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View Poll Results: Do you print or prep digital negatives with B&W 3rd Party Inks?
Yes 9 42.86%
No 12 57.14%
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Old 07-17-2018   #41
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Cal: So now I see what you're talking about in terms of photo clean-up. Found a shot that otherwise looked fine on the screen printed with smudges which I've had to fix. ...

But all in, I think it took 5 rounds or so printing to get everything all fixed up. Maybe more. ...That's a good thing... even if it's a bit hard to explain to folks in this web lovin' world.
Hi JW / Skip,

of course some shots might not be perfect to start with for printing but still worth saving with a lot of post processing work. I don't know your skills but typically the less processing is involved the better the result will look like. Try to maximize the image quality at time of exposure and minimize post processing. This is obviously a personal preference thing but it works great for me. Keep your sensor clean, keep you lenses clean, max. out your exposure. No matter what PP tools you use. raising the exposure in post will degrade IQ, maybe not directly visible on screen but the print will tell you.

It will make the difference between a "nice" print that has nothing obviously wrong and a stunning print.
Hard to explain but when you see such a print in front of you, you will immediately know.

General remark...
I think the capabilities of modern cameras and photo software invites people to get sloppy. They can still get good results that have been unthinkable a couple of years ago but still nothing trumps basic skill and paying attention to details that matter for IQ. This is just in general, as there are a couple of threads about the only correct way to choose technically superior equipment. To each his own.
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Old 07-17-2018   #42
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Hi JW / Skip,

of course some shots might not be perfect to start with for printing but still worth saving with a lot of post processing work. I don't know your skills but typically the less processing is involved the better the result will look like. Try to maximize the image quality at time of exposure and minimize post processing. This is obviously a personal preference thing but it works great for me. Keep your sensor clean, keep you lenses clean, max. out your exposure. No matter what PP tools you use. raising the exposure in post will degrade IQ, maybe not directly visible on screen but the print will tell you.

It will make the difference between a "nice" print that has nothing obviously wrong and a stunning print.
Hard to explain but when you see such a print in front of you, you will immediately know.

General remark...
I think the capabilities of modern cameras and photo software invites people to get sloppy. They can still get good results that have been unthinkable a couple of years ago but still nothing trumps basic skill and paying attention to details that matter for IQ. This is just in general, as there are a couple of threads about the only correct way to choose technically superior equipment. To each his own.
Skip,

Klaus speaks wisdom here. In most cases people are not using skill to extract the maximum IQ. You can get medium and even large format IQ, tonality and smoothness in B&W from small format. The prints are that good, and I'm talking nosing-up into the prints and not seeing anything fuzzy.

Pretty much it is all about optimumization...

With Piezography today, nano-technology makes the Piezography Pro less likely to clog than Epson OEM inks. My Piezography Pro 3880 is not prone to clogs at all. Also I can do a Salgado and contact print digital negatives without needing the best lab in Paris with a turnkey system that uses the same inkset that I can use to proof with by first making an inkjet print.

First proof with inkjet, and then contact print wet prints for perfect limited editions with the same print/inkset. The key to these possibilities is to begin to think like a large format shooter and emulate their technics like maximize everything at time of image capture. Pretty much presently I have the capabilities in my home to print like a large format shooter (contact printing negatives) if I had the studio space.

"Big prints don't lie."

The question here are you really maxing out all your gear, and are you really technically that good a photographer to take things to the limit?

Cal
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Old 07-17-2018   #43
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Skip,

For the like minded: many people buy performance cars, but do they ever go to a track or wide open road to see how fast the car can go?

How many people own performance cars, but never go to race driving school to really explore the physics to learn how to tap the full performance and capabilities available to them?


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Old 07-17-2018   #44
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Hey guys--your opinion, please, on the following choices for piezographic adaptation:

1/refresh/reset my Epson 3800 (which has gone through multiple moves in the past 2 years, and has been stored unused since early 2016. It'll need a flush in any case before I know whether the gremlins have done evil to its innards).

2/Start afresh: Buy a P6000 or P7000 from B&H (there's a used (returned) P7000 for $2200 now).

3/Your other printer suggestion? Cost is secondary to pain-free reliability (and being able to scale up to 24" wide).

_______________

Room to operate is not a problem--I have an oversized carpeted garage, with windows onto the back garden and patio, where I also keep my print drawers (10 drawer 36x48 nautical chart cabinet).

The 3800 has been reliable for many prints (and was lightly used when I bought it from a gallery) but was last operated in early 2016, and at minimum requires a hunk of lead on the ink cart cover to keep its latch from popping open and stalling i.e. ruining the print job.

I'm thinking start afresh, and then later on deal with the 3800, perhaps as Cal uses his 3880, or simply trying to sell it to another Humboldt County photographer.

Thanks!
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Old 07-17-2018   #45
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Klaus: Sound advice. Minimalization is actually one of the things that drove me back to film... at least for an interim. My "level" is something above beginner, but the key for me is composition and exposure, where edits focus on picks/selection, and then there's some clean-up, refinement, and possibly a crop. Scans have to be cropped to remove the frame - if nothing else. From film, typically it's going the opposite direction, but there is a degree of latitude. Digital edits are waaaaaaaaaaay simpler for me. Color temp, a few curves, not much else.

Toughest thing about photography (for me at the moment)? Time. Especially getting up early enough, or getting folks to give me time out shooting in the evening. Nice to be wanted around, but hey... the light's the thing. Time of day - or lighting makes it easier to get good photos. And putting away the fancy gear to work with a Rolleiflex 3.5F and a hand held meter - simpler and simpler gear. The challenge of working this way seems to be teaching me more and giving me more joy... and that's what I love about it. Oddly, it's keeping my digital and fancy film cameras in the bag and I can't say all the results are there but I think eventually it will yield if I keep pushing.

