didjiman
Richard Man
I used to highly recommend Zeiss viewfinders. They are incredibly bright. I also have a few Zeiss ZM lens such as the Sonnar 85/2 ZM and the 25/2.8. Of course I love their 30 year SWC Biogon lens. I also owned the 21/2.8 ZM before.
However, I can no longer recommend Zeiss products. Why? Take a look at the following photos. The first one is just hand held using the Zeiss 15mm Viewfinder lining up the horizontal framelines with the lines on the wall etc. It’s very loosely done and I am not directly parallel to the wall so there’s a slight tilt and distortion, not a problem.
The second one is taken with the 25/28mm Zeiss Viewfinder with the camera on the tripod and I lining up the framelines as careful as possible. See the problem?
Yes, the framelines are tilted. This does not happen on the 15mm VF, or the 21mm and 25mm VF I once owned. I understand things can get out of alignment, especially since this is a used item. I am prepared to have it fixed if the price is right. So I emailed Zeiss support, having done business with them previously when they adjusted my Sonnar 85/2 ZM.
The conversation (I have to respect their “confidentiality” and not posting the actual email) basically went like this:
(Zeiss Person): there is nothing wrong with the viewfinder. Zeiss does not recommend using the finder on non-Zeiss cameras (oh yea, like there are zillions of Zeiss Ikon being used compared to the Leica M? Dream ON). You have to adjust for it.
Me: but the other viewfinders work fine!
ZP: you can send it to us for inspection, I can tell WITH CERTAINTY that there is nothing wrong with the viewfinder.
****
With certainty? Without looking at it, and with all the other Zeiss finders working just fine on the same camera? Really? Wow. And this would be the last time I purchase a Zeiss viewfinder. You be the judge of the photo evidence. I will rather spend $150 and get a Voigtlander Cosina finder than dealing with such arrogance. So much for the legendary Zeiss quality.
(blog at http://www.richardmanphoto.com/blog/?p=3634)
However, I can no longer recommend Zeiss products. Why? Take a look at the following photos. The first one is just hand held using the Zeiss 15mm Viewfinder lining up the horizontal framelines with the lines on the wall etc. It’s very loosely done and I am not directly parallel to the wall so there’s a slight tilt and distortion, not a problem.
The second one is taken with the 25/28mm Zeiss Viewfinder with the camera on the tripod and I lining up the framelines as careful as possible. See the problem?
Yes, the framelines are tilted. This does not happen on the 15mm VF, or the 21mm and 25mm VF I once owned. I understand things can get out of alignment, especially since this is a used item. I am prepared to have it fixed if the price is right. So I emailed Zeiss support, having done business with them previously when they adjusted my Sonnar 85/2 ZM.
The conversation (I have to respect their “confidentiality” and not posting the actual email) basically went like this:
(Zeiss Person): there is nothing wrong with the viewfinder. Zeiss does not recommend using the finder on non-Zeiss cameras (oh yea, like there are zillions of Zeiss Ikon being used compared to the Leica M? Dream ON). You have to adjust for it.
Me: but the other viewfinders work fine!
ZP: you can send it to us for inspection, I can tell WITH CERTAINTY that there is nothing wrong with the viewfinder.
****
With certainty? Without looking at it, and with all the other Zeiss finders working just fine on the same camera? Really? Wow. And this would be the last time I purchase a Zeiss viewfinder. You be the judge of the photo evidence. I will rather spend $150 and get a Voigtlander Cosina finder than dealing with such arrogance. So much for the legendary Zeiss quality.
(blog at http://www.richardmanphoto.com/blog/?p=3634)
Richard G
Mentor
I have had come minor difficulties, but my tests are inconclusive..
Quote: from http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1799313
"Originally Posted by RichardB
I have both the Zeiss 21mm and the Leitz (12 012) marked plastic 21mm finder with lock. I use the Leica 21mm f2.8 ASPH lens.
After the recommendations of this Forum, I purchased the Zeiss finder and immediately noticed a rotation about the vertical axis in my work. A quick look at the finders revealed, the M mount center-line in relationship to the accessory/flash mount confirmed that the M accessory mount is offset from the M lens mount center-line. A simple drawing will show that this arrangement with the Zeiss finder will introduce the a fore mentioned offset. Using an object that was about the proportions of a 35mm frame, I tested both finders and the offset is readily visible. I Posted this on this Forum and was derided.
I do not use the Zeiss finder anymore and would upgrade to the newer Leica 21mm finder if it didn't have M8 frame lines.
The Zeiss finder is a nice piece of work but it is not meant for the Leica M.-Dick
This is interesting Dick, and I looked up your previous post. I was taking some architectural shots recently with the Zeiss Finder on an M5. I was surprised after the care I took (admittedly without tripod, but it was 38 degrees C outside) that two shots were not perfectly en face. I found the opposite rotation to what you found. Only two shots but both with the camera rotated clockwise slightly. I think I have others where it is much straighter."
I have done some dry (no pictures) tests with a tripod and both the ZM 21 and 25/28 finders. Both considering the reflections off the front face of each in comparison to the viewfinder front window, and more importantly, comparing the view through each I cannot find much difference at 3 meters. No difference between the two Zeiss finders and no clear difference between them and my camera viewfinder.
