Been there, done that

[WDPictures]

I like pie.

Perfection.

 

[wlewisiii]

So when I say, "Buy an MP if you can afford it," how much is that worth to younger and/or poorer people?

Hey, I resemble that

I take that to mean buy the best you can get. Push the envelope, stretch yourself, etc, but get the best you possibly can get. Once you have money to spare, that will, for most of us, be a MP. For me, keeping my son fed, dressed & schooled will prevent one for the next couple of decades That's ok, that's the choice we made when we adopted him.

I may not be able to get a MP & a 'cron on a whim, OTOH, I do currently own some truely fine cameras and glass. See the .sig for specifics, but in the end I can do 99% of what I want to in photography without problem and, when the phase of the moon is right & I sacrifice a chicken I can produce results no one will know aren't from a Leica & a 'cron.

Right now, if I had the money, I'd rather get a nice postwar Rolleiflex with a Tessar and burn Arista.EDU Ultra & Reala until I hit the floor flopping like a dying cockroach... :angel:

Thanks,

William

 

[Beemermark]

Well, I'm 19 and if someone was to tell me to buy an MP, I would simply explain that I'd rather spend that money on glass. I don't think that an age gap has to mean that we can't communicate in a straightforward fashion. Although I can hadly see myself offering that advice (buy an MP) i can see why someone else would, and i respect that and under the right circumstances, I agree with it.

When offering advice without knowing everything about someone, we tend to give generalized answers, i know that what i try and what many try to do is this: answer the question posed, offer a couple of different perspectives on that advice and then suggest another idea altogether: "or you could not get the MP and get an R3M and an R4M with a 25mm, a 35mm biogon and a 90 elmarit..." or whatever.

Roger, a we all know is very knowledgeable in the field of many things rangefinder and i can say that his advice is always welcome. I take his advice as the advice of someone with experience, but also as someone who has had the chance to have his hands full with fancy gear. I would like to flatter myself with the idea that I may provide a different point of view that is equally valid in the effort to give members the largest variety of advice possible from as diverse a group of people as possible.

Proof positive that age has nothing to do with intelligence, reason or good choices.

 

[amateriat]

People don't ask for advice they ask for confirmation of their opinions.

This is often true...

Roger,

When I was just 21 I knew everything there was to know about photography, more than that even. It had much to do with me being 21, and me being me, I suspect.

Now, that's a case of "been there, done that!"

Now I'm even older than you and beside me on my shelves is a book I treasure, and I suspect I'd have treasured if I were 21 again. Its called "The Black and White Handbook".

I loaned this to a young fellow a few years back, and he finally returned it to me last week. He responded to the book by keeping it for a year or so and buying a film camera.

For me, it was David Vestal's The Craft of Photography, over thirty years ago. I've treasured it ever since.

The biggest kick I get these days is when I'm out using a 'vintage camera' and some youngster (19 to 39) comes up and genuinely is interested in the camera. Sometimes they say, 'why do you use it?' and I just say 'I like it.' Sometimes a follow up, 'why do you use film?' I just say, 'I like it.' This could be the start of something great, don't do, own or think anything unless you can say, 'I just like it.'

That works for me!.


- Barrett

 

[Soeren]

Roger
Ok its taken out of contekst but I still find that particular advise to be of little use.
Leice may be longer lasting and better quality both mechanically and optically but I think it will do little to a persons photography that a e.g. Bessa wont do. may I refer to the two articles linked below.

http://www.rogerandfrances.com/howmany.html

http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps%20save.html

Though there are many things a leica will do well and some it will do very well it is not as versatile as a SLR (long lenses, macro, portraits etc) and even the SLR wont be king in all kind of subjects. The better advice will be pointing out which will do what the youngster want not you as the "Guru" says he/she want The MP may be THE CAMERA but that does not mean its the right next step for the hopeful young star photog in spe. The right advise may be "Get a TLR-" or "Get a LF camera-" "- If you can afford it"
Best regards

 

[BobPS]

I am increasingly uncertain of the value of my advice, from the viewpoint of nearly 59, to someone who is 39 or 29 or worse still 19. Yes, I've owned more Leicas than I can remember; but what I need, want or can afford today may differ widely from what is best for someone younger.

