dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
heh.. all I know is.. we're gosh darn lucky that Leica cameras are not a staple or commodity like rice or oil.. 
Dave
Dave
Olsen
Well-known
It really doesn't matter why the Leica M is going up. Once it's priced beyond what you can afford, the reasons are moot. The M8 will (has) become a camera for people of some financial means. It's not an entry level camera for a photography student. It's for people with lots of money to blow. And there are plenty of those around.
Ray,
A M8 costs 8,000 $ (20% sales tax included) here in Norway today. - And we have no rebate campaign I know of. Can I afford that? No.
Still, the M8 (+WATE w/frankenfinder) is the only Leica gear I have bought new. Ever. I bought the gear tax free in Singapore 1 1/2 year ago for far less i can buy it for now here in Norway. The rest of the Leica gear I have I have bought 2.hand - like my MP, Noctilux, 35 mm 2,0.
Leica has always been the camera gear that 'everybody' buys 2.hand here in Norway. Because it is so expensive. (- The only worldy consumers that found them 'cheap' were the Americans. Once). The first Leicas, of any numbers, arrived here in Norway with the German occupying forces in April 1940. - Starved German soldiers swapped them for a kilo of butter in 1945. They have never been more expensive...
For us Europeans, despite our strong currency and strong growth of salaries, we still have to pay a hefty tax bill - before we can buy a M8. Over here it comes with health care and a pension included, in a way. That's why all these airliners going from Europe to USA, these days, packed with European consumers that flock into B & H to buy cheap photo gear.
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tbarker13
shooter of stuff
I too hate to see the price of this camera go higher. For a couple of reasons:
1) I want as many people as possible to have one, to create further demand for lenses, etc.
2) I want Leica to still be making digital rangefinders in 20 years.
I worry that they run the risk of pricing themselves out of the user and professional markets. I just hope they know what they are doing.
Of course this may be the point where someone is going to chime in about RFers not understanding business enough to offer advice to Leica. But judging from the company's financial situation over the past decade, that argument doesn't hold much weight.
We are talking about a company struggling to transform itself into something that can thrive in today's world. And I'm sure just about everyone on this forum is rooting for them.
1) I want as many people as possible to have one, to create further demand for lenses, etc.
2) I want Leica to still be making digital rangefinders in 20 years.
I worry that they run the risk of pricing themselves out of the user and professional markets. I just hope they know what they are doing.
Of course this may be the point where someone is going to chime in about RFers not understanding business enough to offer advice to Leica. But judging from the company's financial situation over the past decade, that argument doesn't hold much weight.
We are talking about a company struggling to transform itself into something that can thrive in today's world. And I'm sure just about everyone on this forum is rooting for them.
Olsen
Well-known
Tim,
They run the risk of going bankrupt....
They run the risk of going bankrupt....
retow
Well-known
I think you hit the nail. Reading from the outside there are enough reasons to doubt that they have a clear concept and strategy of how to grow their business to eventually succeed and prosper in a tough market place. And the global slow down of economic growth is not going to make things any easier in the foreseeable future.
retow
Well-known
It really doesn't matter why the Leica M is going up. Once it's priced beyond what you can afford, the reasons are moot. The M8 will (has) become a camera for people of some financial means. It's not an entry level camera for a photography student. It's for people with lots of money to blow. And there are plenty of those around.
Rest assured that even people with a little money have some brain, sometimes. That usually is the reason for them being affluent.
Anyway, For many RFF members, I believe, it is not about of how much money they have, but rather how much they are willing to spend for something. What is the average cost of one roll of film, developped and stored, whether digitalised or not - about USD 20, I guess? Do the math and you will be surprised that for the equivalent cost of about 200 colour rolls, developped and stored (don't forget the scanner) you can buy a used M8!
BigSteveG
Well-known
As long as people pay, the madness will continue. Anyone willing to fork over $5,500 will easily pay $6-7k. Leicas aren't really for pro or student photogs anymore. They are luxury items.
TJV
Well-known
Man, I didn't think my post would cause so much debate! Then again, I should have guessed.
I don't have a problem with Leica being a prestige brand at all. Generally speaking, I'm prepared to skimp, save and wait so I can afford to buy quality things that I will enjoy using. I guess what's happening with the M8 though, because of the nature of what it is, a "consumer electronic device," is against the trends of most computer / technology. As technology evolves, todays hi-tech product will be cheaper tomorrow because there's something else better around the corner.
