existrandom
Established
Hello all
This is my first time posting on this sub-forum; I did some search but i can't quite follow all the stuff i read. I would like someone more knowledgeable to clear some of my confusion. I have a few questions about Arista Premium 400 (Tri-X re-branded)
I can't develop my film at home (it's not time/cost effective at the time being) and i have been sending my films to a pro shop to develop and scan at a somewhat affordable price...
the shop owner tells me he uses D76 1:1, 20C, and his develop time for Tri-X is about 9:45
i guess what he told me all sound good, but you know shop owner have moods and different contingencies, especially when he deals with assorted films speed/makes for many clients in a development session... results don't come out constant... another thing i don't know is his agitation routine
I am most confused with what instruction to give when i am not shooting at the box speed of ISO 400
if you change EI, say, expose at ISO 250, or 320 setting, do you
A) shorten your develop time accordingly?
OR,
B) keep develop time constant as suggested for ISO 400 and "over-expose" in effect
Is there any general advice about exposing and developing this Arista Premium? most of my stuff would be output digitally, prints go no wider than 12 inch.
I am planning to stick with one film... i used to have a cheap local supply for Neopan 400, but it is getting very expensive over the last year and ordering Arista from freestyle seems the cheapest deal now
Many Thanks in advance
Cheers!
This is my first time posting on this sub-forum; I did some search but i can't quite follow all the stuff i read. I would like someone more knowledgeable to clear some of my confusion. I have a few questions about Arista Premium 400 (Tri-X re-branded)
I can't develop my film at home (it's not time/cost effective at the time being) and i have been sending my films to a pro shop to develop and scan at a somewhat affordable price...
the shop owner tells me he uses D76 1:1, 20C, and his develop time for Tri-X is about 9:45
i guess what he told me all sound good, but you know shop owner have moods and different contingencies, especially when he deals with assorted films speed/makes for many clients in a development session... results don't come out constant... another thing i don't know is his agitation routine
I am most confused with what instruction to give when i am not shooting at the box speed of ISO 400
if you change EI, say, expose at ISO 250, or 320 setting, do you
A) shorten your develop time accordingly?
OR,
B) keep develop time constant as suggested for ISO 400 and "over-expose" in effect
Is there any general advice about exposing and developing this Arista Premium? most of my stuff would be output digitally, prints go no wider than 12 inch.
I am planning to stick with one film... i used to have a cheap local supply for Neopan 400, but it is getting very expensive over the last year and ordering Arista from freestyle seems the cheapest deal now
Many Thanks in advance
Cheers!
filmfan
Well-known
I expose Tri-X/Arista Premium 400 @320 and develop for the 400 time. When the light it super bright and contrasty, I shoot the film @200 and pull development (shorten) by about a minute and a half or so.
Tri-X and D76 is all anyone needs.
Tri-X and D76 is all anyone needs.
John Cox
Member
I shoot at box speed but use a different developer (HC 110). I'm also a fan of longer developing times and higher dilutions. But I started out going to a lab with tri x and exposing at ei 320 (for shadow detail), I had the lab develop regularly and so made no special instructions. Occasionally I do pull down to 200 or push up to 1600 at home and in those cases I adjust developing time accordingly.
There's really nothing tri x can't do.
There's really nothing tri x can't do.
*chris
Established
im also curious what to do when you don't have a camera that has 320. my oly 35 rc only has 400 then 250 and from what i understand either one is only a third of a stop under and over exposed
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I shoot it at 320 and develop for 9 minutes in D-76 1+1 at 68 degrees. If your camera doesn't have a 320 ISO setting, either 400 or 250 will probably work.
John Cox
Member
There's a couple options in this situation. You can compensate manually by half a stop. -set the camera to 250 and close up on the aperture by a half click (if there are no half click stops just move the aperture half way). Or you could also set the camera to 250 and set the exposure compensation dial -0.5 if that's an option. This is the better way of dealing with since you could use that half stop on shutter or aperture this way.
