mackigator
Well-known
Lovely thread! Like everyone else, I'll ignore most of what you wrote and just tell you what I'd do. 
Don't sweat the camera body too much (I mean, pick the right framelines and all) - but do sweat the choice of film and lens. In fact, I'd flip the 2k budget around and look for the cheapest body that I could tolerate, until a year or two or three allowed me to pick up something I was certain about (Zeiss Ikon, M6TTL, etc).
The film and lens choices will give your shooting a consistent feel (or not). If you are allocating a limited budget, I would put most toward the lens and buy the right Leica or Zeiss lens at the start. Then slap it on whatever body is most appropriate at the leftover price point. For me it would be a 50mm f/2-ish of some stripe.
Another way of saying this: All M-mount bodies will technically take the same photo with a 50mm Summicron, or a Zeiss 50mm C-Sonnar, and so on.
But I also suggest shooting two focal lengths, one that is practically glued to your M-mount body, and another that is on a truely pocketable, nearly instant-on, go-anywhere camera. I'd want the pocket cam to be either a 28mm or a 35mm focal length. A Ricoh GR1v would fit the bill nicely. On the cheap, consider an Olympus XA or XA4.
http://japancamerahunter.com/2012/04/the-ricoh-gr-a-buyers-guide/
Used Bessa R2A body - $600 (manual or aperture priority, exposure lock, light meter, easy loading)
Used Zeiss 50mm C-Sonnar f/1.5- $900 ($1200 new)
Used GR1v - $600
I love that you are setting out a big goal - just take the plunge and make yourself chip away at it one frame at time.
Don't sweat the camera body too much (I mean, pick the right framelines and all) - but do sweat the choice of film and lens. In fact, I'd flip the 2k budget around and look for the cheapest body that I could tolerate, until a year or two or three allowed me to pick up something I was certain about (Zeiss Ikon, M6TTL, etc).
The film and lens choices will give your shooting a consistent feel (or not). If you are allocating a limited budget, I would put most toward the lens and buy the right Leica or Zeiss lens at the start. Then slap it on whatever body is most appropriate at the leftover price point. For me it would be a 50mm f/2-ish of some stripe.
Another way of saying this: All M-mount bodies will technically take the same photo with a 50mm Summicron, or a Zeiss 50mm C-Sonnar, and so on.
But I also suggest shooting two focal lengths, one that is practically glued to your M-mount body, and another that is on a truely pocketable, nearly instant-on, go-anywhere camera. I'd want the pocket cam to be either a 28mm or a 35mm focal length. A Ricoh GR1v would fit the bill nicely. On the cheap, consider an Olympus XA or XA4.
http://japancamerahunter.com/2012/04/the-ricoh-gr-a-buyers-guide/
Used Bessa R2A body - $600 (manual or aperture priority, exposure lock, light meter, easy loading)
Used Zeiss 50mm C-Sonnar f/1.5- $900 ($1200 new)
Used GR1v - $600
I love that you are setting out a big goal - just take the plunge and make yourself chip away at it one frame at time.
leicapixie
Well-known
i applaud your mission.
i am 68 heading into 69 at almost terminal velocity.
Use film, make actual darkroom prints even if only for a few years..
Leica need services and repairs. They are made for the long haul.
I own a M3 and a M6TTL. Go for the M6.
Sure the viewfinder not as nice, the camera a lil rougher when new BUT it is a Leica. It may well last most of your life! Availability of film in 50 years cannot be guaranteed nor the needed chemicals. Many of them can be made from scratch! Digital may face a bleaker future earlier with a new JPEG, various RAW and possibly a new internet and complete new computing..
NASA cannot use some of their original data, cannot see it or cannot read it!
The people who knew those PC and computer languages not available.
I, in a few short years,have gone thru many versions of Windows. Now "8" is available..Need to phase out Windows XP.
So your quest is honorable. I shoot mainly digital point and shoot but still use my M3 purchased new in 1967.