Dear Roger,

I'm in the age range you mentioned, almost 40 and as a guy who is new to RF world I find your advice and insights here on the RFF and on your web site are valuable. Keep 'em coming.

So when I say, "Buy an MP if you can afford it," how much is that worth to younger and/or poorer people?

I don't take that kind of advice as an offense, even though at the time being an MP is just too expensive for me. I see the advice as a kind of assurance.

Since an MP is expensive, if I plan on buying it, then I would need assurance or perhaps confirmation that I won't waste my hard earned money by buying an MP, that the MP is worth it.

Bob

 

[Roger Hicks]

As so often, I find that I did not explain myself well in the original post, made just before I went to bed.

By a combination of luck, judgement and hard work (mostly luck) I am better off than I have ever been. I can afford things I could never have afforded when I was younger, and that really was the point.

When I was a student I'd sometimes choose betwen a pint of beer and a copy of Amateur Photographer as my luxury for the week (all right, maybe I could afford two luxuries per week, but I'd spread 'em out so they were three or four days apart). When I was 25 and unemployed I sold a lot of the possessions I'd accumulated up to then in order to help me survive.

I used to haunt the camera stores and I loved finding a Zorkii 4K for a few pounds, even if I had to repair it. I bought and sold a lot of gear in my 20s; it was a significant percentage of my income.

But that was then and this is now. The advice I could give then (based on experience) was a lot more limited than the advice I can give now, because I now have a lot more experience. But the advice I can give now is of limited use to some people. I coudn't have followed it myself at (say) 29, let alone 19.

Hence what Richard sees as my hang-up about money. I didn't have any, for a very long time. Now I'm quite well off, though nothing like as well-off as many members of this forum. For example, I still don't have central heating, and it would be too expensive to install in my present house. So I get cold in winter. Or wear extra clothes, or huddle around the fire, or run up the electricity bill heating the bedroom, which is above the room with the wood fire in it.

And yet... In my 20s I once lived on muesli for a week in order to pay for a Leica accessory I particularly wanted, and I've never sold an M-series Leica out of financial desperation, though I have sold them to fund the purchase of more (usually newer) Leica gear. Partly this is because they are part of the way I earn my living, and a workman can't afford to sell his tools. Again, this colours my advice as against the advice you'd get from a hobbyist photographer.

Which was my original point. All these 'what should I buy' threads are so specific to one individual's circumstances and wealth and priorities that I wonder if any of us can give really useful advice.

Tashi delek,

R.

 

[Soeren]

Thats why I pointed toward the two articles on your website. Giving more general advise, pointing in some direction and talk about what this and that will or wont do or which type of gear is more suited for a specific kind of photography has helped me more than the specific "should I......" threads even if I have some part in posting those Q's myself. I especially like your " Quality plateau" idea.
Best regards

 

[NathanJD]

my advice

To my mind, together the 2 most important words you have used in this whole thread Roger.

Think about it for 1 moment; MY advice - it's what we all give on this or any other forum online or otherwise and it's what we're all able to bring to this particular table. It is up to the advice taker to weigh up their needs and the credentials of those who offer advice and then decide what to take from it.

We each have different needs, wants and circumstances that overlap the needs, wants and circumstances of other individuals in varying degrees.

It’s not about how much money those who offer their advice have or where they live or what they shoot, but it is about general consensus and relevance to those who ask and only they know the level of such.

My point? There is no absolute answer in any subject except mathematics.

 

[Soeren]

Ehh no I don't give advise, I offer my opinion.
Best regards

 

[Rayt]

When I was in school I had absolutely no money for photography. I really had to sacrifice to get an FM2 and two lenses. And then it was about eating well or buy film and processing. I learned about Leicas from reading Shutterbug and had always wanted one but thought the advertised prices in the B&H catalog were just insane. Even twenty years ago a 50/2 Summicron was $900 if I recall. My car cost me $900. Now I have school age kids and wonder what sacrifices I need to make again to put them through college. As much as I like or even love the Leicas they are just cameras and there are more important things.

