jpb16
John
Hello All,
Yesterday's experiment was to take my Rolleiflex Automat into work and use the high speed (4000 frame/second) camera there to see what speed the shutter was really actuating. Here were the results:
setting -- time (msec) -- actual spd
500 -- 1.3 millisec -- 800
250 -- 3.5 -- 286
125 -- 2.8 -- 364
60 -- 19 -- 53
30 -- 27 -- 37
15 -- 2.5 -- 400
8 -- 556 -- 1.8
4 -- 707 -- 1.4
I thought this was interesting that the 15 shutter speed was so quick acting like 400. I bought the camera used and it had sat for quite a while. I have the procedure from the "suaudeau.eu" web site from the Compur repair manual. I had it apart once to clean it out (good luck finding ether, used Diesel starting fluid instead).
So why this post? I guess to see if there are any other hacks who have done what I have and offer suggestions. I also was wondering if the shutter speed should only count as the time where the shutter is fully open or if I should count the 1 millisecond it counts to open or to close. Anyone interested in seeing the video?
Thanks in advance for this post and thank you for all the other great info that you share on this site.
Yesterday's experiment was to take my Rolleiflex Automat into work and use the high speed (4000 frame/second) camera there to see what speed the shutter was really actuating. Here were the results:
setting -- time (msec) -- actual spd
500 -- 1.3 millisec -- 800
250 -- 3.5 -- 286
125 -- 2.8 -- 364
60 -- 19 -- 53
30 -- 27 -- 37
15 -- 2.5 -- 400
8 -- 556 -- 1.8
4 -- 707 -- 1.4
I thought this was interesting that the 15 shutter speed was so quick acting like 400. I bought the camera used and it had sat for quite a while. I have the procedure from the "suaudeau.eu" web site from the Compur repair manual. I had it apart once to clean it out (good luck finding ether, used Diesel starting fluid instead).
So why this post? I guess to see if there are any other hacks who have done what I have and offer suggestions. I also was wondering if the shutter speed should only count as the time where the shutter is fully open or if I should count the 1 millisecond it counts to open or to close. Anyone interested in seeing the video?
Thanks in advance for this post and thank you for all the other great info that you share on this site.
Vickko
Mentor
Looks like the slow speed escapement isn't working properly. It looks way too sluggish.
The 1/30th and faster speeds don't use the slow speed escapement.
Can you hear that it is way too slow?
May need a very thorough cleaning, and then gentle relube. It could also be installed incorrectly, leading to the way off timings.
Vick
The 1/30th and faster speeds don't use the slow speed escapement.
Can you hear that it is way too slow?
May need a very thorough cleaning, and then gentle relube. It could also be installed incorrectly, leading to the way off timings.
Vick
jpb16
John
interesting. I did a light lube with sewing machine oil because it was the lightest oil I could find. Installation problem is also a possibility because I had it open and was dinking with that mechanism. Yes I can here the slow speeds and the 15 speed just clicks. thanks for the feedback.
literiter
Well-known
Looking at the speeds:
500 -- 800
250 -- 286
15 -- 400
These appear to me to be far too high for the camera to achieve even in the best of condition. I would look at your shutter speed testing system before doing any adjustments.
As for oil may I suggest that sewing machine oil may be far too viscous for the shutter mechanism. Please search "Moebius Oil" and recommendations for application.
Cleaning the shutter escapement is best done carefully with something like lighter fluid, which I use.
It can get scary but you should consider taking it all apart and cleaning the shutter blades as well.
500 -- 800
250 -- 286
15 -- 400
These appear to me to be far too high for the camera to achieve even in the best of condition. I would look at your shutter speed testing system before doing any adjustments.
As for oil may I suggest that sewing machine oil may be far too viscous for the shutter mechanism. Please search "Moebius Oil" and recommendations for application.
Cleaning the shutter escapement is best done carefully with something like lighter fluid, which I use.
It can get scary but you should consider taking it all apart and cleaning the shutter blades as well.
jpb16
John
the 500 open for such a short time made me think that the time when the shutter is partially open might count towards exposure. even 1.5 millisecond added for open and close would get the shutter speed back to 500.
marduk
Well-known
..and the fast 1/15 shutter speed is a common problem for these cameras. My Rolleiflex 3.5E had a fast-acting 1/15s when I received it and the other speeds were pretty much spot on.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
you shouldn't really use oil on the compur (type) shutters.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
I have my doubts whether the measuring with a (at 1/4000s relatively slow compared to the actual shutter action) high speed camera can be accurate. Escapement/spring or secondary spring transition speeds often are fast as a consequence of somebody increasing the tension to overcome a dirty, sluggish shutter, and that would explain the 1/15s and 1/500s, but that strange pattern at 1/125 and 1/250 is hardly explicable with common shutter faults.
Gumby
Mentor
Not true. Maybe you've had one run without lube but the Compur repair manual has extensive lubrication requirements; They know what they were talking about. These requirements are even more important on 00-size shutters, like that of the Rollei TLR.
In addition to (probably) incomplete cleaning I would suspect the OP's shutter is also incompletely lubircated and improperly adjusted.
The small Compur shutters are a real pain-in-the-neck... sending it out to an experienced repair person is a good idea before you try too many (possibly iaccurate) hacks and make the situation even worse.
jpb16
John
So I adjusted the 1/15 shutter speed according to the Syncro/Compur manual and now it is too slow, like closer to 1/8 speed. I call that progress.
I did not put any lube on the shutter blades. Only on the mechanisms indicated by the Compur manual.
I don't agree that 4000 frames per second is not fast enough. We can watch the shutter transition from open to closed across several frames. (or does that mean my shutter opens and closes slow) 1/500 speed means open for 2 milliseconds which is 8 frames.
The 1/125 speed was much slower after having the camera apart again, this time it was open for 11 milliseconds.
The good news I'm going to load film and see what I get.
Thanks again for the feedback. All good stuff.
I did not put any lube on the shutter blades. Only on the mechanisms indicated by the Compur manual.
I don't agree that 4000 frames per second is not fast enough. We can watch the shutter transition from open to closed across several frames. (or does that mean my shutter opens and closes slow) 1/500 speed means open for 2 milliseconds which is 8 frames.
The 1/125 speed was much slower after having the camera apart again, this time it was open for 11 milliseconds.
The good news I'm going to load film and see what I get.
Thanks again for the feedback. All good stuff.