Go with Leica lenses as much as possible. Their "look" is not the same. In fact each version while almost perfect has a special signature.A rangefinder needs FEW extra lenses. Go for the 50mm, best price, later a 28mm. Maybe a 90 or simply crop your photo! Keep it as simple as possible. My Friend Mauro, "Never in Color" only uses a M4, the 50mm for ALL his photography.
Learn to use the Leica like a part of your body, load in dark. Set speeds and openings by feel and learn to move focus by feel.Tabbed lenses superior.
Today in a world of MORE is Better, go with practical simplicity.
Good Luck!
i am 68 heading into 69 at almost terminal velocity.
Use film, make actual darkroom prints even if only for a few years..
Leica need services and repairs. They are made for the long haul.
I own a M3 and a M6TTL. Go for the M6.
Sure the viewfinder not as nice, the camera a lil rougher when new BUT it is a Leica. It may well last most of your life! Availability of film in 50 years cannot be guaranteed nor the needed chemicals. Many of them can be made from scratch! Digital may face a bleaker future earlier with a new JPEG, various RAW and possibly a new internet and complete new computing..
NASA cannot use some of their original data, cannot see it or cannot read it!
The people who knew those PC and computer languages not available.
I, in a few short years,have gone thru many versions of Windows. Now "8" is available..Need to phase out Windows XP.
So your quest is honorable. I shoot mainly digital point and shoot but still use my M3 purchased new in 1967.
Go with Leica lenses as much as possible. Their "look" is not the same. In fact each version while almost perfect has a special signature.A rangefinder needs FEW extra lenses. Go for the 50mm, best price, later a 28mm. Maybe a 90 or simply crop your photo! Keep it as simple as possible. My Friend Mauro, "Never in Color" only uses a M4, the 50mm for ALL his photography.
Learn to use the Leica like a part of your body, load in dark. Set speeds and openings by feel and learn to move focus by feel.Tabbed lenses superior.
Today in a world of MORE is Better, go with practical simplicity.
Good Luck!
CaptZoom
Established
My advice:
Forget about getting a Leica body. Instead get a Leica clone. Spend the money on the summicron up front. Leica clones are plentiful and cheap. Furthermore any one who can repair a Leica body, can also repair a Leica clone. As long as the camera body is light sealed and the shutter is mostly accurate, you'll be fine. Spend the money on the lens. Stock up on film. Get the camera body with whatever funds you've got left. As for a light meter, you'll be surprised how quickly you'll pick up on metering yourself. Plus cell phones now days come with light meters. This will probably continue to be the case if cell phones continue on the they are today.
Forget about getting a Leica body. Instead get a Leica clone. Spend the money on the summicron up front. Leica clones are plentiful and cheap. Furthermore any one who can repair a Leica body, can also repair a Leica clone. As long as the camera body is light sealed and the shutter is mostly accurate, you'll be fine. Spend the money on the lens. Stock up on film. Get the camera body with whatever funds you've got left. As for a light meter, you'll be surprised how quickly you'll pick up on metering yourself. Plus cell phones now days come with light meters. This will probably continue to be the case if cell phones continue on the they are today.
CaptZoom
Established
Ha...mackigator beat me to it
paulfish4570
Mentor
admirable goal, carsten. wish i had kept my m3 from 35 years ago. i'd only have 25 more years to go for 60 ...
Dylan Hope
Established
I've got a 13 year old cybershot (DSC-F55E represent!) and the battery lasts around 5 minutes, and it's nigh impossible to get a replacement battery for it. I think that getting a digital Leica to last as long as the OP wants would make for a frustrating photo taking experience. I can see batteries not being a problem for 10, maybe 20 years tops. Whether or not film will last that long, I can't say, but every person shooting film means added potential longevity of the medium.
I say go for an M6 or MP OP, when the meter eventually dies you could either get it replaced, or just carry on with an external meter
bgb
Well-known
What advice do you think a 79 year old Carsten would give to an almost 19 year old Carsten after having lived and interesting life?