That said, I'm probably better with the printer than the camera. Time I'm spending in post is to remove some of the minor defects / artifacts that remain. Some folks don't worry about that. I tend to. Seems worth it. At present with Piezography, the finish on the photos is in my view much better than the Colorbyte Imageprint for B&W, and pushing back to learn the Capture One tools I'd not learned. Getting them down, using layers is something that's been recommended, but I've just avoided the bother. Can say it allows some really useful subtleties... and I'm after control of the grays. If you google up Richard Boutwell's Capture One youtube, you can see the efforts in the hands of someone a slew of notches above my grade suggest the effort pays dividends.

In my hands? Modest so far. Give me another 12 months.

Cal: I love big prints, and a P800's pretty nice for that... using color film or color digital. Leaving those in the Epson inks for now, until Cone does more work to deal with the firmware shenanigans. Epson clobbered mine this spring, so I need a firmware backshift that's out there, but I'm afraid to be the guinea pig. Works with color for now, so aside from the cost... it just needs ink. But for Piezo, I've done a 12 X 12 on 13 X 19 which a bit skinny for a matting effort, but do-able. Miss the 16 X 25? Yes. Figure if I want that, I can order from Cone or Boutwell. Cheaper to have a printer and use it a lot than to have too many specialist machines at the moment.
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Old 07-18-2018   #46
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Originally Posted by rhl-oregon View Post
Hey guys--your opinion, please, on the following choices for piezographic adaptation:

1/refresh/reset my Epson 3800 (which has gone through multiple moves in the past 2 years, and has been stored unused since early 2016. It'll need a flush in any case before I know whether the gremlins have done evil to its innards).

2/Start afresh: Buy a P6000 or P7000 from B&H (there's a used (returned) P7000 for $2200 now).

3/Your other printer suggestion? Cost is secondary to pain-free reliability (and being able to scale up to 24" wide).

_______________

Room to operate is not a problem--I have an oversized carpeted garage, with windows onto the back garden and patio, where I also keep my print drawers (10 drawer 36x48 nautical chart cabinet).

The 3800 has been reliable for many prints (and was lightly used when I bought it from a gallery) but was last operated in early 2016, and at minimum requires a hunk of lead on the ink cart cover to keep its latch from popping open and stalling i.e. ruining the print job.

I'm thinking start afresh, and then later on deal with the 3800, perhaps as Cal uses his 3880, or simply trying to sell it to another Humboldt County photographer.

Thanks!
Robert,

That P7000 is a great deal, but consider with the $750.00 rebate from Epson you can get a brand new boxed P7000 for $2.6K and sell the color inkset to offset the cost. Not sure if the initial inkset is only to load/charge the printer, but if a 350 ml and selling the OEM color inkset the brand new printer likely would be cheaper.

For me it is a no brainer. In the class of a 24 inch printer the P7000 with its 10 cart slots allows it to be the ultimate printer for Piezography Pro because it has two extra slots that Jon Cone utilizes for the light-light warm and light-light cool. This inkset has smooth roll off in the highlights like analog film wet prints.

Understand that the 3800 and 3880 are the same printer as far as hardware and that these printers are known to have long print head life. The differences between these printers are the firmware and the inksets.

They have a reputation for durability and are workhorses, but in my 4 years of experience the paper handling of a full blown floor standing "Pro" printer is the way to go.

With my 3880 I had to do all these workarounds due to head strikes, head scuffing. Also I have to offset my images on my prints to avoid head strikes using my workaround. Another limitation is that 17x22 sheet size is too small, and the image size is limited because I require big boarders.

These difficulties are mostly due to me printing glossy, and the artifact I'm trying to avoid are "Pizza Wheels" that come from the "Star Wheels" that are part of the 3880. My 7800 keeps the paper flat against the platen using a vacuum created by a set of Muffin Fans, and this system is vastly superior to the mechanical system on my 3880.

My 7800 with 8 cart slots is likely the best 24 inch printer (along with the 7880) for K-7, but the P7000 for Piezography Pro with its 10 cart slots is the ideal 24 inch printer for Piezography Pro.

As far as K-7 High Density verses Piezography Pro the best inkset really depends on the tonal range of the histogram.

Both are exceptional, and I feel I need both. K-7 HD for the long tonal range and where most of the information is in the mids. This is well suited for landscapes and images that have their voice in the mids. K-7 has a more vast tonal range.

But when the image wants to convey itself through contrast Piezography Pro has this smoothness. When the details are in the shadows Piezography Pro presents great depth there. The bonus is the speed and convenience of one-pass printing.

You are in luck. I just got an E-mail blast about the Annual InkJetMall Summer Sale. Up to 17 1/2% off. Time to load up the truck on paper and ink.

One last thing. Roll paper offers cost savings over cut sheets in 17x22 size, but the big advantage is being able to bump the width to 24 inch. For me it makes no sense to buy 17 inch roll paper because using 24 inch rolls allow me to print bigger for the same price as cut sheet 17x22.

BTW I proofed a large body of work for another artist using Piezography Pro, and this artist then went to Jon Cone and had 34 prints made 20x30 image size on 24x36 sheet. The printer they used was a 7900 which has ten ink slots. The extra two carts utillized for the light-light shades kinda crushed my Piezography Pro.

The cool thing is that our proofing translated into being print ready files, and the only thing that had to get dialed in was the splitone settings due to the extra shades running on the 7900. These prints were stunning.

BTW nosing-in suggested that these files could of been printed bigger.

Cal
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Old 07-18-2018   #47
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Thank you, Cal!

I did spend time on the Inkjet Mall and related sites yesterday, and their sale, the B&H/Epson rebate, and most of all your tireless, intelligent, experienced advocacy have given me the nudge I wanted to justify this next step, now that I have the plenty-big space and time and resources to do it.