At the end of the day though I guess it's supply and demand. I don't know how much Leica build vs what they sell, but if they are can't keep up with demand then they might as well put the price up.
As for what's around the corner, I know of one thing coming but don't know of specifics or specs. Hopefully a few things will become clearer at Photokina.
I don't have a problem with Leica being a prestige brand at all. Generally speaking, I'm prepared to skimp, save and wait so I can afford to buy quality things that I will enjoy using. I guess what's happening with the M8 though, because of the nature of what it is, a "consumer electronic device," is against the trends of most computer / technology. As technology evolves, todays hi-tech product will be cheaper tomorrow because there's something else better around the corner.
At the end of the day though I guess it's supply and demand. I don't know how much Leica build vs what they sell, but if they are can't keep up with demand then they might as well put the price up.
As for what's around the corner, I know of one thing coming but don't know of specifics or specs. Hopefully a few things will become clearer at Photokina.
The big problem is that "what's coming up" is apparently not an M9. And the M8 has probably sold about all is going to be sold.
pachuco
El ****
heh.. all I know is.. we're gosh darn lucky that Leica cameras are not a staple or commodity like rice or oil..
Dave
Word.
victoriapio
Well-known
Ahhhh, but professionals also pay what , $7,000 for the 1dsmk3, $7,700 for the 600mm F4IS, and at least a $1,000 for any L lens. So would the top of the line Canon bodies and lenses be called "luxury items?"
No, it is just that some pros shoot with the best, whether the top Canons or Leicas
Pros can shoot with much less expensive equipment but many choose not to, same with Leica. I am not defending their price increase other than saying "supply and demand." When people stop buying the M8 either the price will drop or there will be no more Leica. Sotp buying the camera if you do not like the price.
This is what is scary, what the heck will the M9 COST?
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Winfreid Scherle ... the vice president of the Zeiss camera and lens group said this when questioned after the release of the Z1 Ikon rangefinder ..... !
Q: There are rumors that Zeiss will eventually have its own digital rangefinder camera body that will accept the M mount lenses. True or false? Will it be Cosina-made? Full 24 x 36mm sensor?
A: At Carl Zeiss, we can imagine such a camera. But we feel that is not the right time to introduce such a camera now. Today digital technology is still developing fast and the initial value of a digital camera is lost in quite a short time. Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers and will therefore require a high level of maturity of products before we can justify to offer them to our customers. At the time we introduce such a camera we want to be sure that the owner has invested in a long term value.
1. It is much too early to determine a manufacturer for such a camera.
2. Full 24 x 36 is, as far as we see today, for a variety of reasons the preferred sensor size of most serious rangefinder photographers.
Keep the faith brothers and sisters ... and cross your fingers and toes of course!
Some people contributing to this thread seem to attach an angelic innocence to Leica and would believe that they are a totally benign entity in this price spiral!
Q: There are rumors that Zeiss will eventually have its own digital rangefinder camera body that will accept the M mount lenses. True or false? Will it be Cosina-made? Full 24 x 36mm sensor?
A: At Carl Zeiss, we can imagine such a camera. But we feel that is not the right time to introduce such a camera now. Today digital technology is still developing fast and the initial value of a digital camera is lost in quite a short time. Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers and will therefore require a high level of maturity of products before we can justify to offer them to our customers. At the time we introduce such a camera we want to be sure that the owner has invested in a long term value.
1. It is much too early to determine a manufacturer for such a camera.
2. Full 24 x 36 is, as far as we see today, for a variety of reasons the preferred sensor size of most serious rangefinder photographers.
Keep the faith brothers and sisters ... and cross your fingers and toes of course!
