ColeCole
Member
Hi all, new member here. I've been reading the forums for a while now and soaking up a lot of info. Thanks!
So! I'm looking to buy a rangefinder. Both the Canon P and 7s are at the top of my list. I love the idea of investing in a camera that could outlast me-- being that it's well built and entirely mechanical (except for the meter in the 7s). I've got a couple of questions about them both. Help me out!
With the P, I would plan to use it with a shoe mounted meter, something like the VC or Doomo. I DO really like the idea metering before bringing the camera to my eye to focus and shoot. I also prefer to not carry around a handheld meter. I was drawn to the 7s specifically because of the CDS meter. It would eliminate the need to have a shoe mounted one. Cool.
- Assuming I'm buying one with clean glass/freshly CLA'd, which one has an easier to use/bigger/brighter viewfinder/focusing patch? From a usability standpoint (looks aside!) which one do you prefer? I don't wear glasses, so I'm not concerned about the scratchy surfaces, but I would like to use a 35mm lens.
- I've read something about the shutter mechanism in the 7s to be operating under higher pressure and more likely to fail/have issues. Is this a real concern?
- Is the CDS meter on the 7s any good? Even after finding the right battery, will I want to use a different meter?
- Overall, I get the impression that the 7s is more advanced and better to use because of it, but at this age, are those advancements now just things to worry about breaking, or is it really just as reliable as the P?
Thanks for the insight!
So! I'm looking to buy a rangefinder. Both the Canon P and 7s are at the top of my list. I love the idea of investing in a camera that could outlast me-- being that it's well built and entirely mechanical (except for the meter in the 7s). I've got a couple of questions about them both. Help me out!
With the P, I would plan to use it with a shoe mounted meter, something like the VC or Doomo. I DO really like the idea metering before bringing the camera to my eye to focus and shoot. I also prefer to not carry around a handheld meter. I was drawn to the 7s specifically because of the CDS meter. It would eliminate the need to have a shoe mounted one. Cool.
- Assuming I'm buying one with clean glass/freshly CLA'd, which one has an easier to use/bigger/brighter viewfinder/focusing patch? From a usability standpoint (looks aside!) which one do you prefer? I don't wear glasses, so I'm not concerned about the scratchy surfaces, but I would like to use a 35mm lens.
- I've read something about the shutter mechanism in the 7s to be operating under higher pressure and more likely to fail/have issues. Is this a real concern?
- Is the CDS meter on the 7s any good? Even after finding the right battery, will I want to use a different meter?
- Overall, I get the impression that the 7s is more advanced and better to use because of it, but at this age, are those advancements now just things to worry about breaking, or is it really just as reliable as the P?
Thanks for the insight!
lukx
Well-known
I cannot answer all your questions, but the Canon P is not the ideal camera if you want to shoot mainly 35mm lens. It's got a 1:1 magnification viewfinder which caters mostly toward 50mm and longer. Also, all framelines are displayed at once, making the viewfinder more cluttered than the 7, where you can choose the framelines individually.
I think it will be difficult to find a 7s with a reliable meter, so best to not weigh this theoretical feature too highly.
I think it will be difficult to find a 7s with a reliable meter, so best to not weigh this theoretical feature too highly.
Swift1
Mentor
When I bought my Canon 7, everything that I read that compared the 7 and the P viewfinder/rangefinder said that the 7 finder was generally better, especially the 35mm framelines. I've also read that the rangefinder in the 7 (assuming both are working properly) is better than the P. I've not used the P so can't confirm that personally.
IIRC the viewfinder on the 7 is the same as the 7s.
hap
Well-known
For some reason my 7s meter works pretty well. The needle can be hard to see. It's not optimal but does work.