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Side note: I’ll be in NYC next between September 22-October 1, to visit my daughter and all-but-son-law before the November wedding in Mexico, relatives in Massachusetts, and mostly to show Linn (California native, never been east of Michigan) NY and bits of NE. She’ll be packing her RX100, and I’ll probably bring the M-D and RX1 (since she’s used to Sony haptics) and a film RF. Our only scheduled NY events are a Saturday 9/23 event and NY Philharmonic the evening of 9/25, so I hope we can wedge in a lunch meetup between Friday and Tuesday night.
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Old 07-18-2018   #48
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Side note: I’ll be in NYC next between September 22-October 1, to visit my daughter and all-but-son-law before the November wedding in Mexico, relatives in Massachusetts, and mostly to show Linn (California native, never been east of Michigan) NY and bits of NE. She’ll be packing her RX100, and I’ll probably bring the M-D and RX1 (since she’s used to Sony haptics) and a film RF. Our only scheduled NY events are a Saturday 9/23 event and NY Philharmonic the evening of 9/25, so I hope we can wedge in a lunch meetup between Friday and Tuesday night.
Robert,

Let me know your schedule. I have mucho time in my Vacation Bank so I can take some time off of work during the week to do a "Death March." Perhaps I'll take you to the Bronx.

The P7000 with the extra cart slots is a no brainer. You can still do K-7 HD, but this is not so practical because the ink lines and dampers likely use over 110 ml per cart just to do the initial fill. Changing inksets is not practical due to wasting ink.

Interesting to note how little black is needed because it is so black. On my 7800 it is really crazy filling the carts because they are huge. Jon Cone supplies small funnels and literally I poured about half a 700 ml bottle into each cart just to fill them. About every two weeks I have to top-off the Gloss Overcoat.

My most used inks are the mids with Piezography Pro. The cost of Jon Cone ink is about half Epson OEM, but the tone has to come from somewhere, and I say the actual cost of Piezography ends up being about the same or slightly less only because with Piezography you are laying down a lot of ink. The curves of each nozzle have "long tails" so the tone involves a lot of overlapping of shades and blending. That is where all this smoothness comes from.

That 3800 could be a good color printer to have laying around. I'm considering that myself. Using the sale a set of 3880 carts is about $150.00, and if I load up with 700 ml Cone Color Archival pigment inks using this summer sale then the cost per ml is $0.078 (less than 8 cents per ml).

A 700 ml Cone Color Archival Pigment PK-HD inkset is only $720.70 sales price. Shipping is free for orders over $500.00. This is a lot of money, but you get 5600 ml. To me the cost is so low that the ink is almost for free. 5600 ml divided by $720.70 is $0.0777 per ml. Printing color is almost just the cost of the paper.

A complete OEM Epson 110 ml set costs about $450.00 so the cost per ml is about $2.20 per ml. (110ml times 9 carts=990 ml, divided by $450.00)

My friend Christian is a clever guy. With a clogged 3880 he used the die inks which have a solvent like action instead of Piezoflush to maintain and unclog his printer. These die inks are not archival and are more prone to fading, but the ink is cheap. Piezoflush not so cheap.

The carts for my 3880, if I ever kill my printer, can be also used on a P800 with the reset board workaround. Consider recycling the 3800 into a useful color printer.

Cal
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Old 07-18-2018   #49
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I just had a chat with Walker at Inkjet Mall about the Epson P7000 route for Piezography Pro, and his advice, in essence, was: Not Yet. They are still working out the cart-compatibility challenge, and it could be some months before PP has a solution for the newer Epson North America printers.

I was tempted by a B&H open-box P7000 because 1/it had no ink carts (great! spend that money on PP ink/carts), 2/it has free shipping (unlike the other P7000s, where the rebate will be wiped out by California shipping), and 3/it was the price of a P6000.

However, now I'm going to resume the Baby Steps approach, which entails getting the 3800 up and running before spending more on PP inks and carts. More on this later. In the meantime, I can get good prints pretty fast from Berkeley Photo Lab.
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Old 07-18-2018   #50
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Robert:

FWIW, I decided on the P600 because I figured I wasn't handy enough to fix a 3880, 4800 or some of the others. Gambling that flush would be all that's needed was a step too far ahead of my skill and capability levels. I have a P800, but accidentally did a firmware upgrade that defeats Cone's PC-board work-around. So I'm stuck for the moment using it only with OEM inks. There is a firmware backdate software thing out there, and Jon Cone put me on to it, but for now it seemed the wise thing to let others go there.

So I came 'round to the pint size P400 vs. P600 and went with the P600 for paper handling that is supposedly better than the P400. I can print up to 13-inches, but for Piezo I'm using it only for 12-inch wides. Good enough for now and to get printing. Can say it does very nice work. Plenty have used the 1400 series printers for a long time with good results, but the P600 is much better so I'm told.

For now, I think this small P600 is the best of the new Epson's for Piezography until Jon + Walker figure out something better. Until then, if I want big, I'm going to have to shop it out, but at least if you do a 13 X 19 proof on the P600, you should be able to have a very good idea of what you'll get. At least that's my hope.
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Old 07-19-2018   #51
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Thanks for the thoughtful posts above.

I have a tendency to be like a chess player and thinking about three moves ahead. It was about 5 years ago that I decided to go Piezography without having any digital printing experience. Nada.

Back then there was no Walter Blackwell, and the Piezography site required a Masters Degree in Journalism to figure things out. Walter is a great addition, and not only is the support hyper responsive, he did wonders to streamline the data overload that previously existed.

Nothing wrong with getting the 3800 online. It could always be later converted into a color printer. I'm thinking about doing that to my 3880 currently. I have the plastic card with the magic numbers with me today that offers 15 months zero APR and no fees.

I think I'll order more "Gloss Optimizer." When you order ink and if you print glossy you need to double up on the "GO." So if you order a 700 ml set like I do, then make sure you have 2 700ml bottles of "GO" on hand.