Some people contributing to this thread seem to attach an angelic innocence to Leica and would believe that they are a totally benign entity in this price spiral!
retow
Well-known
I'm amazed how widely missunderstood the "supply an demand equation" seems to be. If volume demand for a product exceeds supply or grows faster than supply price increases work. Leica tries to counter revenue shortfalls resulting from slowing volume demand for new M8s with increasing its prices! This is exactly a recipe for failure!
sam_m
Well-known
So one dealer in NZ and another in Korea have increased their prices? Is there anything that says this is not simply a local issue, unrelated to Leica Germany? The price of the M8 in Australia is not set as it is in the US, you can find it advertised online in Australian stores for $6,500, $6,999 and even $7,500, I think the retail store can mark up the wholesale price at what ever they wish.
allen_a_george
Established
Annual Report
Annual Report
Annual Report
http://www.leica-corporate.com/investor_relations/annual_reports/2008/index.html
From the 3 month 2008/2009 report, they are losing their shirts compared to last year and are praying that whatever they show at Photokina will at least help them to break even.
infrequent
Well-known
@ray nalley - ah...this is how rumours start my friend... ; )
"Leica DigiCL to be announced at Photokina."
"Leica DigiCL to be announced at Photokina."
TJV
Well-known
I moonlight in the photo retail industry where it's my job to know what I'm making per sale so I don't get fired. I know for a fact the price has gone up here but I'm not for a second suggesting that it's because someone is pulling a swift one. The margins are very slim, more so than with Japanese brands. Most likely the increase here is down to the global economy and isolated location. I also know that existing stock on hand will (should) be sold at the old price, seeing as the margins overall will remain the same. I'm lucky to have a very honest and trustworthy shop to deal with locally so I don't have to import via online shops. I repay good and honest service with repeat business. Besides, the exchange rate and potential warranty hassles would even it all out anyway. If I had the money, and considering my soul destroying hassles with pro labs handling my film developing of late, I'd seriously consider buying an M8 to use with my three M lenses. Ironically, I sold my original M8 because it wasn't reliable. I thought I'd fix that by going back to film. Now I can't trust any labs in town and have to send all my E6 work out to another city. Which costs big time (like the M8!) Talk about rock and a hard place!
KM-25
Well-known
You will be happy to find out that I use my LHSA MP-3 kit nearly daily. The guy I bought it off of got it for $8,000 new, sold it to me completely unused for $5,000, body, Leicavit and 50 1.4 asph.
Now as far as Leica raising prices...? I looked at the price of my three Leica lenses the other day and about passed out. 4 grand for the 28/2 and 35/1.4 asph and nearly $3,600 for the regular 50/1.4 asph.
If Leica keeps this up, they are done by 2010.
John Camp
Well-known
The dollar is now rising against the Euro and other currencies, and has been for several weeks, and most folks seem to think this is just the beginning - the US is coming out of a recession as Europe begins to look weaker. So more changes may be on the way.
However, I wonder if it's possible that Leica is no longer manufacturing the M8, and is selling out the last remaining stock at the best prices it can manage? That is, if they could project that they could sell out everything they have for $5500, and not have to worry about reduced sales downstream because, for them, there *will be* no downstream sales, then maybe they would do that. This could be done as a runup to Photokina, where they introduce something new. Other photo companies often dump stock before a new model, because they will be hard to sell after a new model is introduced, but that tactic involves companies with thousands of outstanding cameras. If Leica were trying to get rid of only a few hundred or a couple of thousand remaining bodies, and could project a full sell-through at $5500, then why not?
I also wouldn't be surprised if a few collectors are beginning to sense that something is coming to an end, and that an M8 in new condition will be a rare and collectible camera in the near future. I think that might also be holding up the prices of the Epson R-D1, a camera with an outmoded 6mp sensor that still goes from better than $2,000 from Japanese camera stores.
JC
However, I wonder if it's possible that Leica is no longer manufacturing the M8, and is selling out the last remaining stock at the best prices it can manage? That is, if they could project that they could sell out everything they have for $5500, and not have to worry about reduced sales downstream because, for them, there *will be* no downstream sales, then maybe they would do that. This could be done as a runup to Photokina, where they introduce something new. Other photo companies often dump stock before a new model, because they will be hard to sell after a new model is introduced, but that tactic involves companies with thousands of outstanding cameras. If Leica were trying to get rid of only a few hundred or a couple of thousand remaining bodies, and could project a full sell-through at $5500, then why not?
I also wouldn't be surprised if a few collectors are beginning to sense that something is coming to an end, and that an M8 in new condition will be a rare and collectible camera in the near future. I think that might also be holding up the prices of the Epson R-D1, a camera with an outmoded 6mp sensor that still goes from better than $2,000 from Japanese camera stores.
JC