 

[Rayt]

People don't ask for advice they ask for confirmation of their opinions.

Ain't that truth. Worse is when they ask what you think of their photography and then get really upset when you tell them.

 

[Sonnar2]

The biggest kick I get these days is when I'm out using a 'vintage camera' and some youngster (19 to 39) comes up and genuinely is interested in the camera. Sometimes they say, 'why do you use it?' and I just say 'I like it.' Sometimes a follow up, 'why do you use film?' I just say, 'I like it.' This could be the start of something great, don't do, own or think anything unless you can say, 'I just like it.'

True, very true.

And people like different things for one or another, very individual reason.

You just can't give general advice for buying equipment. It depends too much on the person, his background, needs, experience and intensions. And of course, money.

All you can say is that the MP is probably the better camera than, say, a M4-2. That can be judged at base of specs. But if you LIKE a Nikon S2 better than a Canon P, or the results of non-aspherical type of Summicron better than a ASPH. one, that can't be judged this way.

To most younger people nowadays, you stated correctly that a Leica MP is out of the real world anyway. To the very small part of people who *probably* can effort a MP, I would say: Don't try it. Don't stay at home saving money for any GEAR. Go out with the best camera you can buy immediately, i.e a Canon QX or even a Holga, expend your money for trips to interesting places, have fun, make pictures. It will do more good in life and probably make you a better photographer (if this is your intention).

 

[notturtle]

I think some people have confused a simple, honest post with an opportunity for socio-economic debate.... but a person who can afford a Leica or whatever it may be (Mamiya 7II/Hassy?) should not necessarily decide not to because other people cannot.

Roger, if your advice is based on what you think the person would get along with and work well with, then your advice is just as valid now as it was 30 years ago. I am very sure you are not advising out of a desire to make the person more like you. I believe there are a lot of opportunities where the older ways have not only quaint appeal to the younger generation, but real positive dividends. nothing everything that comes under the banner or progress is good for a person, practically or in terms of their emotional well being.

As you know Roger, I am 33 and shoot a Leica. On average, it is the best tool for me under most of the circumstances I shoot, but then again I am not an adrenaline chasing DSLR jazzy angle shooting cyber ninja. I never will be. for some that approach and kit works, but for me it would work about as well as handing the cyber ninja my Leica...

Kit advice is useful as a way of shortening lists, but nothing beats hands on experience under real world creative shooting conditions. Wandering about NY city at lunch time with a camera on a test shoot for half an hour will not help you that much if you are going to be shooting Kenya's wildlife from a vehicle at dawn and dusk. I found myself learning vertically in the last two years to make things work where I am. Techniques and kit I used elsewhere simply did not work here as I had hoped. I had to redesign my approach from the ground up with dramatic improvements.

I do think people who are offering advice ought to check their experience in the paricular niche being advised on (if indeed it is a niche). A lot of people are serial internet advisors and are welllllll out of their depth when it comes to the real deal. They enjoy the subject and it excites them (fair enough) but do not know when to admit to the limits of their REAL experience.

At the expense of making myself very unpopular I will use a military/security analogy. There are the poseurs who own lots of flash gear and preen in front of the mirror. They look like a superhero and an unknowing person would think they could fly at 30,000ft with their new Oakley shades. However, the experienced eye can see glaring errors in how they have put their equipment together, where things are, what is not going to be useful , such that if every put under real pressure, they encounter severe (possibly fatal) difficulties. The machine parts are there, just not assembled in the right order so as to actually work. Kinda like an engine having its pistons in upside down.

You are not one of them Roger. You advise based on experience and having read a couple of your books the objectivity is evident. Honest advice with the recipient's best interests as a guide will never be amiss as long as the offerror knows the limits of their experience. I for one, could have done with a half hour chat with an experienced photojournalist/documentary photographer on bags, kit carriage, straps, monopods etc some time ago. would have saved a bit of time. I am 33, but I am sure someone who cut their teeth in the 60s would have offered better advice for a B&W RF film user than most people shooting a DSLR today.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Thats why I pointed toward the two articles on your website. Giving more general advise, pointing in some direction and talk about what this and that will or wont do or which type of gear is more suited for a specific kind of photography has helped me more than the specific "should I......" threads even if I have some part in posting those Q's myself. I especially like your " Quality plateau" idea.
Best regards

Dear Soeren,

I should have thanked you earlier for posting those links, which are indeed the exact opposite of 'Buy an MP'.