Keep in mind most films have 2-4 stop latitude so small offsets are fine.
*chris
Established
cool thanks guys. im currently awaiting my shipment of arista premium, rodinal and tf5 from freestyle!
ill just try a couple rolls at 250 and 400 and see which ones i like more
ill just try a couple rolls at 250 and 400 and see which ones i like more
Pioneer
Mentor
Test for Yourself
Test for Yourself
This got way too wordy, but here goes anyway.
It may be difficult to give you a complete answer because there are things we don't know. Lots of them in fact. Here are just a couple questions that pop into my mind immediately, and I am certainly not an expert.
First question, why would you want to change your exposure index to 320 or 250? What do your negatives look like right now? Do they look bad so you think you need a change, or did you read somewhere that you should expose Tri-X at EI 320? I ask because I expose Tri-X at 400 and it works great for me. I love my negatives and they print great. You need to base your changes on your negative, not on some comment you read from someone on the net. If you are adjusting because your negatives do not look good, or print well, then you may not want to change the actual developing time at first until you can see the changes and decide from that where you want to go. Introducing too many variables in the beginning can only cause problems. Only change one variable at a time and then check your results before deciding what to do next.
Second question, does your pro lab develop your film using continuous agitation or do they agitate occasionally? If they agitate continuously then their timing will be a bit different than someone here on the forum who is doing their developing in tanks and agitating for 5 seconds every 30 seconds or every minute. I would talk with the shop owner first and get his perspective and advice. You said he is a pro lab, he should be able to tell you where to start...and even if he thinks you need to.
These forums are great. They can introduce you to a lot of things you never thought of before. But in the end the negative and print is your own. Start with the manufacturer's advice and then make adjustments only to improve your negative and your print. If you think that your exposure index for Tri-X may be wrong, do some testing for yourself. There are even places you can send your negatives where they can actually measure the density of your negative and give you some good advice. But remember, that advice will only apply to that camera and that film, and maybe even specific to that particular lens.
Sometimes changing something as simple as a batch number of film can result in changes to your exposure index, particularly when dealing with store branded products like Arista Premium. It may seem like Tri-X. It may develop similar to Tri-X. But there is a chance that using Tri-X itself could produce differences that you may not understand if you use your exposure index for Arista Premium with it.
Anyway, have fun playing and experimenting. I am learning so much that sometimes my head swims, but there are two things I have learned for sure. First, do your own testing because things may turn out differently then others would have you believe. Second, change only one variable at a time. Remember, although many of the people in this forum are very good photographers, and know a lot about what they are discussing, the things they are recommending work for them, and their cameras, and their shooting styles, and their batch of film. They did their own testing in most cases.
There are so many variables in this business that it is very hard to do anything but take general guidance from the advice you get from these forums, as good as the advice may seem at times. Until you do your own testing and experimenting you will not know if it actually works for you.
Test for Yourself
Hello all
This is my first time posting on this sub-forum; I did some search but i can't quite follow all the stuff i read. I would like someone more knowledgeable to clear some of my confusion. I have a few questions about Arista Premium 400 (Tri-X re-branded)
I can't develop my film at home (it's not time/cost effective at the time being) and i have been sending my films to a pro shop to develop and scan at a somewhat affordable price...
the shop owner tells me he uses D76 1:1, 20C, and his develop time for Tri-X is about 9:45
i guess what he told me all sound good, but you know shop owner have moods and different contingencies, especially when he deals with assorted films speed/makes for many clients in a development session... results don't come out constant... another thing i don't know is his agitation routine
I am most confused with what instruction to give when i am not shooting at the box speed of ISO 400
if you change EI, say, expose at ISO 250, or 320 setting, do you
A) shorten your develop time accordingly?
OR,
B) keep develop time constant as suggested for ISO 400 and "over-expose" in effect
Is there any general advice about exposing and developing this Arista Premium? most of my stuff would be output digitally, prints go no wider than 12 inch.