I have a P sitting around...somewhere, so I will do some investigation of the two finders side by side.
agfa100
Well-known
Before I got into Leica M's I had both a 7sz (the last version)I did not know that when I had the camera mind you plus a canon P. I picked up the P to have a second body, you want the 7s you have the 35mm frame lines in the camera so much easier to use. The meter is external and works ok nothing to get excited about. A handheld meter may be a better way to go, but it's your choice. Enjoy what ever you get, but realize the newest camera is going to be at 50 years old.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
The 7s will in general be more expensive to buy...way less were made than the P.
From using both I find the 7 series better from the viewfinder that compares with the Leica M series with its projected frame lines vs the reflected ones in the Canon P and many P viewfinders have not aged so well after 60 years.
A more common plain Canon 7 would be my choice, good camera, plenty-full and inexpensive to buy as a pro quality camera....the metering would be done with a modern hand-held meter for accuracy if that is important to you, something that would be done anyways if you opt for the Canon P.
From using both I find the 7 series better from the viewfinder that compares with the Leica M series with its projected frame lines vs the reflected ones in the Canon P and many P viewfinders have not aged so well after 60 years.
A more common plain Canon 7 would be my choice, good camera, plenty-full and inexpensive to buy as a pro quality camera....the metering would be done with a modern hand-held meter for accuracy if that is important to you, something that would be done anyways if you opt for the Canon P.
hap
Well-known
If a camera is art the P has it over the 7s. But that is probably secondary. A Hasselblad is high art but exceedingly useful.
styvone
Established
My primary shooter was a Canon P before getting a Leica. I'm not a glasses wearer, but those 35mm frame lines are damn hard to see. It was when I was getting some photos back with iffy framing that really pushed me over the edge to investing in a mechanical rangefinder with a VF that better suited my needs. If you shoot mainly 50, then the P is a fantastic choice. One more note, the rangefinder patch in a lot of these have faded over the years. Still usable, but not as clear and crisp as the ones I've seen in Bessa's and Canon 7's. Also, not many people service Canon P's anymore - DAG and ProCamera are the only two shops I know of who will take on a CLA.
If you're set on shooting mainly 35, I'd look into a Bessa R or a Canon 7. The Bessa is said to have poorer build quality when compared to the Canon's, but are still reasonably durable. The VF on those are fantastic though, and the in-camera meter is handy. Canon 7's are very cheap at the moment on eBay, but don't count on their meters to still be working. Still, a great bargain!
If you're set on shooting mainly 35, I'd look into a Bessa R or a Canon 7. The Bessa is said to have poorer build quality when compared to the Canon's, but are still reasonably durable. The VF on those are fantastic though, and the in-camera meter is handy. Canon 7's are very cheap at the moment on eBay, but don't count on their meters to still be working. Still, a great bargain!
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
The Canon P is a handsome camera, no doubt...if one has good youthful eyesight and gets hold of a Canon P with very little internal reflections inside the viewfinder then it is a great and fortunate combination of circumstances that will please the owner/user of such camera...but most of us RF film camera users are getting old now and so are these vintage cameras.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
By the time you will need glasses and under your life time commitment you won't need any meter. For some time already
Nor this meter is going to last...
Nor this meter is going to last...
ColeCole
Member
By the time you will need glasses and under your life time commitment you won't need any meter. For some time already
Nor this meter is going to last...
Ha! Good point good point.
Another part of this decision is that I think I'd be purchasing either from Shuiedo and they would CLA them before paint (any other black 7s's out there?) And the price difference is pretty much the same as a shoe mounted meter itself. So really I think it comes down to the viewfinder quality (sounds like the 7s is the winner here) and if the meter on the 7s will just be a waste of space a few years down the road if it breaks.
Thanks everyone! Keep it coming!
ColeCole
Member
davhill
Canon P
I don’t get distressed about seeing the 35mm frame lines on the P. 35mm is essentially “the whole view” — with my eye up close and centered, the 35 brightlines are right at the edges of visibility. It’s real easy to gestalt it .. if you see it, it’s in-frame. And if my eye is off-center, the lines come into view on one side or the other, showing me where not to go beyond.
Not a problem.
Not a problem.