In the end only you can decide but my .02 cents worth is to start shooting now with what ever you have and when it no longer meets your needs move on to something that does.
In the end only you can decide but my .02 cents worth is to start shooting now with what ever you have and when it no longer meets your needs move on to something that does.
Matus
Well-known
I do not have much worries about the BW film - I think it is here to stay for a while.
All those advices about M6 (or M6ttl) sound good - it will even allow you to get a decent lens.
All those advices about M6 (or M6ttl) sound good - it will even allow you to get a decent lens.
mackigator
Well-known
Great question: "What advice do you think a 79 year old Carsten would give to an almost 19 year old Carsten after having lived and interesting life?"
My stab at an answer:
My stab at an answer:
- Read "On Being a Photographer" as soon as you can.
- Great photos happen when people trust each other. Build trust, not a gear bag.
- Get an audio recorder too.
- Know when to put the camera down, but sometimes let the audio run.
- Don't marry her for her looks.
- Be the one who is capable of talking about money. Get paid.
- Own your own domain name and keep putting content on it.
- Love and laugh as much as you can.
- Always choose experiences over things.
- Remain optimistic even in the face of insurmountable odds.
- Keep a working backup copy.
mfogiel
Mentor
I think, that your ideal kit would be an MP with a Summilux, however given the price you will probably be better off with a BP M6 and a lens like Planar or Hexanon 50. An intermediate solution could be to get a Bessa R3A or R3M with a Nokton 50/1.5 and wait to buy the final kit, when you'll start earning some real money. Actually, this kit is on offer right now here:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php?product=36987
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php?product=36987
Pickett Wilson
Mentor
As has been pointed out, the photo you take with an R3A and Summicron is going to look exactly like the photo you would shoot with an MP and Summicron. Spend your money on lenses.
FrankS
Registered User
Yes, but the experience is different. Importance of this varies with users.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Tri-X is a good emulsion but if you want to really stock up, buy rolls of cinema film in either 400 or 1000ft lengths. You can stick these in the freezer for years. Check out the Kodak Double X Eastman 5222 thread here on RFF to see what outstanding results it can give. ORWO also makes 100 and 400 ISO cine film in the same lengths. I only have two 400ft cans of Kodak Double X left and I'm hoping I'll still be able to get it come next year.
Get a Darkroom Cookbook and learn to make your own chemistry.
After 15 to 20 years, these methods are probably the only way you're going to be able to shoot 35mm film .
As for the body, The M4 is the best one (in my personal opinion, of course) but there were 4 times as many M3 bodies produced so there are a lot of parts. On the flip side, the M4P is an amazing camera as well. No electronics to fiddle with but 30 years newer than the M3 with a more utilitarian viewfinder good for use with wide angles.
I've had my years with Leicas, shooting almost daily with them. This year I found that the old Nikon rangefinder glass was just as good (even put up against 2 new Leica lenses) so I switched to a Nikon SP and S2 and have a whole range of lenses from 21mm to 135, all paid for with my V2 35 Summilux and 21 Super Angulon. Selling the Super Angulon was the hardest part of the switch but the 21mm CV lens is 99% the lens that the SA is, so I'm happy with it.
Good luck!
Phil Forrest
Get a Darkroom Cookbook and learn to make your own chemistry.
After 15 to 20 years, these methods are probably the only way you're going to be able to shoot 35mm film .
As for the body, The M4 is the best one (in my personal opinion, of course) but there were 4 times as many M3 bodies produced so there are a lot of parts. On the flip side, the M4P is an amazing camera as well. No electronics to fiddle with but 30 years newer than the M3 with a more utilitarian viewfinder good for use with wide angles.
I've had my years with Leicas, shooting almost daily with them. This year I found that the old Nikon rangefinder glass was just as good (even put up against 2 new Leica lenses) so I switched to a Nikon SP and S2 and have a whole range of lenses from 21mm to 135, all paid for with my V2 35 Summilux and 21 Super Angulon. Selling the Super Angulon was the hardest part of the switch but the 21mm CV lens is 99% the lens that the SA is, so I'm happy with it.