Jon Cone reports having used clogged 3880's left on his doorstep, and that with time and Piezoflush they get resurected. My 7800 has the original dampers. The Piezoflush resolulizes dried inks, and because I can't affort to run my big printer year round it gets stored with Piezoflush for many months at a time.

At Piezography they recommend purging out the inks with Piezoflush and letting the printer sit for two full days as a twice a year maintenance.

I also run a humidifier in the winter to maintain a 50% humidity, and I clean my capping station about once a month. These two items help ensure and prevent the print head from drying out.

So I think I will get out of my comfort zone and set up the 3880 as a color printer. I have to replace two carts that I cannibalized from a full set for my 7800 because last time I ran K-7 I had to replace two carts. Luckily I had spares in my "warehouse." I think I will set up the 7800 as a Piezography Pro printer to have the extra capacity, and to have both the 3880 and 7800 both online.

I'm at the point where I will be "proofing" prints for limited editions. The work printing is behind me. I'll be bumping up both the image size and the sheet size. Realize I have PP inks from that very first batch, and I was an early adopter who basically was a "Beta" tester of PP before it was available to the general public. I enjoyed a 15% discount, and I loaded up the truck. I should deplete this stockpile and one way to do that is just run my big printer. I should be able to restock in the fall when Jon Cone has the next big sale.

The 3880 for color will be of good utility and a new learning curve. Hopefully some of the limitations can be unwound.

I'd like to know how big is the inkset that comes with the P7000. It is good to know about the $750.00 rebate. The e-mail blast I got said the new carts with the 700 ml chips as expendables is suppose to be released right around now (mid July).

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Old 07-19-2018   #52
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Before you go to far Cal, you and Robert may wish to join the EpsonWideFormat forum at groups.io where there's discussion of various printers - and their foibles. I've been on this only a week or so and receive it on digest mode, but there's enough problems with the wide format stuff to be patient and know what you're really getting into. Follow the threads!

I got a little banding or something last night for the first time - looks like cross stitches. Have to look that one up. Probably need nozzle cleaning or something.

Will use the "sale" to order more paper and ink!
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Old 07-19-2018   #53
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Before you go to far Cal, you and Robert may wish to join the EpsonWideFormat forum at groups.io where there's discussion of various printers - and their foibles. I've been on this only a week or so and receive it on digest mode, but there's enough problems with the wide format stuff to be patient and know what you're really getting into. Follow the threads!

I got a little banding or something last night for the first time - looks like cross stitches. Have to look that one up. Probably need nozzle cleaning or something.

Will use the "sale" to order more paper and ink!
Skip,

Free shipping on orders over $500.00.

If there are these stipling that run lengthwise on the print that are lines you might be experiencing the dreaded "Pizza wheels." This artifact is due to the primitive/mechanical paper transport that uses these "Star-Wheels" to guide the paper.

On some prints it is bad, on others non-existant. Seems to happen in the blacks and shadows the most, or in areas of heavy ink load.

There are work arounds, but then there are other limitations imposed as basically you compromise the paper transport.

I know for a fact that at Jon Cone Studios they use 7900's that have 10 cart slots. For Piezography Pro having 10 cart slots and having the extra light-light channels is huge. The P7000 offers that 10 cart capability. My thinking is for the longer term that maybe the P7000 being a brand new printer might be the best bet, but perhaps the 7900 could be the better choice, even though it is only available to me as a used printer.

BTW I'm not afraid to unclog a printer with Piezoflush. If you have the opportunity to acquire a clogged printer for free or no money, it is a no brainer. Piezoflush refreshes a printer. Time is your friend.

Thanks for the info. I'll look into the good, the bad, and the ugly. With any printer you should have a spare set of carts to have the capability of storing a printer indefinitely, and for maintenance (twice a year for at least two full days). My 7800 was like a fresh new printer after 6 months of storage.

My 3880 is 5 years old, and for 4 years it got constant heavy usage. My 7800 was 9 years old when I got it, and now it is 12-13 years old and still fresh.

Cal
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Old 07-19-2018   #54
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Thanks for the nods and shoulder-pats and cautions and and encouragements, guys. I'll be pulling out the 3800 today and seeing what it says about its aches and pains and whether it wants to play another season. And keeping the P7000 in my back pocket, until Walker Blackwell (as the Inkjet software/cartridge guru) pronounces it viable in the north American market. I know that Jon Cone is pushing the front edge forward on this, and is optimistic and enthusiastic about a Piezography solution (as he should be), but if the Epson NA biz model is still about disabling their own machines when anyone on this continent runs unauthorized inks, we still have a problem that could be not only frustrating and personally expensive but part of a long, slow, unsatisfying (nickel on the dollar) class action to get Epson NA to behave like Epson Europa and Epson Asia.

On to more entertaining matters!

You want tempting? The Piezography equivalent of a rescue pony for your backyard? Here's a tempting Epson rescue offer in my camera/print gear neighborhood, which necessarily includes San Francisco, 5 hours south:

[url="https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/pho/d/epson-9900-large-format/6633016379.html"]

A low use Piezo-Pro setup 9900 for $900, the cost of the Cone inks etc. already installed. I could drive down today and load it into the Outback. Very tempting (if I could have Walker and Dana from Cone Editions over for a couple of days afterwards to sort out the nozzle/print head issue). But apropos of Skip's citing cautionary stories on EpsonWideFormat, this one must go to someone already experienced not only in PP, but in sussing out clogs and performing workarounds and upgrading bits and pieces. (I'll consider myself lucky and semi-smart if I can bring my 3800 fully online for the cost of fresh Epson carts.)

Still, the lure of that cheap, already PP-converted 9900 makes me think about a whole new chess board, not just several moves ahead in a personal chess match.

