A Summing up- and a Decision

[Topdog1]

It could be cognitive dissonance: affirming that one's original bad decision was actually correct by doing it again. Or it could be that after all the griping, the problems are really minor and it really is a great camera after all.

/Ira

 

[Ken Tanaka]

I am confused by this entire thread.

It seems that everyone posting who has purchased a M8 now plans on purchasing a second one?

The actual number of such persons are few - but such a strategy will have the effect of doubling sales of the M8! At least for this "select group". This is a curious development - to say the least.

Since the reports I've heard are that this camera has many problems - isn't this strategy a bit like the gambler down on his luck deciding to "double or nothing"? I mean, why wouldn't a "first adopter" now wait for the problems to be resolved before buying a second camera?

Clearly, from a risk management standpoint - any wise current owner would wait for a resolution of the "issues" rather than do as the OP proposes.

Then again, perhaps the OP has a "not revealed agenda" for making such a grand pronouncement?

Hera always told me, burn me once,, shame on you; burn me twice, shame on me!!

This is a bit curious to me, too. Of course it's common for professional photographers to have at least one back-up camera body as insurance against equipment failure. I also imagine that two M bodies would be particularly handy for someone who routinely used only these cameras, given their intrinsic limitation of only being able to use prime (or, at best, multi-focal) lenses.

This all would make perfect sense for film M camera shooters. These cameras have been brought to near perfection, within their inherent limitations, over 50 years. It makes little sense with the newborn M8. Perhaps this is just the easiest way to get a second battery, since these are also apparently scarcer than honest politicians and the M8's battery life is reportedly quite short in cool/cold weather?

 

[Sailor Ted]

Perhaps this is just the easiest way to get a second battery, since these are also apparently scarcer than honest politicians and the M8's battery life is reportedly quite short in cool/cold weather?

ROFL

A bit like picking up a house and spining it in a circle to screw in a light bulb?

 

[shadowfox]

Well I wouldn't exactly call the market for used film cameras healthy, more like a bonanza for the small number of people, relative to digital, still interested in film.

Okay, let's have a look:
- Case A: My $700 Olympus E-300 is now sold at $400 after only 2 years.

- Case B: A new OM-4 retails at $600 (street price is about $400, but for the sake of the argument, let's use $600) in '85, now it's traded on eBoy for around 200-400 depending on condition

So we see the same decrease in price after ... let's see... 2 years for digital and 20 years for film!! THAT's what I mean by "healthy". And this cases are only for Olympus, I'm sure we can easily come up with the same cases Canons Nikons and Pentaxes and soon... thanks to M8, for Leicas also.

As for the size of the market, it's irrelevant, I said healthy, not humongous but I maintain that used digital cameras won't even have that small market 20 years from now.

 

[Plasmat]

It could be that many are purchasing a second M8 because the "problems" have been unduly blown wildly out of proportion by a bunch of mentally disturbed internet soap boxers who mix up their internal neurotic dramas with the their perceptions of a camera brand, and that the reality is that the M8 is very pleasing and takes fantastic images.

I ended up with three R-D1's. The problems never erased the reality that the camera was an exceptional device.

 

[jaapv]

M8 discussions over the last months have not only focused on the M8 forum.

Also, AFAIK, the M8 forum is open for contribution to ALL interested RFF members not only to owners.

And the worst remarks, IMO, are personal insults, like:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=443931#post443931

Nobody debates that you, Jaap, know what you are talking about. Also, where you put your money is your business. Good for you and good for Leitz if you like the M8.

But it is a big step from there to critizing other people voicing their opinion simply because they do not own an M8. It's just a camera, Jaap !!!

Roland.

Indeed a risky post, but an interesting example: not taken as an insult and the answer was a very nice one (now removed, unfortunately), explaining Ausdlk's motives, which turned out to have nothing to do with the M8, and it stopped the trolling.let's get back to the camera's....I certainly don't want to curtail your right to speak, Roland

 

[iml]

I don't own an M8, and its in-principle problems mean I am unlikely ever to, they are a compromise too far for me (others clearly think differently). Why not owning something should vitiate someone's opinions about it is beyond me.

I'm glad many M8 owners are happy with their cameras, but I find some of the hyperbole about its unmatched imaging qualities unlikely at best, based on posted examples. This isn't trouble-making, trolling, or an example of jealousy or neurosis, it's just an opinion about the gap between a claim and the evidence for that claim, there's no deep psychological issue revealed by expressing it, and I get - justifiably - irritated by comments suggesting otherwise.