Good luck!
Phil Forrest
MartinP
Mentor
I realise wanting to use Tri-X is patriotic and so on, but Kodak (if they exist) are not going to be making it in sixty months, let alone sixty years. I'd suggest going for Ilford products.
Bear in mind that whatever camera you end up with will break, be destroyed or stolen - so you will need more than one. That could be sorted out later on of course (but not too much later).
What are you going to do for an enlarger? The enlarger light source? Printing paper? These will be bigger problems than the camera I think. Will there still be sufficient society to have a means of powering the enlarger electrically?? (OK, that's getting a bit silly! )
In a local technical-college here, there is a wall full of black-and-white photographs of a person. Starting from two or three years old approximately (he was standing up anyway), and always taken in the same place in town. I think they were made on his birthday each year. They went on until early this century when they stop at around forty years old, for reasons unknown. Something like those annual pictures could be interesting.
In Tilburg, there is a woman (Ria van Dijk) who has made "self-portraits" on the usual fairground shooting-range picture machines every year since 1936, when she was sixteen years old, stopping only during the second world war. Again, the consistency over time is very interesting as the woman, her clothing and the rest of the people and objects change gradually. This individuals photos even ended up as an exhibition at Rencontres d'Arles.
Bear in mind that whatever camera you end up with will break, be destroyed or stolen - so you will need more than one. That could be sorted out later on of course (but not too much later).
What are you going to do for an enlarger? The enlarger light source? Printing paper? These will be bigger problems than the camera I think. Will there still be sufficient society to have a means of powering the enlarger electrically?? (OK, that's getting a bit silly!
)In a local technical-college here, there is a wall full of black-and-white photographs of a person. Starting from two or three years old approximately (he was standing up anyway), and always taken in the same place in town. I think they were made on his birthday each year. They went on until early this century when they stop at around forty years old, for reasons unknown. Something like those annual pictures could be interesting.
In Tilburg, there is a woman (Ria van Dijk) who has made "self-portraits" on the usual fairground shooting-range picture machines every year since 1936, when she was sixteen years old, stopping only during the second world war. Again, the consistency over time is very interesting as the woman, her clothing and the rest of the people and objects change gradually. This individuals photos even ended up as an exhibition at Rencontres d'Arles.
leicapixie
Well-known
The advice about bodies other than Leica are valid. However "like", "Similar" are not same as the real thing. The Bessas while nice are noisy. The rangefinder quite short in base, making high speed, big aperture lenses esp longer, more difficult to get exact focus. The Zeiss Ikon thing is very quite in being seen or advertised.Perhaps Cosina is planning a Digital M?
The Leica "feel" is special. The cameras are not perfect. Yet in spite of many issues, no other camera body and system can become so much of one. I sometimes wish it were not so..
The Zeiss lenses and also the Voigtlander lenses from same factory, add a less expensive way to join. Sometimes it's better to bite the bullet and jump in to the deep end.It forces a commitment.
I did not plan to buy a Leica! In 1966, I traded a Linhof 4x5 for a Bronica, that literally never worked except as a film shredder. It was exchanged for a new, in the box, Leica M3, 50mm Summicron lens and the M-R meter.
In one year my portfolio was mainly the M3, pushing the SLR images out.
It was able to capture my vision, feelings and being so compact, ideal to carry 24/7. It was almost wiped out on a building site. The insurance company replaced the body, with a new M3. It arrived without a rangefinder..!!!
A letter of apology from Leitz. It had final assembly in South Africa. I use same camera today. A roll shot a few hours ago.
If you plan a pro career you will need digital as well. I used my Leica for both professional and personal usage, sometimes overlapping.
A recent test and comparison of a film vs digital by Asahi Magazine Japan, showed almost no difference in sharpness between the Nikon D600 and a Nikon Film camera with same lens! I had expected the digital to kill the film..
So film even now holding it's own esp in Dynamic Range. If pro speed of turn around required, ya gotta go digital!