It's time for a Left Coast Piezography Pro studio. (Jone Cone, Walker Blackwell, are you listening?) A place where equipment like this can be rescued and restored and earn its keep in Piezography workshops and in making PP prints for folks way west of Vermont seeking a tipping point in their conversion. Where those old 3800s and 3880s and 7800s can be dropped off like old ponies that need re-shoeing and fresh oats. (I'm considering attending the Santa Fe PP workshop, but it would be far easier for me to go to the Bay Area--and, in terms of scaling up, for Piezography to garner huge numbers of West Coast converts, worshippers, and adherents in California).

If any other RFF Piezographers in California are reading this, chime in. I love Vermont from my years in western Massachusetts, and I love small towns, and exotic adventures in learning, and all that, but if Piezography is thriving in Shanghai, why not California too?
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Old 07-19-2018   #55
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Robert,

The 78XX and 98XX are reported to be "user servicable." I was able to download a 600 page service manual for free. Of course I used my work computer and their printer to print it all out.

I think anyone who cam put a Corvette engine in an 84 Jeep Scramble befor they invented the HumVee to basically create an "Urban Assault Vehicle" can likely rebuild and service a 7800.

Also you are underestimating Jon Cone. This is a clever man and perhaps the only person I know who might be as stubborn was my dad who was an illiterate illegal immigrant.

You are also underestimating the level of support by Dana, Wells, Walter, Cathy and of course Jon. I relied on them to address the headaches and in every case issues got addressed.

That 7900 would be tempting.

I still have remorse for not picking up a 9880 that had a clogged print head that was available free for pick-up at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, but the problem is lack of space. The carts for my 7800 will work in a 9880 so it would of cost very little to try and resurrect a printer with a clogged print head. Then if I had the room I would have a printer junkyard for parts.

When one has a reputation for printing it is funny how work finds its way to me. I don't advertise, but I have printed for other artists. I don't want to print for the general public.

Cal
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Old 07-19-2018   #56
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RObert:

I looked long and hard at Craigslist machines. I think you really have to have the luck of Jon Cone... and literally have someone pay you to take these off your hands and already have lots of Piezoflush on hand to really make it work.

I find Jon's notes about having an Epson sold into the Chinese market purchased and then shipped back to the USA intriguing. Briefly looked into finding a P800 on that basis, but think you'd have to get someone like Bellamy Hunt at Japan Camera Hunter to help accomplish this in the real world. And then there's customs... and will they let you do this, or are they going to play into Epson's hands? Dunno. Someone surely DOES know.
Maybe even the folks at B&H?

But a P800 would only jump up to 17-inches and you want 24. Try joining the EpsonWideFormat list and see what you can learn. Painless... but it takes patience (which frankly I don't have a lot of sometimes). Good luck!
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Old 07-19-2018   #57
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Yes, Cal’s point about printing big is resonating with me, in part because I saw an exhibit where the photographer printed a show on Tyvek (the insulation material), and pinned it to the gallery walls. It was a documentary project about marsh degradation and restoration. Some of his images were far bigger than 44” wide. I plan to look him up and have a conversation about his choices and resources and investments.

Not that I want to emulate him to that degree, but because I can already go 17” wide (if my 3800 awakens properly), I’d prefer the next printer to be able to handle (e.g.) 21x9 ratio for landscape or cityscape images—24”x60”—on rollpaper from my Sigma SD Quattro.

If the 3800 doesn’t revive reliably, though, I may choose a less expensive Epson for family/friend color and BW, while awaiting the P7000 PP solution for the BW work I want to produce to my own best (most obsessive/compulsive/damn the torpedoes) standards.
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Old 07-23-2018   #58
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Friday I took advantage of the 17.5% discount using the Summer Sale. Spent $1k on restocking my ink for K-7.

I decided that having Piezography Pro in the 3880 is a great thing due to one-pass glossy printing, speed and convenience. I also have a stockpile of ink for Piezography Pro that also includes a complete 700 ml inkset plus my open stock. Ordered some Gloss Optimizer to restock. Waiting for these sales and bulking up is the smart thing to do.

I figured out that I want to extend the "Neutral" in my splitone from the PK-HD (Black) into Shade 2 to minimize the warmth further and make the splitone more of a three-way for added depth.

My workbook of 12x18 images on 17x22 paper is about 80 pages and now has covers. The weight on a bathroom scale is about 18 pounds, but feels like double that because of the bulk. Mucho impressive.

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Old 10-29-2018   #59
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New K7-HD one pass Monochrome Inkset. When I deplete my current K7 and Piezography pro stockpiles I'll be going full bore K7-HD One-Pass for my 7800.

Also the new carts for P6000, P7000, and P8000 have been all worked out. For Piezography Pro the P7000 with the extra light-light warm and light-light cool is the ultimate.

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Old 07-06-2019   #60
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Going to resurrect this thread. I'm starting my own piezography journey but with a more maker approach. I'll post in this thread as my journey evolves.

Starting with a slightly used Epson Stylus Pro 4800 for $300 CDN.

From InkOwl I've purchased two sets of 3rd party cartridges. One set filled with InkOwl's purge solution to clear the OEM ink from the 4800 ink lines. The 2nd set is to be filled with OEM Matte black ink. I have an expired 700ml Ultrachrome K3 OEM Matte black cartridge I got on eBay for $50.00.

Over on https://www.largeformatphotography.i...s-to-use/page2 there's a good discussion about using a single black ink and cutting it down to get shades of grey. Same as what Paul Roark does with his Eboni-6 inkset.

and this thread https://www.largeformatphotography.i...ht=Piezography

I'm going to start with this OEM expired ink first to test the concept. I also have a new 700ml of Jon Cone's Ultra HD Matte black. This cost more than the Epson Ultra HD Matte black at retail. So testing with expired and inexpensive ink makes sense. Then after I can run the purge solution again to switch to the Cone Ultra Black. Assuming success with the OEM Matte I'll decide if I'll use up that ink first before switching over to the Cone Ultra.

