David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
The problem with looking at old photo's (meaning on or from film) is that only the best survive. And even at the time no one is going to publish a coffee table book of mistakes and disasters. So the sample is biased and deliberately so.
And I've a pretty good idea how many pictures have to be taken to get one or two into print. And a lot that don't get into print are just as good imo and I'm speaking as someone who has spent several years trying to clear out the attic and has found thousands of old photo's and proofs of books and so on.
Regards, David
PS Worse still is when you find good examples of them on the internet and have to get them taken down which can take weeks. I've had entire books scanned and republished by some naughty people who get indignant when I point out things like copyright and the money I could have made from them.
The problem with looking at old photo's (meaning on or from film) is that only the best survive. And even at the time no one is going to publish a coffee table book of mistakes and disasters. So the sample is biased and deliberately so.
And I've a pretty good idea how many pictures have to be taken to get one or two into print. And a lot that don't get into print are just as good imo and I'm speaking as someone who has spent several years trying to clear out the attic and has found thousands of old photo's and proofs of books and so on.
Regards, David
PS Worse still is when you find good examples of them on the internet and have to get them taken down which can take weeks. I've had entire books scanned and republished by some naughty people who get indignant when I point out things like copyright and the money I could have made from them.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
oh, why did i read this thread.
I had just made my mind up on a micro 4/3 purchase
More procrastination now ....doh.
I gotta stop reading stuff on the web.
LOL!
Go for it. I see that Amazon has some Olympus E-PL1 body only for sale @ $200 apiece. I have a cool little Cosmicar 12.5mm f/1.4 TV lens already permanently modified to fit on a Micro-FourThirds mount, and I have the EVF for that camera (same one for the Leica X2). A little veriwide to play with ...
Panasonic G2 + Cosmicar 12.5mm f/1.4 TV
I thought that a little ironic ...
G
Godfrey
somewhat colored
upceci
-
Photography is the same medium as it was when it first became ubiquitous. The medium of photography is basically a visual form of communication, some people who get into photography without actually having anything to say finally run out of reasons to carry on taking photos, those who can only say what they want to say through photography carry on taking photos because it makes them feel empowered. Where does technology, flicker, film and other matters have to do with that basic use of photography as a visual medium? If one has to take photos then one goes on taking photos because that very activity is the means and the end.
Roger Hicks
Mentor
True. But one chooses the most congenial and expressive photographic medium (format, equipment, capture medium, final image). And it is conceivable that if the medium is no longer congenial, one quits.
Cheers,
R.
robklurfield
eclipse
CK Dexter Haven, you do have a choice of tools, modes and methods. If you miss the zing and zip that you felt from film, why not just go back to what turned you on in the first place?
Did you ever get that Nikon that you wanted when dad gave you the Minolta? How about the Hasselblad? If you have 'em, pull 'em out. If not, buy one or the other or both.
If you find yourself pining over Tri-X or HP5, what's stopping you from going there? Maybe those emulsions will vanish, but they haven't yet. If you don't like what you see in fashion magazines or on the web (here or in flickr), why not go to a gallery, a museum or subscribe to fine art photography magazine.
Lord knows, you're in good company. You have choices. If homogeneity and all that other stuff has you down, at least you know that you're not yet limited to digital/digititis. Someday, if you live long enough, perhaps no one will be making film emulsions. Until that day comes, live it up.
On a personal note: I have shot thousands of images. I still have no clue what I'm doing. I have an M8 I enjoy, but I have nowhere near mastered it yet. It will wear out before I do. I'm still learning how to use film after 30+ years of farting around with it. I still shoot lots of film, more than I used to even. Are there subjective and qualitative differences between them? Sure. Are they the reason that I'm never happy with my output? Hell no. They are tools. The problem in my case is the operator. He has a lot to learn in the film world and the digital world. Both mediums have plenty of possibilities. I don't suggest that you wait, holding your breath, until either you or I exhaust those possibilities.
If you don't like the work others are making, make your own exactly the way you want (and post it here for the rest of us to see, please). Push that boulder up the hill. Rinse and repeat, Sisyphus-like, until you get the results you want. And if you never get the results you want, then maybe the point isn't in the destination but in the journey. (I can mix metaphors with the best of them.)
