Happyshopper
Newbie
Hello lovely forumites, I have a couple of questions that I'd like to get answered roughly before venturing out into the field with my new self defense bludgeoning instrument and part time camera.
I've been lusting after TLRs for a few months, there's something about medium format and TLRs specifically that really appeals to me for some reason. In the end the interchangable lenses won out and I started looking at the Mamiya C series, and have since aquired a shabby yet working condition C2 (without viewfinder cover) and equally shabby yet working condition 180mm lens. So here are my questions:
1. What is a sensible shutter speed to work down to handheld? 1/focal length works roughly speaking for 35mm/FF DSLR but I don't know how well that translates into MF, if at all. I'm only after a vague estimation by the way, I know it'll vary from person to person.
2. On the 180mm Seikosha-S lens on the shutter cocking side there's an X / M selector. What's that all about? I'm guessing flash sync or something but I know very little about flash photography in general...
3. I assume I can get away without a viewfinder cover by fashioning one from cardboard for the time being as long as I don't want to shoot at eye level?
4. My only light meter is an old Hyper VII (by Unittic in this case but the brand varies where the model name stays the same - some are branded Tower or Sunscope) which I assume will meter light at a much wider angle than the 180mm lens. Does anyone have a similar experience and any tips for metering with this kind of meter? Or is it a case of just metering closer to the subject and hoping for the best?
Thanks for any info you can share! I'm looking forward to shooting with it for the first time this weekend if possible, should be fun
I've been lusting after TLRs for a few months, there's something about medium format and TLRs specifically that really appeals to me for some reason. In the end the interchangable lenses won out and I started looking at the Mamiya C series, and have since aquired a shabby yet working condition C2 (without viewfinder cover) and equally shabby yet working condition 180mm lens. So here are my questions:
1. What is a sensible shutter speed to work down to handheld? 1/focal length works roughly speaking for 35mm/FF DSLR but I don't know how well that translates into MF, if at all. I'm only after a vague estimation by the way, I know it'll vary from person to person.
2. On the 180mm Seikosha-S lens on the shutter cocking side there's an X / M selector. What's that all about? I'm guessing flash sync or something but I know very little about flash photography in general...
3. I assume I can get away without a viewfinder cover by fashioning one from cardboard for the time being as long as I don't want to shoot at eye level?
4. My only light meter is an old Hyper VII (by Unittic in this case but the brand varies where the model name stays the same - some are branded Tower or Sunscope) which I assume will meter light at a much wider angle than the 180mm lens. Does anyone have a similar experience and any tips for metering with this kind of meter? Or is it a case of just metering closer to the subject and hoping for the best?
Thanks for any info you can share! I'm looking forward to shooting with it for the first time this weekend if possible, should be fun
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
1. This is a leaf shutter, so there is less concern about camera shake. You could probably do 1/125 without problems.
2. Yes, flash synch. X is electronic flash.
3. Not sure what you mean by "viewfinder cover." You mean right now you just have the groundglass focusing screen? No folding cover? You really need to get one, or else focusing can be a chore -- these should be easily available.
4. You've got the idea right for metering with the handheld. If you have a smartphone, there are some free lightmeter apps that are pretty darn good -- go look for them.
2. Yes, flash synch. X is electronic flash.
3. Not sure what you mean by "viewfinder cover." You mean right now you just have the groundglass focusing screen? No folding cover? You really need to get one, or else focusing can be a chore -- these should be easily available.
4. You've got the idea right for metering with the handheld. If you have a smartphone, there are some free lightmeter apps that are pretty darn good -- go look for them.
Bill Clark
Mentor
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
I give a try, others will add and/or correct:
(1) Usually a lens of focal length roughly equal to the diagonal of the negative is considered "normal" (whatever that means) from this you should be able to do the maths for any format. This makes somehow a 80mm lens "standard" for 6x6. As for the shutter speed I think it goes similar as with any format, you have an idea that probably around 1/60 (or 1/50th if you have a European shutter) is ok with normal focal length intended as above but then you have to do your trials and se how steady you are and how blurry is acceptable for you.
(2) X/M should be about with which flashes synchronize. M is bulbs, X should stand for "Xenon", that's for electronic flashes.