Ian

 

[JohnL]

I've been following all this with close interest. I had intended to get an M8 just as soon as they became readily available. I don;t really care for paying a whole lot of cash to "reserve" one.
After all the brouhaha, I decided to wait until the dust settles and then decide. I am pretty certain that I will still get one, probably towards then second half of next year, provided a consensus emerges that the "issues" have been resolved. These include:
1 the magenta cast issue (which seems to have been resolved with IR cut filters - I don't really care for filters in general, but I could live with this),
2 the streaking and green blob issues (which seem to have been resolved with a hardware fix),
3 the new streaking issue (which seems to be something of a non-issue, and which only appears when high ISO shots are pushed even further in PP - way beyond the design capability of the camera),
4 the rainbow stripes issue (after switching on - I don't know much about this one)
5 the wild AWB issue (discussions of this one seem to have died down, and I suspect it was a side-effect of the IR issue - I could be wrong)
6 the 8-bit DNG question: this is not so much an issue but a pending question mark. It just seems weird to me, but if the (print) results are as good as people say, then I won't be getting worked up about this one - I'd just like to have an authoritative explanation.
Happy New Year to y'all !!!

 

[JohanV]

the 8-bit DNG question: this is not so much an issue but a pending question mark. It just seems weird to me, but if the (print) results are as good as people say, then I won't be getting worked up about this one - I'd just like to have an authoritative explanation.
Happy New Year to y'all !!!

There's a pretty authoritative explanation in this month's LFI; quite interesting reading on the other M8 'issues' too...

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Judging by your photographs, Ian, you're not suffering for lack of an M8 (or two). You're managing to do some very good work without it.

 

[iml]

Thanks Ken, very nice of you to say so. I don't feel like I'm suffering without an M8, and my bank manager would agree

Ian

 

[jaapv]

I don't own an M8, and its in-principle problems mean I am unlikely ever to, they are a compromise too far for me (others clearly think differently). Why not owning something should vitiate someone's opinions about it is beyond me.

I'm glad many M8 owners are happy with their cameras, but I find some of the hyperbole about its unmatched imaging qualities unlikely at best, based on posted examples. This isn't trouble-making, trolling, or an example of jealousy or neurosis, it's just an opinion about the gap between a claim and the evidence for that claim, there's no deep psychological issue revealed by expressing it, and I get - justifiably - irritated by comments suggesting otherwise.

Ian

I have the evidence for that claim here in my hands right now - I have some 60x40 cm professional prints made of my files. I cannot see how it could be better - even using 645 film....I wish there were a way to show them on the Internet
And to those (I said it before.) wondering about my two-body decision (I'm picking it up on Saturday) I travel to rural Africal regularly. Even with the Leica R system I found I needed more than one camera -I'm sure I'm not one of my insurance's favorite customers. I ended up with one R5 and two R7 bodies. I do agree that it seems extravagant. To me it is not. The decision means that I decided to go with digital for 99%.And that I could not find a better camera for it. I'm sure a future M9 (or Canon 1DmkIX or whatever) will be even better specified, and that there will be photographers able to make use of that. I, however, am not able to make better photographs than this camera takes, I´m not even able to reach the limits of the capabilities of this one, as a matter of fact.

 

[RObert Budding]

I have the evidence for that claim here in my hands right now - I have some 60x40 cm professional prints made of my files. I cannot see how it could be better - even using 645 film....I wish there were a way to show them on the Internet

I expect that the used prices for DSLRs will plummet because professionals will sell everything they own to buy M8s. I could buy a Leica M8 or a full frame Canon DSLR (5D) and several lenses. Or a Nikon DSLR and a large assortment of lenses for the price of an M8.

Leica is doomed if this is the best that they can do in digital photography. The M8 does not have an image quality advantage over DSLRs. And the price point is high enough that you could instead buy a used digital back for medium format.

 

[jaapv]

OK. So where is the rangefinder window on a 5D? And what does the camel cost you need to carry your medium format back and lenses? You totally miss the point. This is a RF camera with a IQ in the same range as any top-end camera, of which the cheapest is the 5D, with lenses that are not as good and far more bulk, to a DMR and R9 body, with lenses and pictorial quality about the same and more bulk, at about double the price af a M8. Or a 1DSII, at also nearly double the price and double the size. And we are comparing a Hummer to a Porsche.

 

[Latecomer]

I traded a Nikon D200, several lenses, flash and other equipment to get me in the hunt to buy the M8. The balance was still a large amount of money. You would have to call the M8's purchase absolute self-indulgence.