I think though and from my experience except for NEWS, waiting, while one works on a project, image, is the better way. The BIG money was made by a few photographers using View cameras on tripods in studios.
Thank you, awards and grants not same as day to day earning.
My ex-wife and still a best friend said "When you use a SLR you make a picture. Your Leica and you make poetry."
Buy a body, ONE lens,one film,one developer.Shoot clear and decisive.
The Leica "feel" is special. The cameras are not perfect. Yet in spite of many issues, no other camera body and system can become so much of one. I sometimes wish it were not so..
The Zeiss lenses and also the Voigtlander lenses from same factory, add a less expensive way to join. Sometimes it's better to bite the bullet and jump in to the deep end.It forces a commitment.
I did not plan to buy a Leica! In 1966, I traded a Linhof 4x5 for a Bronica, that literally never worked except as a film shredder. It was exchanged for a new, in the box, Leica M3, 50mm Summicron lens and the M-R meter.
In one year my portfolio was mainly the M3, pushing the SLR images out.
It was able to capture my vision, feelings and being so compact, ideal to carry 24/7. It was almost wiped out on a building site. The insurance company replaced the body, with a new M3. It arrived without a rangefinder..!!!
A letter of apology from Leitz. It had final assembly in South Africa. I use same camera today. A roll shot a few hours ago.
If you plan a pro career you will need digital as well. I used my Leica for both professional and personal usage, sometimes overlapping.
A recent test and comparison of a film vs digital by Asahi Magazine Japan, showed almost no difference in sharpness between the Nikon D600 and a Nikon Film camera with same lens! I had expected the digital to kill the film..
So film even now holding it's own esp in Dynamic Range. If pro speed of turn around required, ya gotta go digital!
I think though and from my experience except for NEWS, waiting, while one works on a project, image, is the better way. The BIG money was made by a few photographers using View cameras on tripods in studios.
Thank you, awards and grants not same as day to day earning.
My ex-wife and still a best friend said "When you use a SLR you make a picture. Your Leica and you make poetry."
Buy a body, ONE lens,one film,one developer.Shoot clear and decisive.
ktmrider
Well-known
Other brands may produce similar results but if you want a Leica, then get a Leica. It may just be the mystique but I don't think you will be happy with another brand (take this from someone who has owned lots of different cameras but keeps coming back to Leica).
My favorites are the M2 or M4. However, if you shoot mainly 50 then either an M3 or M6 with .85. I have owned them all (almost) and if a meter is important then obviously an M6. However, you can get a VCII meter for a couple hundred and coupled with an M3 you might have the perfect kit for under $1000.
I keep thinking about a digital M but even used M8 prices suck plus you are buying five year old technology. I almost bought a Nikon D600 this weekend but the size of the camera stopped me and $5400 for an ME is nuts.
Am heading toward SE Asia for a month and taking the M2 for b&w and FujiX100 for low light and color. Again, M3 with VCII meter.
My favorites are the M2 or M4. However, if you shoot mainly 50 then either an M3 or M6 with .85. I have owned them all (almost) and if a meter is important then obviously an M6. However, you can get a VCII meter for a couple hundred and coupled with an M3 you might have the perfect kit for under $1000.
I keep thinking about a digital M but even used M8 prices suck plus you are buying five year old technology. I almost bought a Nikon D600 this weekend but the size of the camera stopped me and $5400 for an ME is nuts.
Am heading toward SE Asia for a month and taking the M2 for b&w and FujiX100 for low light and color. Again, M3 with VCII meter.
gustavoAvila
Established
This is a very admirable project!
However, I suggest that the images are FAR more important than the camera!
As such, I would not be overly dogmatic about using only one body for the rest of your life.
My suggestion is to purchase a cheap film camera and start the project now!
As finances and opportunities present themselves, purchase a number of Leica bodies and lenses. (Over a sixty year interval, it is highly likely that losses and breakdowns will occur. Multiple bodies will provide some redundancy for your project.)
However, I suggest that the images are FAR more important than the camera!