Dammit, man, relax and have fun. And, if you're not having fun, then rent The Philadelphia Story and consider what your namesake would do in this situation.
Did you ever get that Nikon that you wanted when dad gave you the Minolta? How about the Hasselblad? If you have 'em, pull 'em out. If not, buy one or the other or both.
If you find yourself pining over Tri-X or HP5, what's stopping you from going there? Maybe those emulsions will vanish, but they haven't yet. If you don't like what you see in fashion magazines or on the web (here or in flickr), why not go to a gallery, a museum or subscribe to fine art photography magazine.
Lord knows, you're in good company. You have choices. If homogeneity and all that other stuff has you down, at least you know that you're not yet limited to digital/digititis. Someday, if you live long enough, perhaps no one will be making film emulsions. Until that day comes, live it up.
On a personal note: I have shot thousands of images. I still have no clue what I'm doing. I have an M8 I enjoy, but I have nowhere near mastered it yet. It will wear out before I do. I'm still learning how to use film after 30+ years of farting around with it. I still shoot lots of film, more than I used to even. Are there subjective and qualitative differences between them? Sure. Are they the reason that I'm never happy with my output? Hell no. They are tools. The problem in my case is the operator. He has a lot to learn in the film world and the digital world. Both mediums have plenty of possibilities. I don't suggest that you wait, holding your breath, until either you or I exhaust those possibilities.
If you don't like the work others are making, make your own exactly the way you want (and post it here for the rest of us to see, please). Push that boulder up the hill. Rinse and repeat, Sisyphus-like, until you get the results you want. And if you never get the results you want, then maybe the point isn't in the destination but in the journey. (I can mix metaphors with the best of them.)
Dammit, man, relax and have fun. And, if you're not having fun, then rent The Philadelphia Story and consider what your namesake would do in this situation.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
....
Obviously there was less "magic" in film back when everyone on the planet had to use it...
Yup. It was simply how you did photography. Now we can choose between two capture mediums .. Photography is expanded.
G
KM-25
Well-known
Good point. Especially when going through pre ~1995 issues of Popular Photography (US), Chasseur d´Images (FR), Color Foto (DE) or the BJP (UK). Most of what is printed there is mediocre at best.
Obviously there was less "magic" in film back when everyone on the planet had to use it...
1995....I was blazing the trail with digital full time then but also using film because it was and is pure magic compared to the drudgery of digital. And why were you looking at those garbage magazines that catered to the amateur gear head when fine pubs like PDN, Communication Arts not to mention Nat Geo were showing you the real goods?......ah, never mind, Lol!
Too many afraid fo change here... it's inevitible though.
FrankS
Registered User
Not afraid, it's just my choice. That's okay isn't it?
It isn't at all necessary to judge choices other people make.
I think that most of us have moved past the digital vs film animosity.
It isn't at all necessary to judge choices other people make.
I think that most of us have moved past the digital vs film animosity.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
Is it fear? Or the lack of something better or better suited to someone's individual needs?
Personal choice trumps the 'inevitable' change being forced upon someone.
Of course it is ok. I'm not judging anyone because I love all photographic mediums. However, since change is inevitible, I don't stress it when things don't go my way. If one isn't interested in digital photography, then don't do it and don't pay attention to it in any concentrated manner. Film photography still exists and there are still plenty of great venues showing photography. To come on the internet and bitch and complain about digital photography and the masses seems ridiculous to me. Just ignore what you don't like. To me, it always seems that the ones that complain do not change and adapt. When you do this for a living, you have to change and adapt. When you do this for fun, you can simply ignore what you don't like and concentrate on what you do.
All of that said, I do feel for the Pros who used to make money from Photography and now cannot due to the proliferation of mediocre images available for free. Also, I feel bad when those who make a living from Photography get ripped off. That seems to be the negatives of digital and the internet.
The fact is that the general public does not know how to read images in a complicated manner and cannot appreciate photography in the way that all of us who love it can. Photography is so ubiquitous that it's lost its worth to many in the general public.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
You see, when thing's don't go your way some don't like to have to adapt for the sake of change especially when they see no benefit.
So if things really don't go my way I do sometimes feel frustrated especially when alternatives don't exist. To accept having to adapt to another persons thinking for the sake of change doesn't suit everyone.
I guess that's why some people vent, its not silly or ridiculous more human nature I'd say.
