It's a heartbreaker

As to the stacking of a polarizer onto an IR cut filter: yes that is necessary. Yes it flies into the face of all photographic wisdom to do so. But also yes - there is no problem. Why? because a polarizer works only when the light is at 90 degrees to the optical axis. A minimum flare situation.
 
I thought there was a forum rule; to start a 'hand wringing thread' you had to own the camera :confused:

but what do I know. I'm just a 64 year old youngster, enjoying his M8....

:)
 
julianphotoart said:
As for everyone else, I didn't mean to interrupt your arguing.
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Sounds like it may be time for some more Tim's coffee? :D

GO LEAFS GO!
Toronto 10 - Boston 2
 
Ken Tanaka said:
Today, however, the M8 is more of a curio than a practical camera.
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With all due respect ... Oh PLEASE. The rest of your post contradicts this, but just suppose for a moment that a pro (or "amateur" with an entrepreneurial bent) makes some photos with the M8 that sell and provide payback with one shoot. Is that a curio? Are you saying it won't ever happen?

Others added comments, and I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not trying to pile on. But man, think about stuff before you write it.

Yeah, it may not be worth it for you, but that hardly qualifies as a curio for everyone in the whole freakin world.

HOWEVER ... given your skill, I'd love to see an M8 in your hands....
 
rsl said:
Trius, I had four teenage sons at home. Get it now?
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Nope. 4 teenage sons, (presumably) 2 parents = 6 individuals. Seems like a pretty big house to me.
 
Russ: BTW, no animosity, I'm just playing my usual devil's advocate role. What matters are the pics. And the Leafs. :D
 
Trius said:
Nope. 4 teenage sons, (presumably) 2 parents = 6 individuals. Seems like a pretty big house to me.
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Five bedrooms, each with its own bathroom. One downstairs powder room, and one half-bath in the garage. Which one would you capture?
 
Trius said:
Russ: BTW, no animosity, I'm just playing my usual devil's advocate role. What matters are the pics. And the Leafs. :D
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Trius, No offense taken. It's a fair question. Yes, I agree that what really matters is the pics -- how they feel to you more importantly than how they feel to anyone else.

I've been selling prints out of four galleries in the Colorado Springs area for a few years, and I did a five-page full color spread in the December issue of Focus. But in the end, I'm a lot more interested in what I get with my camera than in what I sell, or what I show, or even what anyone else thinks about my stuff. What Cartier-Bresson meant by the "decisive moment" was the rush you get when everything suddenly comes together and you trip the shutter. That's really the end-all -- at least for your personal work. Last summer I spent nine days on the prairies in 106 degree weather shooting deserted farm houses and dying towns. Now, when I look at those prints with time captured in them like a bug in amber, the rush comes back. Nothing else I know of is quite like that.
 
pundit said:
I shot the attached shot with my Canon MKII 1DS and 14mm lens. The clang of the mirror and shutter was so loud, it woke up one of the sleepers who then (rightfully so) glared at me for the next 2 subway stops until I exited to proceed home.
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Then you will be horrified by the Leica as it sound like a small toy pistol going off. I was shocked at how loud it is.
 
Teething problems for digital products are common to all manufacturers. The Hassy H1 had lockup problems, Leaf has a disastrous problem with their current $30,000 back and its got to be at least a 5th gen product, they have been making digital backs as long as anyone. I've always found Apple computers to be very reliable. But the last desktop I got was a lemon, something about the build just never really worked right.

M compatible digital RF has some unique technical problems, so Leicas first effort has some unique compromises. But I have looked at some M8 RAW files, and the image quality is up there with cameras costing similar amounts. Digital is incrediblly expensive compared to the analog stuff it replaced. I paid $8000 for a 1Ds when it was Canon's flagship. A few years before I would have told you you were crazy if you told me I would be laying out that kind of dough for a Canon body (or even if you told me I'd be using a Canon). The 1Ds MKIIs is well over 6,000. despite the fact that you can get the 5D for less then half that. So the current Leica flagship is quite a bit less money then Canon's top of the line offering. I never thought I'd live to see that.