I'm also not sure about the carbon content in the Epson T636800 Matte Black UltraChrome HDR Ink Cartridge. According to Cone, their Ultra HD Matte has the highest carbon levels currently.

As a side note. I had bought the Cone Ultra HD Matte to replace the OEM Matte black on my R3000. There was a noticeable difference between the two. By noticeable I mean to me. A layperson wouldn't notice - obviously I was looking for it.

I consider this to be an experimental project. If it fails, then the cartridges and lines can be cleaned and refilled with OEM inks or a top quality 3rd party ink like Cone or Eboni-6. My investment in ink is low for this stage.

PS. wish I hadn't sold my M9M only because then I could've have a full BW workflow. (excluding the fact that our computer screens aren't true BW).
PPS. also sold the M10. Replaced all cameras with a used A7ii I got on CL for $800 CDN. Kept the Leica glass. Using the voigtlander adapter. Works like a charm for closeups.
PPPS. I miss the ease and simplicity of the Leica rangefinder. Using the A7ii isn't "fun" like the M. But the end result is the print and at that point, the camera you used doesn't matter. Only the results.
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Old 07-15-2019   #61
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MU - how goes the work?

I'm considering upgrading at this point. I've been using 1430 with k6 inks for about year now. I generally like them, but the printer has been giving loads of trouble on the pizza/pin wheel and most of the tricks are not really working for me.

So I'm looking at an Epson R3000 and would either jump to K7 or P2 or the new Pro.
I probobly won't go with the new pro as the new software doesn't sound really ready yet.

What's teh difference between K7 and P2?
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Old 07-16-2019   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filmtwit View Post
MU - how goes the work?

I'm considering upgrading at this point. I've been using 1430 with k6 inks for about year now. I generally like them, but the printer has been giving loads of trouble on the pizza/pin wheel and most of the tricks are not really working for me.

So I'm looking at an Epson R3000 and would either jump to K7 or P2 or the new Pro.
I probobly won't go with the new pro as the new software doesn't sound really ready yet.

What's teh difference between K7 and P2?
FT,

You are wrong about Piezography Pro not being fully developed. That is coming from a user who was invited to be an early adopter, and basically I was a "Beta" tester from the very beginning for Piezography Pro.

I had a 3880 and had Pizzawheel problems. I did all the workarounds. Still had problems when I made prints with ultra heavy ink loads and I would get head scrapes. Pretty much the paper would buckle from the ink load. Realize that I tend to print big and I also tend to take things to the very edge. Of course with my 7800 this never happens.

Of course this was paper dependent. I use Barata coated papers and print only glossy. YMMV.

For me the big deal is to get a floor standing big printer. Mine is a 7800. The reason is that these printers have a superior paper transport. Muffin fans pull a vacuum to hold the paper flat. No pizza wheels. Also IMHO the print quality is also better.

As far as K7 glossy (really K7-HD with the black from Piezography Pro) verses Piezography Pro, is I have extensive experience with both, and I wish I had a second printer to have both.

It really depends on the image and the file which system is better. It also depends on print size to an extent. I find that Piezography Pro has the shadow detail and deeper contrast, but I find that K7-HD has fluffier highlights. I would also say that K7-HD also has a more detailed and vast midrange.

To an extent if the image is best conveyed by contrast PP is likely the better choice, but if you are trying to trancend format and make your small format look like medium format and at times approach large format via vast midrange detail then I would do K7-HD.

Also depends on print size. On big prints the tonality really opens up.

It might be helpful to know that I basically only use two papers: Jon Cone Type 5; and Canson Platine Fibre Rag. Both are Baryta coated and are cotton rag papers. With Piezography Pro pretty much I use the same split-tone settings depending on paper, so unless you print on many different papers the advantage of infinitely variable split tones is kinda un-utilized.

For K7-HD I blend my own split-tone where I have the black from Piezography Pro, warm shadows, and cool highlights. This creates lots of depth, particularly on 20x30 images on 24x36 sheet.

As Klaus stated above in his post, minimize post processing, and maximize IQ at time of image capture if you want to transcend format. I dare say you can approach large format IQ and tonality when you have a perfect exposure and make a clean file. Not many exploit the technology fully IMHO.

For me though I think K7-HD because of being 7 shades of black and also being a two stage printing process offers the best tonality. Because the Gloss Overcoat is applied separately the papers can handle heavy ink loads better. The one pass of Piezography Pro I believe has an ink load limit because of being a one pass system.

Cal
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Old 07-16-2019   #63
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Thanks C.

P-Pro: Since I'm making Dnegs most of the time and site indicates that software is still in Beta form and doesn't have all the curves map'd out, it doesn't sound ready for my needs.

So, K6 or P2?

Printer - as tempting a large format printer is, the reality is that I really do very very little printing at that size. I'm mostly making 5x8 or 11x14 negs that I can directly print from in my little dark room these days. I also don't have the room for prints on my own walls that much bigger then 11x14 (nor do any of my friends). So I'm still looking at medium sized printers as a whole.

I currently have a P600 that I use as my color mode printer for anything color related, and the 1430 that I've been using for the B&W contact negs (no B&W prints straight from the printer either). My printer has developed dreaded pizza wheel problem and really rakes the negs I make. I've done most everything that's suggested to get it stop, but I'm still running into problems I hate to say. Ergo, a look a bigger and better printer.

From what I've been reading the R3000 seems to have the least problems concerning pizza/pin wheels. It also adds more channels of Color/B&W, so I go better then K6.
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Old 07-17-2019   #64
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Update - Id din't pick up a R3000, but found an epson 7800 that was all clogged up (not used for the last 2 years), but came with about $600 in paper. After a week, it's now unclogged and running color for me.