It is difficult to line up the centre of the external VFs except with a vertical running from the middle of the gap in the frame line etching. This mid point does move a little to left and right depending on where my eye is, behind my spectacles. My conclusion is that the absolute offset and the potential rotation of the ZM finder on a Leica must be very slight. I tested this with my M6 and I will test it when I get home from holidays with my other Ms. Just looking at the accessory shoe it looks like it is directed very slightly to the right, and that is the impression I get looking down on the mounted finders. Given that the shoe is to the right of the lens axis one might have expected the shoe to be very slightly directed left. It will be interesting to look at the other camera tomorrow.
I can only conclude at this stage that my two shots not parallel to the facade of the buildings I wanted were due to human error. I hope this remains my conclusion after further testing.
__________________
Richard
Quote: from http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1799313
"Originally Posted by RichardB
I have both the Zeiss 21mm and the Leitz (12 012) marked plastic 21mm finder with lock. I use the Leica 21mm f2.8 ASPH lens.
After the recommendations of this Forum, I purchased the Zeiss finder and immediately noticed a rotation about the vertical axis in my work. A quick look at the finders revealed, the M mount center-line in relationship to the accessory/flash mount confirmed that the M accessory mount is offset from the M lens mount center-line. A simple drawing will show that this arrangement with the Zeiss finder will introduce the a fore mentioned offset. Using an object that was about the proportions of a 35mm frame, I tested both finders and the offset is readily visible. I Posted this on this Forum and was derided.
I do not use the Zeiss finder anymore and would upgrade to the newer Leica 21mm finder if it didn't have M8 frame lines.
The Zeiss finder is a nice piece of work but it is not meant for the Leica M.-Dick
This is interesting Dick, and I looked up your previous post. I was taking some architectural shots recently with the Zeiss Finder on an M5. I was surprised after the care I took (admittedly without tripod, but it was 38 degrees C outside) that two shots were not perfectly en face. I found the opposite rotation to what you found. Only two shots but both with the camera rotated clockwise slightly. I think I have others where it is much straighter."
I have done some dry (no pictures) tests with a tripod and both the ZM 21 and 25/28 finders. Both considering the reflections off the front face of each in comparison to the viewfinder front window, and more importantly, comparing the view through each I cannot find much difference at 3 meters. No difference between the two Zeiss finders and no clear difference between them and my camera viewfinder.
It is difficult to line up the centre of the external VFs except with a vertical running from the middle of the gap in the frame line etching. This mid point does move a little to left and right depending on where my eye is, behind my spectacles. My conclusion is that the absolute offset and the potential rotation of the ZM finder on a Leica must be very slight. I tested this with my M6 and I will test it when I get home from holidays with my other Ms. Just looking at the accessory shoe it looks like it is directed very slightly to the right, and that is the impression I get looking down on the mounted finders. Given that the shoe is to the right of the lens axis one might have expected the shoe to be very slightly directed left. It will be interesting to look at the other camera tomorrow.
I can only conclude at this stage that my two shots not parallel to the facade of the buildings I wanted were due to human error. I hope this remains my conclusion after further testing.
__________________
Richard
nonot
Well-known
That's some terrible customer service. I've had nothing but good product from them (and cv, same thing no?). I'd say take your business elsewhere but that doesn't leave you many options. Call Zeiss directly maybe (skip the csr)?
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I'll get my micrometers on my Zeiss 21mm finder to see if the external dimensions are correct then do some M9 testing with my SA lined up looking at a brick wall and see if there is any axial rotation of the image. If it turns out that there is in fact a tilt then I'll probably live with it but I'll also probably figure out how to shim the finder to align it correctly.
Phil Forrest
Phil Forrest
MCTuomey
Mentor
contact richard schleuning at zeiss usa. somehow you didn't get thru to the right person.
Timestep
Established
Try levelling the camera (on tripod with spirit level ) This should define the degree of tilt.
I use an old Zeiss Contax 35mm. finder on my Nikon S2, and am constantly surprised at its accuracy. But then these old items are jewell-like. Perhaps standards were higher then.
I use an old Zeiss Contax 35mm. finder on my Nikon S2, and am constantly surprised at its accuracy. But then these old items are jewell-like. Perhaps standards were higher then.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Leveling the camera with a spirit level is is a very good thing to do, but of course that is usually only done when the camera is on a tripod. For hand-held shooting, the right thing to do when sighting through the finder is to make sure the vertical lines of the subject appear vertical in the finder. The horizontal lines should be disregarded, as they can, and will, not appear parallel to the frame edges unless the lens is perfectly centered on the subject, as mentioned in a previous post.
For the horizontal lines to not be parallel to the top & bottom frame edges is not necessarily a fault. It can be a matter of perspective. Unless the camera back is parallel to the plane of the subject, the horizontal lines will converge to a vanishing point, just as they appear to when looking at a fence that appears to come to a point in the distance. It's the same principle that makes vertical lines converge when the camera back is not kept aligned in the vertical plane.