(3) A cover is just a cover and of course you can do with whatever you have at hand, even your jacket put over the head.
(4) Light meter has nothing to do with the camera format. If you can go for incident metering otherwise if you only have a reflected light meter which does not accept a spot accessory what you can do if measuring in several directions to estimate the latitude and try to be just in the middle of it, just to register both shadows and high light, otherwise if you want to meter for a specific part (e.g. a face in a portrait) get closed enough so that despite the large angle covered by your meter you are measuring only what you need to measure. If nothing of this is possible the "try and hope for the best" is always an option...
I hope this helps.
GLF
(1) Usually a lens of focal length roughly equal to the diagonal of the negative is considered "normal" (whatever that means) from this you should be able to do the maths for any format. This makes somehow a 80mm lens "standard" for 6x6. As for the shutter speed I think it goes similar as with any format, you have an idea that probably around 1/60 (or 1/50th if you have a European shutter) is ok with normal focal length intended as above but then you have to do your trials and se how steady you are and how blurry is acceptable for you.
(2) X/M should be about with which flashes synchronize. M is bulbs, X should stand for "Xenon", that's for electronic flashes.
(3) A cover is just a cover and of course you can do with whatever you have at hand, even your jacket put over the head.
(4) Light meter has nothing to do with the camera format. If you can go for incident metering otherwise if you only have a reflected light meter which does not accept a spot accessory what you can do if measuring in several directions to estimate the latitude and try to be just in the middle of it, just to register both shadows and high light, otherwise if you want to meter for a specific part (e.g. a face in a portrait) get closed enough so that despite the large angle covered by your meter you are measuring only what you need to measure. If nothing of this is possible the "try and hope for the best" is always an option...
I hope this helps.
GLF
williams473
Well-known
Hi there Happy...
That's my favorite camera you have there - you should enjoy it.
As far as how slow a shutter speed can be hand held, it varies... if you brace the camera into your body (which is one of the advantages of top-down viewing in my opinion) combined with the a very smooth shutter release these cameras have, you can shoot quite long exposures. I've gotten good stuff down to 1/8 - 1/15... course that doesn't mean the things moving in front of the frame will slow down however... If you have the option, you can always use impromptu objects to stabilize the camera too - benches, buildings, trees etc. As a rule, you generally don't want to try hand-holding below 1/60, but that's just a guideline. Keep in mind that your long lens will accentuate camera movement, so you may want to keep it in the 1/60-1/125 range.
You are right about the selector on the lens - it's for X-synch and manual connections to a strobe. You're not using flash so it won't come into play...
About the lens - the 180mm lens in 6x6 format is significantly telephoto, so bear in mind that if you are close to subjects you will need to take into account the difference in what you are seeing through the viewing lens and what the taking lens is "seeing." There are two lines on the ground glass to assist with this. Just place the bottom line where the top one was and you've corrected for the error - but you only need to do this at very close range. I'm sure you could find someone who's posted the exact numbers. This will come into play more with that lens than with the normal 80mm or the wide 55mm.
For the time being, sure, you can fashion a hood for the top, but these cameras are plentiful, so just keep your eyes peeled for a junker and pick it up for parts. The ground glass isn't particularly bright even with the factory hoods so you need all the darkness you can get. Plus you are deprived of the magnifying focusing loupe that flips up in the viewing hood. I use that a lot for critical focus, and I routinely use mine in public situations where I need to be fast - it's a great feature. So if you like working with the camera, I would grab one of those hoods as soon as you can.
As long as your light meter is accurate, you are good to go. There is no correlation between the angle of view of your lens and a separate light meter. If it is an incident meter and not a reflective one. Reflective are the ones in most modern cameras and measure light through the lens, which is what you may be thinking of - sounds like you might have an incident meter, which takes a general, wide view of the whole scene and average the values to give you a shutter speed and aperture setting) If you are shooting negative film and your light stays about the same, you can meter once, set it on the C220 and roll. If you happen to have an SLR with a good meter, you could always use that too - I did for years...)
Or, do as I do now and just keep the incident meter handy and make periodic measurements when you are confronted with changing light and/or subject matter.