But with regard to film vs. digital, alternatives exist. I'm not saying you need to be happy about change. Also, living in this world is all about adapting to another person's thinking. Most of us didn't create any laws or rules.
Photo_Smith
Well-known
That's not true. Since the advent of digital alternatives have diminished-try printing transparencies on an enlarger and a whole host of things, that is why people like the OP 'rant'
For quite a few film users digital technology has been a disruptive medium WRT choice. Your attitude seems to be 'my way or the highway'.
Although you're not saying you need to be happy about change, you are saying you need to accept it and 'move on' and how ridiculous it is to complain on a forum about your choices being reduced in the face of that change.
Also I wasn't trying to be obtuse about adapting to another's thinking, it obviously applied to the subject of the thread and not the rule of law, democracy or paying taxes to receive services.
I was purely relating the comments to photography and the individual pursuit of that particular pastime.
thegman
Mentor
Change is inevitable, of course, but a resistance to certain change is not the same as fear. Liking one thing is not the same as disliking another.
It may be inevitable that books will move entirely to digital publication, so do I need to stop reading paper books now? It's possible at some point, no-one will make Tourbillon watches, so should nobody want to own one? Maybe Port Ellen will finally close for good and not make any more of their whisky, so I should stop drinking it now?
Calling choosing to shoot film a fear of change is simply not understanding what drives many people.
Fair enough PS. Let me clarify. I think that if you are in business and you need to make money, then you either need to adapt and change or find your niche. Complaning about it won't change it generally speaking. That's my opinion. It may be wrong.
Alternatives have diminished? They may be harder to find or do, but they haven't disappeared. I would say we have more processes are available to us today than at any time in photography's history. Try printing transparencies? Are we talking of cibachromes because I have printed those in a wet darkroom and to me it was never fun. I don't miss it. I'm not new to photography. I've done c-prints, B&W, cibachromes, van dyke brown, cyanotypes, etc. in the past and feel digital is just another process. Not inferior or superior...
Not sure why you think I think it is my way or the highway... since I don't have a particular way I think photography should be done. One shoukld use what works for their photography.
AGAIN, when I talk of adpating to change, I'm strictly speaking of people who make a living with Photography and not those of us who do it for pleasure.
Alternatives have diminished? They may be harder to find or do, but they haven't disappeared. I would say we have more processes are available to us today than at any time in photography's history. Try printing transparencies? Are we talking of cibachromes because I have printed those in a wet darkroom and to me it was never fun. I don't miss it. I'm not new to photography. I've done c-prints, B&W, cibachromes, van dyke brown, cyanotypes, etc. in the past and feel digital is just another process. Not inferior or superior...
Not sure why you think I think it is my way or the highway... since I don't have a particular way I think photography should be done. One shoukld use what works for their photography.
AGAIN, when I talk of adpating to change, I'm strictly speaking of people who make a living with Photography and not those of us who do it for pleasure.
Denton
Established
Process = State of Mind
Process = State of Mind
I draw. Pick up a pencil and something happens in my brain. Doesn't happen with a Wacom digital tablet; but it Could.
Pick up a film camera, feel the attitude. Pick up a digital with 16GB card, is there a difference for you?
How you feel is critical to how you see and perform, isn't it?
Hmm, I wonder if I could put a 100 MB card in my digital camera and feel the same thing as film?
Denton
Process = State of Mind
I draw. Pick up a pencil and something happens in my brain. Doesn't happen with a Wacom digital tablet; but it Could.
Pick up a film camera, feel the attitude. Pick up a digital with 16GB card, is there a difference for you?
How you feel is critical to how you see and perform, isn't it?
Hmm, I wonder if I could put a 100 MB card in my digital camera and feel the same thing as film?
Denton
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Nicely phrased. Only a fool embraces change for the sake of change, or because it is 'inevitable' -- which, of course, it isn't, unless you choose to embrace it or because (much more rarely) you are forced to embrace it because, as in your example, paper books cease to exist.
Cheers,
R.
daveleo
what?
You know, to each his own.
I can't draw or paint (I have tried both many times), but I can make nice pictures using the very high technology (by comparison to pencils and pigments) of a camera. Everyone needs to decide how much "technology" they will allow into their creative process. Some people stop at film. Okay.