I am planning to stick with one film... i used to have a cheap local supply for Neopan 400, but it is getting very expensive over the last year and ordering Arista from freestyle seems the cheapest deal now
Many Thanks in advance
Cheers!
This got way too wordy, but here goes anyway.
It may be difficult to give you a complete answer because there are things we don't know. Lots of them in fact. Here are just a couple questions that pop into my mind immediately, and I am certainly not an expert.
First question, why would you want to change your exposure index to 320 or 250? What do your negatives look like right now? Do they look bad so you think you need a change, or did you read somewhere that you should expose Tri-X at EI 320? I ask because I expose Tri-X at 400 and it works great for me. I love my negatives and they print great. You need to base your changes on your negative, not on some comment you read from someone on the net. If you are adjusting because your negatives do not look good, or print well, then you may not want to change the actual developing time at first until you can see the changes and decide from that where you want to go. Introducing too many variables in the beginning can only cause problems. Only change one variable at a time and then check your results before deciding what to do next.
Second question, does your pro lab develop your film using continuous agitation or do they agitate occasionally? If they agitate continuously then their timing will be a bit different than someone here on the forum who is doing their developing in tanks and agitating for 5 seconds every 30 seconds or every minute. I would talk with the shop owner first and get his perspective and advice. You said he is a pro lab, he should be able to tell you where to start...and even if he thinks you need to.
These forums are great. They can introduce you to a lot of things you never thought of before. But in the end the negative and print is your own. Start with the manufacturer's advice and then make adjustments only to improve your negative and your print. If you think that your exposure index for Tri-X may be wrong, do some testing for yourself. There are even places you can send your negatives where they can actually measure the density of your negative and give you some good advice. But remember, that advice will only apply to that camera and that film, and maybe even specific to that particular lens.
Sometimes changing something as simple as a batch number of film can result in changes to your exposure index, particularly when dealing with store branded products like Arista Premium. It may seem like Tri-X. It may develop similar to Tri-X. But there is a chance that using Tri-X itself could produce differences that you may not understand if you use your exposure index for Arista Premium with it.
Anyway, have fun playing and experimenting. I am learning so much that sometimes my head swims, but there are two things I have learned for sure. First, do your own testing because things may turn out differently then others would have you believe. Second, change only one variable at a time. Remember, although many of the people in this forum are very good photographers, and know a lot about what they are discussing, the things they are recommending work for them, and their cameras, and their shooting styles, and their batch of film. They did their own testing in most cases.
There are so many variables in this business that it is very hard to do anything but take general guidance from the advice you get from these forums, as good as the advice may seem at times. Until you do your own testing and experimenting you will not know if it actually works for you.
existrandom
Established
thanks everyone for your sound advice, learnt a lot here as always
i am only starting to learn about B/W.
it had been hit and miss before, because the shops in Hong Kong i went to gave fluctuating results and sometime handled the developing carelessly... until i found the current one in Taiwan
Pioneer,
thanks for your elaborate input! my follow up questions are also wordy, my apologies first.
i want to try differnt ISO to see for the differences myself
i am also confused about shooting different ISOs and exposure compensation
in a high contrast scene for example, whether i should "over expose" (eg. 1/3 stop or 1/2 stop against camera meter set at box speed) in order to see more shadow detail
my understanding is that the camera meter usually designated "correct" exposure for medium grey and it works with mostly averagely contrast scene with even lighting
but it is not often the cases in street candid situation
another problem is that i often shoot a roll in varied situations, sometime i have fews ones in the day, few in the evening, outdoor and indoor... obvious reason is that i don't have many cameras to have each loaded with different films...
what i tended to do is to shoot indoor scenes with abit lower ISO setting (with the understanding that film is less sensitive to neon and lamp light than daylight) i would set the camera's ISO setting to 250 or 320
and in the evening street or similar situation i open up at F2 and shoot away with handheldable speed ranging 1/8 to 1/50
so i guess i am mixing it all up....
i am only starting to learn about B/W.