It's understandable if many will pass on being early adopters of Leica digital, it's generally a bad idea to be first in line for any new digital product. But to call the M8 a curio or a joke is nonsense. I've looked at the RAW files from the camera and they speak for themselves. If you want a digital RF that can produce files in the same league as Canon/Nikon's top of the line and are compatible with the entire range of Leica lens going back 50 or more years then the M8 is in a class of one. If you think RF photography is a quaint throwback to more primitive times that should be relagated to a museum, well then there are plenty of DSLR's to choose from.
 
espressogeek said:
Then you will be horrified by the Leica as it sound like a small toy pistol going off. I was shocked at how loud it is.
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Espressogeek,
While it is true that the Leica has a sonic signature louder then what we might expect from an "M" camera, it is neither as loud as the aforementioned Canon nor is it loud from the distance of opposing sides of a subway car. Case in point- I have several shots using the M8 on my Flickr account at less then four feet from the subject and they had no idea their picture had been taken.

Ted
 
I used my M8 in church on Christmas eve and no one was the wiser! It has to be a little louder because of the shutter re cocking and the metal (not cloth) shutter. It is a whole heck of a lot quieter thatn any SLR!!!!
Bugs? Sure. Solveable? Absolutely. But... buy the IR filters unless you're shooting for B&W. Magenta is an understatement for indoors stuff!
Sharp? REALLY sharp. See the veins in your eye sharp!
Steve
 
The reasons for wanting an M8 are not that complex. That is if you want a camera capable of the best or near the best photo files in a simple, compact body that is also very cool and a chick magnet to boot. What more is there to understand ?

Rex
 
HAnkg said:
Teething problems for digital products are common to all manufacturers. The Hassy H1 had lockup problems, Leaf has a disastrous problem with their current $30,000 back and its got to be at least a 5th gen product, they have been making digital backs as long as anyone. I've always found Apple computers to be very reliable. But the last desktop I got was a lemon, something about the build just never really worked right.

M compatible digital RF has some unique technical problems, so Leicas first effort has some unique compromises. But I have looked at some M8 RAW files, and the image quality is up there with cameras costing similar amounts. Digital is incrediblly expensive compared to the analog stuff it replaced. I paid $8000 for a 1Ds when it was Canon's flagship. A few years before I would have told you you were crazy if you told me I would be laying out that kind of dough for a Canon body (or even if you told me I'd be using a Canon). The 1Ds MKIIs is well over 6,000. despite the fact that you can get the 5D for less then half that. So the current Leica flagship is quite a bit less money then Canon's top of the line offering. I never thought I'd live to see that.

It's understandable if many will pass on being early adopters of Leica digital, it's generally a bad idea to be first in line for any new digital product. But to call the M8 a curio or a joke is nonsense. I've looked at the RAW files from the camera and they speak for themselves. If you want a digital RF that can produce files in the same league as Canon/Nikon's top of the line and are compatible with the entire range of Leica lens going back 50 or more years then the M8 is in a class of one.
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Thank you for summing up nicely, Hank.
 
Sailor Ted said:
Athena,
And your point is? And this forum is for what? Surely not JUST a place for those who do not own an M8 to cast dispersion on the camera and those of us who enjoy it? The arrogance of people who denigrate M8 users when we present our side of the M8 story especially after they (you) throw the first stone is beyond me.

Ted
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Please do not confuse ME with THEY. That is an act of sterotyping that is very offensive.

And, BTW, it was NOT the presentation of your "side" of the "M8 story" that I found most offensive. It was your characterization as "cheap" of the CV lens you used in your picture post!

CHEAP is a perjorative word that indicates of low quality and not worth what one pays for it.

In fact, the CV lenses I have used represent extraordinary VALUE.

VALUE as in the sense of acquiring an item at a lower cost that provide excellent performance that is as, or nearly as, comparable to competitor products that are priced at multiples thereof.

Sadly, you seem to confuse your ability to afford objects with their concomitant value. There are those of us who can also afford what you can - but who seek value over brand prestige.

Enjoy your M8 - but it will never be worth its price because, while it is expensive, it lacks "value".
 
Athena said:
Please do not confuse ME with THEY. That is an act of sterotyping that is very offensive.

And, BTW, it was NOT the presentation of your "side" of the "M8 story" that I found most offensive. It was your characterization as "cheap" of the CV lens you used in your picture post!