Now, to convert or not convert, that is the question.
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status update
Old 08-04-2019   #65
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status update

The printer conversion went smoothly. You can see results I've posted on my instagram.https://www.instagram.com/only.monochrom/

Even though I downloaded, paid for, and used Roy's QTR and Print tools, I got surprisingly great results from the Epson ABW with DARKER and +10 in highlight, shadow and contrast.

It's a fun journey so far.

Side note, you can find expired 700ml Epson UC-K3 Matte Black Ink for under $100 on eBay. That means I can fill an entire set of refillable cartridges for under $100 including the cost of the base I use to dilute the ink.
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Old 08-04-2019   #66
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So, that 4800 looks like t's done some good here
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update
Old 08-14-2019   #67
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update

As a follow up. Since I don't have a densitometer, spectrophotometer, or working scanner - I haven't been able to create a custom profile. I've found that the profiles for the 4800 that come with QTR are decent. However, using the epson ABW and tweaking the values in the ABW dialogue box actually give me better results. And ABW is pulling ink from all 8 channels. It's all fun to experiment.

Update August 17/19
So obviously ABW Doesn’t pull from all 8 channels- only 5. After more experimenting and finding a couple quadtone RIP videos on YouTube, I’ve got it all working nicely with qtrRIP And pulling from all channels. Getting nice skin tones and amazing blacks.
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Old 08-14-2019   #68
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Update - Id din't pick up a R3000, but found an epson 7800 that was all clogged up (not used for the last 2 years), but came with about $600 in paper. After a week, it's now unclogged and running color for me.

Now, to convert or not convert, that is the question.
FT,

Congrates on securing a working 7800. Way back when I paid $100.00 for mine because the owner was moving back to Japan and wasn't going to ship the printer.

It was a 10 year old printer that only made 1805 prints over its lifespan, but was utilized just enough not to develop any permanent clogs.

A few months ago my 3880 died. I was doing some maintenance cleaning the capping station and something sprung loose. Pretty much I had an exploded diagram like Humpty Dumpty could not be made whole again.

I recycled the carts, chip resetters, and spare maintenance carts to a friend who has a working 3880. No complaints because I used the 3880 very heavily, and I'm surprised it lasted 5 years the way I printed with it.

You should know that the 78XX and 98XX printers are the last of the Epsons that are user servicable. I found the service manual online as a free download. Of course I used the printer at work to print out the about 600 pages.

Earlier this year in the spring I loaded ink and began printing, but I had some problems with intermittent clogs and banding. Previously I put the printer into storage mode with Piezoflush, and in the past this cured the problems, but this time I only got a few good prints before intermittent clogging returned.

So now this printer is about 13-14 years old and even though it was not used so much in its prior life, I kinda used it heavily. Understand that in one year I spent over $10K in paper and ink taking advantage of sales/discounts.

At this point my 7800 sits loaded with Piezoflush, I have on hand a full set of Epson OEM "Dampers," and I'm waiting for cooler weather when I will print again to install them.

Dampers are these filters that accumulate deposits that are right before the print head. Jon Cone recommends changing them every 2 years on a heavily used printer: mine are the original factory OEM's.

You have a maintenance menue that will give you the status of the carraige, capping station, print head, ink pumps... Pretty much you have the information to show how much life is left in each system.

On my 7800 I have either **** or ***** where ***** is new or still fresh. Basically at worse I only have utilized 20% of the life one system, and all the others remain fresh.

The Jon Cone carts for the 7800 are oversized. Pretty much I removed the cart doors because you no longer can close the doors. To fill a cart is about 350 ml, so you litterally pour from 700ml bottle into a funnel.

About every two weeks I topped up my carts. If you print glossy the Gloss Overcoat or Gloss Optimizer depending on if you print K7-HD or Piezography Pro gets drained the most.

Also know that rolled paper has cost savings. The paper transport is so much better than any desktop printer that you will soon be spoiled.

If you have to replace the printhead it is $1k for the part, but also know that the 7800, 7880, 9800, and 9880 are all known to have long print head life. My print head is **** meaning I have 80% left.

Cal
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Old 08-21-2019   #69
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Cal,

Right now, I'm keeping it on color as I'll be heading to Vermont in a few weeks for one of Jon's everything in one week long classes.

1) The printer also came with extra empty over sized carts. I'll use those, but looking at Jon's sight, when converting for this printer it looks like recomednded is 110ml ink, but those carts are what 350ml or are they 700ml? Either way, that's a lot of ink in comparison to what I had been using with the 1430 (30ml or 60ml), which I bought maybe 1-2 refills a month with.

2) I'm hoping to see if I an't get better discount in person for inks. I'm not really going to hold my breath here either, but it's not cheap to convert this printer over B&W.

btw - how do you look up how many prints have been made?

Thanks,
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Old 08-21-2019   #70
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Cal,

Right now, I'm keeping it on color as I'll be heading to Vermont in a few weeks for one of Jon's everything in one week long classes.

1) The printer also came with extra empty over sized carts. I'll use those, but looking at Jon's sight, when converting for this printer it looks like recomednded is 110ml ink, but those carts are what 350ml or are they 700ml? Either way, that's a lot of ink in comparison to what I had been using with the 1430 (30ml or 60ml), which I bought maybe 1-2 refills a month with.

2) I'm hoping to see if I an't get better discount in person for inks. I'm not really going to hold my breath here either, but it's not cheap to convert this printer over B&W.

btw - how do you look up how many prints have been made?

Thanks,
FT,

The Jon Cone carts hold 350ml. I suggest buying 700ml bottles (largest). The 7800 is a thirsty printer... Also buy two 700 ml bottles of Gloss Overcoat because you will have to refill this about twice as much if you print glossy like me.

Literally when filling a 7800 you will pour half a 700 ml bottle via a funnel into each cart.