Good luck with it!
Matt
That's my favorite camera you have there - you should enjoy it.
As far as how slow a shutter speed can be hand held, it varies... if you brace the camera into your body (which is one of the advantages of top-down viewing in my opinion) combined with the a very smooth shutter release these cameras have, you can shoot quite long exposures. I've gotten good stuff down to 1/8 - 1/15... course that doesn't mean the things moving in front of the frame will slow down however... If you have the option, you can always use impromptu objects to stabilize the camera too - benches, buildings, trees etc. As a rule, you generally don't want to try hand-holding below 1/60, but that's just a guideline. Keep in mind that your long lens will accentuate camera movement, so you may want to keep it in the 1/60-1/125 range.
You are right about the selector on the lens - it's for X-synch and manual connections to a strobe. You're not using flash so it won't come into play...
About the lens - the 180mm lens in 6x6 format is significantly telephoto, so bear in mind that if you are close to subjects you will need to take into account the difference in what you are seeing through the viewing lens and what the taking lens is "seeing." There are two lines on the ground glass to assist with this. Just place the bottom line where the top one was and you've corrected for the error - but you only need to do this at very close range. I'm sure you could find someone who's posted the exact numbers. This will come into play more with that lens than with the normal 80mm or the wide 55mm.
For the time being, sure, you can fashion a hood for the top, but these cameras are plentiful, so just keep your eyes peeled for a junker and pick it up for parts. The ground glass isn't particularly bright even with the factory hoods so you need all the darkness you can get. Plus you are deprived of the magnifying focusing loupe that flips up in the viewing hood. I use that a lot for critical focus, and I routinely use mine in public situations where I need to be fast - it's a great feature. So if you like working with the camera, I would grab one of those hoods as soon as you can.
As long as your light meter is accurate, you are good to go. There is no correlation between the angle of view of your lens and a separate light meter. If it is an incident meter and not a reflective one. Reflective are the ones in most modern cameras and measure light through the lens, which is what you may be thinking of - sounds like you might have an incident meter, which takes a general, wide view of the whole scene and average the values to give you a shutter speed and aperture setting) If you are shooting negative film and your light stays about the same, you can meter once, set it on the C220 and roll. If you happen to have an SLR with a good meter, you could always use that too - I did for years...)
Or, do as I do now and just keep the incident meter handy and make periodic measurements when you are confronted with changing light and/or subject matter.
Good luck with it!
Matt
Happyshopper
Newbie
Thanks for the responces so far! Extremely helpful!
Yes the light meter is an incident meter so I'll get a bit creative when sorting that out. I know I can use my DSLR (D300) but that sort of feels like cheating!
I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a viewfinder hood WLF jobby but until then it sounds like I can make do, Blue Peter style. I wasn't aware that there was a focusing aid in the hood though, that's definitely a plus! I'm keeping the cost down to the bare minimum so it might take a while.
I've downloaded Mr Patterson's pdf which will be helpful for parallax issues close up, I'll make sure I'm familiar with that.
Thanks again!
Yes the light meter is an incident meter so I'll get a bit creative when sorting that out. I know I can use my DSLR (D300) but that sort of feels like cheating!
I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a viewfinder hood WLF jobby but until then it sounds like I can make do, Blue Peter style. I wasn't aware that there was a focusing aid in the hood though, that's definitely a plus! I'm keeping the cost down to the bare minimum so it might take a while.
I've downloaded Mr Patterson's pdf which will be helpful for parallax issues close up, I'll make sure I'm familiar with that.
Thanks again!
Happyshopper
Newbie
Ooooh, one more question : The WLF hood jobbies fr the C series, are they universal like the lenses or so I need a C2 specific one?
Ming Rider
Film, the next evolution.
Here's a free Mamiya C Guide pdf that you might find helpful http://www.cameramanuals.org/mamiya_pdf/mamiya_c_guide.pdf
I have a C33 Pro. They're incredibly well built and heavy cameras and like you say, handy for beating off subjects that object to being photographed.
I have a C33 Pro. They're incredibly well built and heavy cameras and like you say, handy for beating off subjects that object to being photographed.