CHEAP is a perjorative word that indicates of low quality and not worth what one pays for it.

In fact, the CV lenses I have used represent extraordinary VALUE.

VALUE as in the sense of acquiring an item at a lower cost that provide excellent performance that is as, or nearly as, comparable to competitor products that are priced at multiples thereof.

Sadly, you seem to confuse your ability to afford objects with their concomitant value. There are those of us who can also afford what you can - but who seek value over brand prestige.

Enjoy your M8 - but it will never be worth its price because, while it is expensive, it lacks "value".
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Athena,
In your mind is there any difference between either the words or the concepts of "Cheap" vs. "Inexpensive?” In reality there is a world of difference. Here is what I actually wrote, and to what Athena is referring and taking great offense from on page 2 of this thread-

Sailor Ted said:
Here is what one can expect from the M8 and an inexpensive CV 12mm lens.
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Athena at first I was a bit surprised at the pompous nature of your original post to this thread (really it is a good read and I recommend it to anyone interested- see below). Now however after reading your last post I see that being "pompous" is just a nature of your "personality" (such as it is) after all you not only profess to understand the intimate inner workings of the corporate culture of Leica corp., you also posses an attitude to assume you can determine what is not only a good value for yourself, but also for everyone else.

Perhaps Athena you should stop projecting so much into the world and actually open your eyes and "see." Start by looking up the words "cheap" and "inexpensive" in the dictionary as in this case your projection prevented you from reading what I actually wrote.

Case in point taken from Jaapv's thread explaining why he decided to purchase a second M8 body.

Athena said:
I am confused by this entire thread.

It seems that everyone posting who has purchased a M8 now plans on purchasing a second one?

The actual number of such persons are few - but such a strategy will have the effect of doubling sales of the M8! At least for this "select group". This is a curious development - to say the least.

Since the reports I've heard are that this camera has many problems - isn't this strategy a bit like the gambler down on his luck deciding to "double or nothing"? I mean, why wouldn't a "first adopter" now wait for the problems to be resolved before buying a second camera?

Clearly, from a risk management standpoint - any wise current owner would wait for a resolution of the "issues" rather than do as the OP proposes.

Then again, perhaps the OP has a "not revealed agenda" for making such a grand pronouncement?

Hera always told me, burn me once,, shame on you; burn me twice, shame on me!!
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Athena your above post shows your inability to reconcile the world as you "project" it and as it is for someone else- it may just be a simple lack of empathy or it may be more serious. Again perhaps you should stop projecting so much- you'll see things quite differently. Despite all the glowing reports from M8 owners (myself included) you cling to your preconceptions and profess to be confused by our points as to why we love our cameras. "Reports I've heard"? start reading not the opinions of those who do not own the camera above the reports of those of us who actually do unless you have some vested interest or insecurity that causes you not to like the M8. Athena the merit of the M8 is an "inductive" and not a "deductive" argument. Reaching a conclusion before all the facts are in is a fallacy of reasoning. Do this often and the world becomes a bewildering place.

Ted

Lastly this is Athena's first post to the thread- this really puts it all in perspective.

Athena said:
I'd like to say "I feel your pain" but I do not for a very simple reason.

I continue to fail to understand why anyone would expect a company that has a long, hallowed history of making probably the finest mechanical instruments for shooting film imagery would consequently know the first thing about making electronic, digitally-based image-making gear!

There is notihng, anywhere, in the corporate culture of Leica to suggest that they would have any capability of transferring their film-based expertise to the digital milleu.

Unlike the Japanese firms, they did not invest early on in digital photography to "come up the learning curve" of the technology. Instead, they waited forever amd then figured they could buy-in - without the know-how, capital or capability of producing a "killer product" that would surpass all the others.

This was a predicted disaster by many and not a surprise.

If you want to own a label in the digi camera world - buy the Leica. But a label is all you're going to get.
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rsl said:
Five bedrooms, each with its own bathroom. One downstairs powder room, and one half-bath in the garage. Which one would you capture?
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With all the space, rip out the 1/2 bath in the garage, make it a real darkroom. Cars are better left outside. :angel:
 
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