'How many cameras?' (http://www.rogerandfrances.com/howmany.html) suggests that once you're hooked on photography, it's a slippery slope but there are all kinds of cheap cameras that are fun.

'Saving money' (http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps save.html) is about where it does and doesn't make sense to economize, complete with recommendations for silly-cheap cameras.

The latter is where we talk about the 'quality plateau' -- the point at which the photographer matters more than the camera. There is a level where buying a better camera will make you a better photographer, or more accurately, will give you pictures closer to what you hoped for, but it's surprisingly low: an old Nikkormat with a 50/2 Nikkor is more than good enough.

After that, the only reason to buy a 'better' camera or lens is because you like it more, or possibly because in certain speciaized applications, spending more money may make life easier (e.g. ultra-fast lenses, camera movements, whatever).

Perhaps the answer is that I should try to put more effort into www.rogerandfrances.com, and stop trying to answer excessively specific questions on the basis of insufficient information. "What camera should I buy" depends too much on how much money you've got, what sort of pics you like to shoot, and what your priorities are.

Even so, I can't help feeling that an awful lot of the time, the advice on this forum boils down to 'Buy a Konica IIIa, it's just as good as a Leica' (patently untrue for many applications, though equally, there are a fw where it's actually better) or 'Buy a Leica M6ttl, it's just as good as an MP', which to me is equally patently untrue unless you are a hopeless devotee of the M6ttl, or 'buy an M6ttl, it's nearly as good as an MP, but a lot cheaper', which is clearly true but involves buying second-best if an MP is what you really want.

'Buy an MP if you can afford it' is a sort of counsel of perfection, but it is sincere advice from someone who (a) has tried an MP as well as most of the other choices, (b) can afford it, for a given value of 'afford', and (c) will say without hesitation that you can take excellent pictures with many other cameras, which are a much better buy if you are so overstretched by buying the MP that you are constantly worried sick in case you scratch it, never mind break it.

Oh: and Notturtle, thanks for the military analogy. It struck me as perfect.

Tashi delek,

R.

 

[sojournerphoto]

We all know the poor are scum who deserve it because they weren't smart enough or hard working enough, right? That's what they say here in Indiana.

They don't say that around my house. Everyone's different.

 

[agricola]

Roger

from the other side of the world, and one year older than you - I hope your wife is well.

christopher - you have a fine looking son, and you take good pictures

this thread has been an interesting read

 

[NathanJD]

Ehh no I don't give advise, I offer my opinion.
Best regards

Semantics ,

I stick by my point:

My point? There is no absolute answer in any subject except mathematics.

 

[mfunnell]

My point? There is no absolute answer in any subject except mathematics.

And even mathematics can only show you some absolute answers. For others, even if the answers are absolutely true you may have no way of knowing it. There's a rather famous theorem demonstrating that, as I recall...

...Mike

 

[gnarayan]

'buy an M6ttl, it's nearly as good as an MP, but a lot cheaper', which is clearly true but involves buying second-best if an MP is what you really want.

Roger,

Every camera site has its share of the "Which camera should I get" threads. When it is for a digital camera I usually point people here -

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp

It'd be useful if this site had something like this. It'd be even simpler in some ways for 35mm RFs because there really aren't all that many features so you need fewer otpions. Budget, digital or not, fixed Lens or not, which mount, frame lines, VF magnification, bottom or back loading, in camera meter or not, AE or not. Many RF cameras are bought used so a rough price guide like http://www.antiquecameras.net/leicamcameras.html
would be needed for budget. It'd still take a long time to assemble the camera database but it does not have to include every single option straight away.

Even if the poster gets multiple results after their constraints, it should be a lot easier to pick between that subset and give advice that is more useful to them.

Another alternative is simply avoiding the threads entirely.

Cheers,
-Gautham