it had been hit and miss before, because the shops in Hong Kong i went to gave fluctuating results and sometime handled the developing carelessly... until i found the current one in Taiwan
Pioneer,
thanks for your elaborate input! my follow up questions are also wordy, my apologies first.
i want to try differnt ISO to see for the differences myself
i am also confused about shooting different ISOs and exposure compensation
in a high contrast scene for example, whether i should "over expose" (eg. 1/3 stop or 1/2 stop against camera meter set at box speed) in order to see more shadow detail
my understanding is that the camera meter usually designated "correct" exposure for medium grey and it works with mostly averagely contrast scene with even lighting
but it is not often the cases in street candid situation
another problem is that i often shoot a roll in varied situations, sometime i have fews ones in the day, few in the evening, outdoor and indoor... obvious reason is that i don't have many cameras to have each loaded with different films...
what i tended to do is to shoot indoor scenes with abit lower ISO setting (with the understanding that film is less sensitive to neon and lamp light than daylight) i would set the camera's ISO setting to 250 or 320
and in the evening street or similar situation i open up at F2 and shoot away with handheldable speed ranging 1/8 to 1/50
so i guess i am mixing it all up....
Pioneer
Mentor
I am learning much of this myself so others may be better able to provide expert guidance here, but this is how I am handling these issues now.
In very bright and contrasty situations I have two strategies. First, I add at least a stop of exposure, letting in more light than my meter would prefer. This is the strategy I move to when there is no specific part of the scene I want to highlight. On the other hand, if I do want to highlight something I typically meter off of a grey card which is in the same light as the object or person I want to highlight. This way I know my exposure is dead on for that person and the rest of the scene can take care of itself. In the case where I use a grey card, I do not add additional exposure beyond what the meter recommends. If I am still worried about the high contrast I can take care of some of that during developing.
Of course the above assumes you have time to adjust for each scenario. In true street photography time is not always available. In that case I take a reading off of a grey card in the sun and set my camera manually for that exposure. From that point I make any adjustments on the run without a meter. As an example, if my shot is in the sun I leave things alone, get a rough focus and grab the shot. If it is in normal shade then I typically slow down my shutter speed by a couple of stops. If it is really deep shade I slow things down by three stops. Obviously you can adjust your aperture as well so it just depends on your preference. For me, I usually need as much depth of field as I can get since my fast focus skills are still not terrific so I try to leave my aperture at f8 if possible.
If you don't shoot up a roll very fast and tend to shoot in different situations then you are far better off using a standard ISO setting and metering a grey card to establish your exposure range when things change dramatically. There are a couple of work arounds that I may consider for this. First, I hand roll my own film a lot and often roll 12 exposure rolls for this very reason. Second, you can also consider using chromogenic black and white as the developing time will remain the same even if you shoot part of the roll at ISO 400 and another part at ISO 200. The problem here is that I usually am not happy with chromogenic at ISO 800 or higher so I limit my ISO adjustment to about ISO 500 at the high end, and ISO 125 at the low end.
Others may chime in here with there own experiences, and I hope they do, but I never adjust my ISO on the same roll unless I am working with chromogenic films.
As for working under artificial lighting, on black and white I do not normally see big issues (although that may only be my own inexperience talking.) Unless there is an over riding need to use natural light indoors I love to work with fill flash. I have a couple of older fixed lens rangefinders, and one very nice Contaflex SLR, that use leaf shutters so I can fire my Vivitar flash on 1/16 or 1/8 power all evening long at any shutter speed the camera has. Flash tends to cancel out tungsten or fluorescent. However I do frequently use filters when working with color such as Portra.
I hope I may have answered a few of your questions but there are certainly others on this forum who are far more experience than I.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Since Arista Premium is Tri-X and Kodak has much information about Tri-X, it is really worthwhile downloading the 12 page Kodak Tri-X technical publication and digesting it. Since it is actual scientific data and not internet talk, you must put a little bit of brain power into it. But the actual answers to your questions are there. Pay attention to the different shapes of the curves from different exposures, development times and developers.