.
__________________
Tumblr Youtube
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-17-2019   #13
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
Yes, talk is cheap. Did anyone SHOW side by side comparisons? What is classic RFF to me is someone showing one nice photo taken with some lens, and saying "the XYZ lens works great, better than any ABC!" No comparison, just an isolated photo - my premise is you can get a great photo with ANY lens. But on metrics....

I'm more of an analytical person. When everyone talks about "Leica glow" I asked, "show me". And by that, I mean show me two identical shots with an A to B comparison. Which I've done here. I've done a few here over the years. I guess I could compare a Summicron to another lens, maybe something off an Argus C3, but it's difficult and the results will be as anticipated. I'd heard these two were "the best" 50mm fast lenses of the 1950s. I agree.


The Nokton has slightly better contrast, slightly warmer color tones, and is as sharp as a Summicron. Confirmed (to me anyway), based on my experiment.
__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-17-2019   #14
Archlich
Registered User
 
Archlich is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,248
The Nokton by design is mostly comparable to the Summilux ASPH.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-17-2019   #15
TenEleven
Registered User
 
TenEleven's Avatar
 
TenEleven is offline
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
The Nokton by design is mostly comparable to the Summilux ASPH.
I believe the lens in question here is not the Modern Cosina-Voigtlander 50mm/1.5 Nokton, which does indeed contain an ASPH element, but the original 1950ies (for the Prominent) 5cm/1.5 Nokton lens, which has none.
__________________
Manuel
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-17-2019   #16
kiemchacsu
Registered User
 
kiemchacsu is offline
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 38
Posts: 977
Quote:
Originally Posted by goamules View Post
Yes, talk is cheap. Did anyone SHOW side by side comparisons? What is classic RFF to me is someone showing one nice photo taken with some lens, and saying "the XYZ lens works great, better than any ABC!" No comparison, just an isolated photo - my premise is you can get a great photo with ANY lens. But on metrics....

I'm more of an analytical person. When everyone talks about "Leica glow" I asked, "show me". And by that, I mean show me two identical shots with an A to B comparison. Which I've done here. I've done a few here over the years. I guess I could compare a Summicron to another lens, maybe something off an Argus C3, but it's difficult and the results will be as anticipated. I'd heard these two were "the best" 50mm fast lenses of the 1950s. I agree.


The Nokton has slightly better contrast, slightly warmer color tones, and is as sharp as a Summicron. Confirmed (to me anyway), based on my experiment.
thanks for putting efforts making these comparision?
how about the distoration? is the nokton as good as the summircon?
__________________
Cheers,
Trung Nguyen

RF
F
photo essays: Hanoi | Hoi An | Ha Giang | Fish Market
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-17-2019   #17
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
 
Rob-F's Avatar
 
Rob-F is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Show Me state
Age: 78
Posts: 5,853
In the f/2 shots of the bookcase, I picked the Summicron for contrast and sharpness.
__________________
May the light be with you.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-18-2019   #18
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiemchacsu View Post
thanks for putting efforts making these comparision?
how about the distoration? is the nokton as good as the summircon?
Good question. If you shoot it at F2 they are pretty similar where you are focused. At the edges, at F1.5 and F2 the Nokton gets a little bit of sperical aberration or field curvature, or both. The out of focus areas (bokeh) are a little more noticeable with the Nokton, from F1.5 to about F4. If you try, you can get a pretty wild out of focus area with it:



__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-18-2019   #19
goamules
Registered User
 
goamules is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,779
Here are both again with some backgrounds. But shot at only F4. Same order as the first couple of posts (I did reverse the order on the bookshelf closeups).



__________________
Garrett

My Flickr Photos
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 13:47.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.