I have the Zeiss 21mm and 25/28 finders and use them on my Leicas, film and digital. I've not had a problem myself.
didjiman
Richard Man
I am getting a CV25mm from one of the reputed dealers. I'm sure if there is any major issue like that I can get it returned. I know the risk of getting used and was willing to pay for the repair, but that attitude just is something else.
didjiman
Richard Man
In fact, that was the gentleman I communicated with. He took care of my Sonnar 85/2 ZM when it went really wobbly (probably due to my fault that time).
didjiman
Richard Man
The same thing happened when I align with vertical.
I can accept that slight rotation is possible due to the offset hotshoe.
I can accept that a used device may get bumped around and I may have to pay to get it fixed.
I cannot accept arrogance.
I can accept that slight rotation is possible due to the offset hotshoe.
I can accept that a used device may get bumped around and I may have to pay to get it fixed.
I cannot accept arrogance.
didjiman
Richard Man
Yes, I have used a bubble level. When the internal M9 framelines are aligned, the bubble is level and the 25mm Z framelines are tilted. When I aligned with the Zeiss framelines, then the bubble and the internal framelines and the image as shown, are tilted. The camera back is fairly parallel to the wall shown. No I didn't enforce that, but the camera was on a tripod and I eyeballed.
BTW, I have shot over 15000 images on the M9 since I have gotten it so I know how the camera functions.
Again, the 15mm Z finder I have currently does not have this problem, using the camera, and the same hotshoe.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Richard, I didn't realize it was so far off when you posted about this on the LUG. I'd send it to them anyway and let an actual technician at Zeiss look at it instead of letting some a--hole in customer DISservice convince you not to.
I can promise you that you will HATE the CV finder. I had the 28mm one and it had so much distortion that it was totally unusable. Was impossible to level the camera because all lines were so severely curved. Completely worthless and not worth the $200 it cost.
I can promise you that you will HATE the CV finder. I had the 28mm one and it had so much distortion that it was totally unusable. Was impossible to level the camera because all lines were so severely curved. Completely worthless and not worth the $200 it cost.
Paul Luscher
Well-known
Hmmm...onc again I have to be the contrarian. I use the CV 21mm external finder on my M9 and am happy with the results...but then , I am not shooting architecture, as some of you appear to be doing.
It's just a fact that you can never get exact framing with a rangefinder. One of the disadvantages it has as opposed to an SLR. And I don't know if any external finder could give you exact framing, or account for the kind of distortion that shows up in a wide -angle lens if you are just a bit off center.
It's just a fact that you can never get exact framing with a rangefinder. One of the disadvantages it has as opposed to an SLR. And I don't know if any external finder could give you exact framing, or account for the kind of distortion that shows up in a wide -angle lens if you are just a bit off center.
didjiman
Richard Man
Popflash just shipped the CV25 finder so we will see how well it works. I am in contact with another Zeiss personnel in Germany. They don't seem to understand that they are not doing due diligence on making sure it's not a user error if they assert that the error is because the finder is not made for the M9 and that "with certainty" that they will not find an error, but that they just sound arrogance and not doing good customer support.
And now they are claiming that it seems I don't want to send the finder back for service in the first place.
Every single lens that needs a finder, I had always bought the Zeiss finder. I even masking taped the 15mm so I can use it with the Hasselblad XPan 30mm lens even though I have the XPan 30mm finder. These people need to learn the arts of customer support. I write C compilers. 99% of the customer's reported issues are not our problems, and I would never talk to our customers this way.
And now they are claiming that it seems I don't want to send the finder back for service in the first place.
Every single lens that needs a finder, I had always bought the Zeiss finder. I even masking taped the 15mm so I can use it with the Hasselblad XPan 30mm lens even though I have the XPan 30mm finder. These people need to learn the arts of customer support. I write C compilers. 99% of the customer's reported issues are not our problems, and I would never talk to our customers this way.
didjiman
Richard Man
The Smoking Gun, see the photo of the framelines in the viewfinder. We leveled everything as best we can using bubble levels. The internal M9 framelines are “dead-on,” definitely good enough for framing purpose. As you can see, the framelines inside the Zeiss finder, as marked by the red lines, are tilted. Notice that the finder is just sitting on top of the camera, not in the hotshoe, so it has nothing to do with “rotational” axis with respect to the center of the lens etc.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Wow. Looks like some of the optics are going to have to be removed and tilted if that is even possible.
Phil Forrest
Phil Forrest
kanzlr
Hexaneur
my CV 21mm finder has tilted framelines too. Can be adjusted according to Stephen Gandy.
efix
RF user by conviction
Had the exact same problem with my CV 21mm finder. Opened it up, rotated the glass element that contains the framelines by a couple degrees, closed it again. Works fine now.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Oh dear, that sensor does need remapping!The Smoking Gun, see the photo of the framelines in the viewfinder. We leveled everything as best we can using bubble levels. The internal M9 framelines are “dead-on,” definitely good enough for framing purpose. As you can see, the framelines inside the Zeiss finder, as marked by the red lines, are tilted. Notice that the finder is just sitting on top of the camera, not in the hotshoe, so it has nothing to do with “rotational” axis with respect to the center of the lens etc.