And do you know what? ... my pictures haven't improved! What's more without the 80-200mm I no longer have the reach, without the 12-24 I can't go seriously wide, without the 105 micro I can't even go small, without the grip and no spare batteries I can't even shoot all day, without the zooms I even have to walk around. My photography has been seriously restricted.

What has happened is I have faced the fact of my amateur status. With a 28, 35, 50 and 75 on the M8 there remain more photographic challenges than I will ever meet. And my experience so far with the M8 is that the attempt to meet my challenges will be joyful!

The D200 was and is a great camera. I enjoyed using it a lot. But the M8 demands a change in outlook, it is almost, for me, a new way of life.

Finally, when I bought the D200 the internet was a storm of criticism. Microbanding and God knows what else were thought to be issues that would kill the machine. But a lot of good folk are still in the queue to buy one. I suspect that current attacks on the M8 aare just as insecurely based as were those on the D200 In a year they will be history.

 

[BillRogers]

Latecomer - You really took a leap into the swimming pool! I decided to dangle my toes in the water first. I bought an eBay Zorki for $52 (including shipping) to supplement my D200, lenses, and flash. You not only gave up everything you mentioned, you also gave up the D200's advanced wireless lighting system. I would love to be able to afford an M8 system, but I love the D200 too much to give it up. Best wishes to you.

 

[jaapv]

Indeed a leap of faith,John. But for amateur use there is a lot to be said for a rangefinder system, as you seem to be finding out. I strongly suspect, that within a year there will be no way that you will ever consider SLR's again, except of course for macro and tele (although, when you have settled down, get an old Visoflex III and some old cheap lenses. It works a lot better than one might think.)

 

[HAnkg]

Canon's top of the line film camera the EOS-1V costs $1,649.95, the Leica M7 at 3,495.00 is almost double the price of the Canon (BH photo prices).

Canon's top of the line digital 1Ds MKII costs $6,799.95 almost 4x the cost of the film version.

Considering the astronomical price of it's film cameras the Leica M8 price of $4,795.00 would seem a step in the right direction. It is actually closing the price gap between Leica and Canon, although Leica's small size and volume pretty much guarantees a price premium for anything they produce.

The filter issue and shutter sound is something that is a problem for some and if not a non-issue, at least not a deal breaker for others. Image quality of cameras like the M8, 5D, 1Ds MK II and Nikon D2X are in the same league despite large differences in price. The 5d is less then 1/2 the price of the 1Ds MKII but certainly not 1/2 the quality image, however photographers who choose the 1Ds are rarely accused of being status seekers or idiots for spending more then twice the price of the 5D. Looking at images on the internet won't really tell you anything about any of the cameras quality, although downloading raw files will give you a pretty good idea. If you want to comment on image quality you should have a look at the raw files and make prints to compare to whatever your benchmark for excellence is. Most of what is posted online is crap no matter the camera.

I expect Leica will sell enough M8's to have made the M8 profitable, which may mean they will survive to produce an M9. That would be to the advantage of those who pass on the m8 but hope for a digital M that meets their requirements in the future.

 

[marbrink]

Is the use of IR filters a must? I'm thinking of buying a M8 now and wait for the two free IR filters, whenever you get them..
Is the magenta issue less now, with the latest firmware?
And lastly, where can I buy some IR filters? Heliopan or B+W.. seems to be impossible to find them.
Filters is not an issue for me becuase I always use UV filters anyway.

 

[rover]

I traded a Nikon D200, several lenses, flash and other equipment to get me in the hunt to buy the M8. The balance was still a large amount of money. You would have to call the M8's purchase absolute self-indulgence.

And do you know what? ... my pictures haven't improved! What's more without the 80-200mm I no longer have the reach, without the 12-24 I can't go seriously wide, without the 105 micro I can't even go small, without the grip and no spare batteries I can't even shoot all day, without the zooms I even have to walk around. My photography has been seriously restricted.

What has happened is I have faced the fact of my amateur status. With a 28, 35, 50 and 75 on the M8 there remain more photographic challenges than I will ever meet. And my experience so far with the M8 is that the attempt to meet my challenges will be joyful!

The D200 was and is a great camera. I enjoyed using it a lot. But the M8 demands a change in outlook, it is almost, for me, a new way of life.

Finally, when I bought the D200 the internet was a storm of criticism. Microbanding and God knows what else were thought to be issues that would kill the machine. But a lot of good folk are still in the queue to buy one. I suspect that current attacks on the M8 aare just as insecurely based as were those on the D200 In a year they will be history.

Nominated for one of the top posts ever at RFF.