When I bought a set of carts and a gallon of Piezoflush to store my "new" 7800, it set me back nearly $500.00, and pretty much not much Piezoflush was leftover. Perhaps 500-700 ml extra.

The way to save is to bulk up when Piezography has a sale. This happens a few times a year. To stay informed sign up for their newsletter to get the e-mail blasts that include the sales.

Understand that 13x17 prints are small by Piezography standards, and that Piezography will encourage you to print big, and this is where the resolution will get displayed and the tonality.

110 ml will easily be consumed by instituting an initial fill alone.

I had to refill my Gloss Overcoat every two weeks. Once loaded with ink I printed several times a week; either 17x20 sheets or 24x36. At the same time I would top off the 7 shades of black as maintenance.

Cal
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Old 08-21-2019   #71
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Cal,

btw - how do you look up how many prints have been made?

Thanks,
FT,

I'll have to look this up tonight in the operating manual.

Basically turn on the printer, no computer hookup is needed, and you scrool through the menu. One setting will give/provide all the maintenance status of each system in terms of asteriches, where 5 (*****) is like new. **** means 20% has been used and 80% remains.

Somewhere in the menu is how many prints have been made, but this does not denote the size of the prints. Since I have mucho 20x30 images on 24x36 sheets you have to realize that big prints mean heavy use.

I print unidirectional for higher IQ, so a single printing of a 20x30 image on 24x36 sheet takes about 40 minutes for one pass. With K7-HD a second pass is required to apply the gloss overcoat, but this can be performed in bidirectional mode without any sacrifice in IQ. Takes about 20 minutes.

Of course there is a delay between the first printing and the second to allow for drying.

I'll check the owner's manual tonight.

Cal
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Old 08-21-2019   #72
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Quote:
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Cal,

Right now, I'm keeping it on color as I'll be heading to Vermont in a few weeks for one of Jon's everything in one week long classes.
...
Thanks,

Congrats, you are in for a treat in regards to quality and dedication.
Be prepared to be spoiled by the results that they can achieve. Nothing else will do after you've seen what is possible and what difference it makes. I have not taken a class but was up there for a studio day of Piezography printing. 20x30 on 24x36 paper. I brought my own Hahnemuehle FA Baryta. I worked with Dana that day. Unfortunately she left the company last week, they had a farewell paella feast. I wish her good luck in her new endevours.

I keep my fingers crossed that the 1 week class will be as stunning an experience as my studio day of printing.

A great little restaurant not too far from Topsham,VT:
The Little Grille's Comida Mexicana
55 Smith St, Woodsville, NH 03785, USA

(Best Burger I have had in my life: CAMILA'S FAMOUS BRAZILIAN BURGER).
Do keep us posted about your experience.
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Old 08-22-2019   #73
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FT,

Turn on the printer and depress the "Menu" button. Press the "Down" arrow until "Printer Status" is highlighted. Repeatedly press the "Down" button to scroll to "Total Prints," then press "Menu." When done depress the "Left" arrow.

To check other printer parts/systems press the "Down" arrow to highlight "Service Life," then press "Menu" to scroll through the status and available life of the carriage motor, paper feed motor, printhead, cleaning unit, and pressure motor.

Press "Pause" to exit the menu.

At this point my now 14-15 year old printer needs to have the dampers replaced. This set me back $350.00 for Epson OEM dampers and not cheap Chinese versions. (I can say this because I'm Chinese.) Everything but my printhead registers ***** except my printhead that is ****. ***** denotes 100%-80% so even though I made mucho many big prints and heavily used my printer for a few years all but the print head is still kinda fresh.

BTW a new printhead costs about $1k.

Cal
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Old 08-26-2019   #74
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At this point my now 14-15 year old printer needs to have the dampers replaced. This set me back $350.00 for Epson OEM dampers and not cheap Chinese versions. (I can say this because I'm Chinese.) Everything but my printhead registers ***** except my printhead that is ****. ***** denotes 100%-80% so even though I made mucho many big prints and heavily used my printer for a few years all but the print head is still kinda fresh.

BTW a new printhead costs about $1k.

Cal
I'll definitly check and see how worn my printer is as soon as get home from work. Thanks.

It sounds like sourcing more used 7800 is way cheaper then buying any of the parts for it?
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Old 08-26-2019   #75
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I'll definitly check and see how worn my printer is as soon as get home from work. Thanks.

It sounds like sourcing more used 7800 is way cheaper then buying any of the parts for it?
FT,

These printers are like pre-1972 cars without pollution/emission controls. Also built like pick-up trucks.

My 14 year old printer is basically still has plenty of service life left in it. Changing the dampers is the first real service other than cleaning the capping station and the bouts of storage with Piezoflush.

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Old 08-30-2019   #76
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Time to pull out the plastic card with the "magic numbers" and load up the truck.

I received an E-mail blast that Piezography is having their Labor Day Sale.

"Load up," I say and think of all the money you'll save. LOL.

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Old 08-30-2019   #77
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Time to pull out the plastic card with the "magic numbers" and load up the truck.

I received an E-mail blast that Piezography is having their Labor Day Sale.

"Load up," I say and think of all the money you'll save. LOL.

Cal
So is Bostwyck and Sullivan. Ugh.
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Old 11-19-2019   #78
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Jon Cone and Piezography is having their big Black Friday sale. Time to load up the truck.

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Old 11-20-2019   #79
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Great News! I just posted this very question on the community forum about any upcoming sales for BF. I've been a Cone Color & Piezography user for a number of years and for some reason I don't get these notices.
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Old 11-20-2019   #80
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Great News! I just posted this very question on the community forum about any upcoming sales for BF. I've been a Cone Color & Piezography user for a number of years and for some reason I don't get these notices.
K,

I always wait for these sales.

"Load up the truck," I say.

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