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
Why cheating? Nobody will know how you measured light from your pictures! Cheating is if you photoshop documentary pictures to be misleading of what happened in photojournalism or if you picture a product for an advertising and the product sold is not what is pictured...we are still aloud to measure light as we please!
GLF
mike rosenlof
Insufficient information
Mamiya TLR user for 30+ years now.
To your original questions:
1) It's very subjective as to what you consider acceptable sharpness and what your individual steadiness is. I think shooting with a WLF is a little less stable than at eye level, so I push for a little shorter exposure than I might with 35mm. Maybe 1/125 with the 180mm. The Mamiya TLRs are great on tripods.
2) yup, the M/X is flash sync. M for magnesium (bulbs) X for Xenon -- electronic flash. You'll probably want it on X and never moved.
3) Do you mean a Waist Level Finder -- sort of a viewing hood over the ground glass? Yes, you can use almost anything. One of the actual Mamiya hoods is awfully nice to have -- much more convenient.
4) I like incident metering. I've learned to work well with it. But any accurate meter is just fine with this or most other full manual camera types. With incident metering, you can usually hold the meter in "similar" light as your subject and you'll be fine. Just watch where the shadows are falling on the meter vs. where they are on the subject.
The WLF hood jobbies, "finders", Are I believe universal across the C series line. I like the chimney finder. It's bulky because it doesn't fold, but makes a very nice viewfinder. 6x at the center with the twist of a knob is great for fine focus. Finders are usually available at KEH.com, but as you said keeping costs minimal, a cloth over your head and a magnifier work.
As for Parallax, the difference between what the viewing and taking lenses see. You have 50mm between the lens centers. If the two lenses are perfectly parallel, you will get 50mm less than you see at the top of the frame and 50mm more at the bottom. As you can imagine, at close distances, even a head and shoulder portrait 50mm can be significant, but fairly easy to compensate.
have fun!
To your original questions:
1) It's very subjective as to what you consider acceptable sharpness and what your individual steadiness is. I think shooting with a WLF is a little less stable than at eye level, so I push for a little shorter exposure than I might with 35mm. Maybe 1/125 with the 180mm. The Mamiya TLRs are great on tripods.
2) yup, the M/X is flash sync. M for magnesium (bulbs) X for Xenon -- electronic flash. You'll probably want it on X and never moved.
3) Do you mean a Waist Level Finder -- sort of a viewing hood over the ground glass? Yes, you can use almost anything. One of the actual Mamiya hoods is awfully nice to have -- much more convenient.
4) I like incident metering. I've learned to work well with it. But any accurate meter is just fine with this or most other full manual camera types. With incident metering, you can usually hold the meter in "similar" light as your subject and you'll be fine. Just watch where the shadows are falling on the meter vs. where they are on the subject.
The WLF hood jobbies, "finders", Are I believe universal across the C series line. I like the chimney finder. It's bulky because it doesn't fold, but makes a very nice viewfinder. 6x at the center with the twist of a knob is great for fine focus. Finders are usually available at KEH.com, but as you said keeping costs minimal, a cloth over your head and a magnifier work.
As for Parallax, the difference between what the viewing and taking lenses see. You have 50mm between the lens centers. If the two lenses are perfectly parallel, you will get 50mm less than you see at the top of the frame and 50mm more at the bottom. As you can imagine, at close distances, even a head and shoulder portrait 50mm can be significant, but fairly easy to compensate.
have fun!
graywolf
Well-known
The rules of thumb are not exact. The 6x6 camera has a negative about 2.3x as large as a 35mm camera, so you can divide your focal length by 2 when using the 1/fl rule. So, with your 180mm that would give 1/90 second for your minimum shutter speed. That means that 1/125 would be a good starting point.
M is sync for medium peak flashbulbs, X is for strobe. On some cameras you should leave it on X as M can interfere with the self timer to the point of jamming up the shutter. Since it is unlikely you will be using flashbulbs, just leaving it on X is therefore a good idea. Some folks tape it so it can not move off X.
There was a time when I and about two other people on the web preached incident metering. It seems like we got our point across better than we ever thought. It has to be the lurkers, they read, they think about it, they try it, if it works, they adopt it. But what we see is 20 people posting that they never did it that way so it can't work. 90% of the time incident metering works best the other 10% you should use something else.