As such, I would not be overly dogmatic about using only one body for the rest of your life.
My suggestion is to purchase a cheap film camera and start the project now!
As finances and opportunities present themselves, purchase a number of Leica bodies and lenses. (Over a sixty year interval, it is highly likely that losses and breakdowns will occur. Multiple bodies will provide some redundancy for your project.)
Spicy
Well-known
Good advice in here. While I agree that if you're on a budget, the only parts of the initial process are the film and lens choices -- everything else is secondary (ok, some bodies may have less reliable shutter speeds, but provided you get a decent copy of anything, that should be a non-issue for the forseeable future).
Having said that, it is also important to bear in mind the old addage, "Fools pay twice." In my case, I bought a used (but still quite pricey) Voigtlander R2M and CV 35/1.4 with it, only to sell it a few months later when I bought a IIIc and then another two months later, an M4-P + CLA. I'm not saying it was a horrible way to do things, but I certainly would've saved some cash (though maybe not a huge amount) having simply started with the M in the first place.
That being said, variety is the spice of life. If finances are TRULY an issue, the most economic way is invest in a lens first, and get a body that'll hold it, shoot that for a while, and when you're a little more free financially, upgrade to the body you've always wanted (you'll appreciate it more that way, IMO). You'll also make a much smarter buy, rather than only being able to afford a semi-beat camera. 5-10 years from now, the few hundred bucks extra you spend from having to buy a second body will be (hopefully) a considerably less sizable chunk of your disposable income.
Perhaps take a look at/go hang out in the Russian forum on RFF. Many would argue that getting a decent Leica-copy and a capable CV or Zeiss lens (or even some of the Russian ones, like J8) would give you virtually the same results, for waayyyyyy cheaper, and offer a user-experience similar to that of a Leica body (though different in some ways -- ways that many of the USSR shooters find appealing).
I won't sit here and preach to you that it's irresponsible to spend all your money on a body and lens combination when it's really the lens that primarily matters. I really like the M4-P that I have. But note that I'm not shooting with a black paint M4 or some crazy titanium limited edition.
Having said that, it is also important to bear in mind the old addage, "Fools pay twice." In my case, I bought a used (but still quite pricey) Voigtlander R2M and CV 35/1.4 with it, only to sell it a few months later when I bought a IIIc and then another two months later, an M4-P + CLA. I'm not saying it was a horrible way to do things, but I certainly would've saved some cash (though maybe not a huge amount) having simply started with the M in the first place.
That being said, variety is the spice of life. If finances are TRULY an issue, the most economic way is invest in a lens first, and get a body that'll hold it, shoot that for a while, and when you're a little more free financially, upgrade to the body you've always wanted (you'll appreciate it more that way, IMO). You'll also make a much smarter buy, rather than only being able to afford a semi-beat camera. 5-10 years from now, the few hundred bucks extra you spend from having to buy a second body will be (hopefully) a considerably less sizable chunk of your disposable income.
Perhaps take a look at/go hang out in the Russian forum on RFF. Many would argue that getting a decent Leica-copy and a capable CV or Zeiss lens (or even some of the Russian ones, like J8) would give you virtually the same results, for waayyyyyy cheaper, and offer a user-experience similar to that of a Leica body (though different in some ways -- ways that many of the USSR shooters find appealing).
I won't sit here and preach to you that it's irresponsible to spend all your money on a body and lens combination when it's really the lens that primarily matters. I really like the M4-P that I have. But note that I'm not shooting with a black paint M4 or some crazy titanium limited edition.
David Charlwood
Established
Leica M2
50mm DR Summicron
Weston Master V
50mm DR Summicron
Weston Master V
raid
Dad Photographer
You are motivated for a long term relationship with Leica. My M3 is over fifty years old. It functions like new. If you need a meter, get a CV Meter II for the flash shoe of the M3. If you want to use a 35mm lens with the M3, use the enire viewfinder. The M3 was made for someone like you.
There are many excellent lenses.
There are many excellent lenses.