I agree with everyone else, keep and eye out for the proper folding focusing hood, in the mean time use whatever. I have on occasion, when the proper hood was not available, used one made with black foamcore and tape. Simply make a chimney by taping four pieces together, it will fold flat for storage.
M is sync for medium peak flashbulbs, X is for strobe. On some cameras you should leave it on X as M can interfere with the self timer to the point of jamming up the shutter. Since it is unlikely you will be using flashbulbs, just leaving it on X is therefore a good idea. Some folks tape it so it can not move off X.
There was a time when I and about two other people on the web preached incident metering. It seems like we got our point across better than we ever thought. It has to be the lurkers, they read, they think about it, they try it, if it works, they adopt it. But what we see is 20 people posting that they never did it that way so it can't work. 90% of the time incident metering works best the other 10% you should use something else.
I agree with everyone else, keep and eye out for the proper folding focusing hood, in the mean time use whatever. I have on occasion, when the proper hood was not available, used one made with black foamcore and tape. Simply make a chimney by taping four pieces together, it will fold flat for storage.
Allan Reade
Established
Hi Happyshopper,
I have a C3 with a 65 and 180 lens. The 180 works well for portraits and the 65 is a good slightly wideangle lens that is great for close-ups, just remember to allow for paralax (the viewing lens is 50mm higher than the taking lens) and increase the exposure to allow for bellows extension.
I'm sure you can get a finder hood fairly easily on eBay.
Happy shootin and please post some shots.
Allan
I have a C3 with a 65 and 180 lens. The 180 works well for portraits and the 65 is a good slightly wideangle lens that is great for close-ups, just remember to allow for paralax (the viewing lens is 50mm higher than the taking lens) and increase the exposure to allow for bellows extension.
I'm sure you can get a finder hood fairly easily on eBay.
Happy shootin and please post some shots.
Allan
Armoured
Well-known
Everyone here has given great answers to the questions. Two non-answers:
-I love my C330 but I find the longer lenses like the 180mm harder to use (when combined with the oddities of working with a reversed image, etc). Keep your eye out for the wider lenses, the 65mm and 80mm especially. They shouldn't be too expensive and in my opinion 'work' better with the TLR.
-The Mamiyas are beasts - fantastic pieces of equipment, but cumbersome. Keep your eye out for almost any of the 'standard' Rolleicord / Rolleiflex copies. If you're patient they can be found in good shape for not much money. Or borrow one from a friend if you can. The size and weight difference makes the experience completely different. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of their Mamiya (I like both types), but you may find the smaller/lighter works better _for you_.
-Agree on metering with those above. I'd add that learning the 'sunny 16' rule for outdoor work is really worthwhile, particularly if using black and white or colour negative film. It works pretty well on its own, and is also a good way to double check the results you get elsewhere - meaning if you take a reading and it is a lot different from sunny 16, you should be able to figure out why (or take an extra shot to be sure). You shoud be able to find a sunny 15 guide / cheat sheet you can prnt out and carry with you.
-I love my C330 but I find the longer lenses like the 180mm harder to use (when combined with the oddities of working with a reversed image, etc). Keep your eye out for the wider lenses, the 65mm and 80mm especially. They shouldn't be too expensive and in my opinion 'work' better with the TLR.
-The Mamiyas are beasts - fantastic pieces of equipment, but cumbersome. Keep your eye out for almost any of the 'standard' Rolleicord / Rolleiflex copies. If you're patient they can be found in good shape for not much money. Or borrow one from a friend if you can. The size and weight difference makes the experience completely different. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of their Mamiya (I like both types), but you may find the smaller/lighter works better _for you_.
-Agree on metering with those above. I'd add that learning the 'sunny 16' rule for outdoor work is really worthwhile, particularly if using black and white or colour negative film. It works pretty well on its own, and is also a good way to double check the results you get elsewhere - meaning if you take a reading and it is a lot different from sunny 16, you should be able to figure out why (or take an extra shot to be sure). You shoud be able to find a sunny 15 guide / cheat sheet you can prnt out and carry with you.