Deardorff38
Mentor
I prefer the ergonomics of the P. I'm mostly a 35 mm lens user. Even on my M4 i often use an external viewfinder. If i can offer any advice, it's to get the camera that feels right to you...& it is a personal thing. There are lots of folks who prefer a Leica M5...& i never cared for the size and squareness.... like the Canon 7...
newst
Well-known
I have both cameras. The P is in use regularly while the 7 gathers dust in a drawer. While I like the 7 viewfinder arrangement over that of the P, I just don't like the overall ergonomics of the 7. it doesn't fit well in my hands, where the P does.
Based on your described usage, however, I will recommend a different camera altogether. The Canon L1. The ergonomics are about the same as the P, but it uses a viewfinder similar to the 7. There are no frame lines, the entire image in the viewfinder is what will be in the photo. Unlike the 7 though, the L1 is limited to 35mm, 50mm, and a magnified view that appears close to 135mm, but can be used to nail focus for any lens.
The viewfinder/rangefinder optics are coated in gold, not silver like the other bodies, so they are less susceptable to oxidation over time.
Based on your described usage, however, I will recommend a different camera altogether. The Canon L1. The ergonomics are about the same as the P, but it uses a viewfinder similar to the 7. There are no frame lines, the entire image in the viewfinder is what will be in the photo. Unlike the 7 though, the L1 is limited to 35mm, 50mm, and a magnified view that appears close to 135mm, but can be used to nail focus for any lens.
The viewfinder/rangefinder optics are coated in gold, not silver like the other bodies, so they are less susceptable to oxidation over time.
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
I've not used the P, but I will chime in by saying the 7 leaves me completely cold. So much so, in fact, that it's the reason I don't own a P - it put me off Canon rangefinders forever.
The viewfinder is big, and the 35mm framelines are easy to see, but at least on the one I have, I can see discoloured boxes where the other framelines will come into view when you change the frameline option. It's entirely possible that mine just needs a clean, but it's far from an M-mount finder in terms of clarity.
That's not the big problem, though. It just doesn't feel good to use. The swing-back feels more like the SLRs I've always hated - a bit flappy and loose, even when closed - and the angled ends don't feel as comfortable in the hand as any Leica body. There's no accessory shoe, so I'm limited to 35, 50, 85/100 and 135 (I gather this was fixed with the 7s, but still). The onboard light meter is basically useless (as most on-camera non-TTL meters tend to be). It's a giant tank of a body compared to many rangefinders. And, worst of all, the balance of the camera is all off. If you hang it on a strap and use a small, light lens (like the 35/3.5 Summaron), the camera tips backwards, meaning the top of the camera digs into your side and the lens is pointing up at the sky when you're not using it. Supposedly, this is because the strap lugs are positioned to balance that giant "dream lens", the Canon 50/0.95, and even something relatively common (and surprisingly dense) like the collapsible Summicron won't be enough weight to get it to hang right. It's a pain in the ass, and I ended up buying a tripod mount strap lug to hang it from one end like an M5 instead, but still couldn't bring myself to pick it up off the shelf more than a few times.
It's a great camera on paper, and it may be one of the most technologically advanced cameras in LTM (until the Bessas came about), but I highly recommend you handle one in person before you sink some money into it - especially considering the price people are asking for one now compared to a Canon P (or even a nice little IIIc).
The viewfinder is big, and the 35mm framelines are easy to see, but at least on the one I have, I can see discoloured boxes where the other framelines will come into view when you change the frameline option. It's entirely possible that mine just needs a clean, but it's far from an M-mount finder in terms of clarity.
That's not the big problem, though. It just doesn't feel good to use. The swing-back feels more like the SLRs I've always hated - a bit flappy and loose, even when closed - and the angled ends don't feel as comfortable in the hand as any Leica body. There's no accessory shoe, so I'm limited to 35, 50, 85/100 and 135 (I gather this was fixed with the 7s, but still). The onboard light meter is basically useless (as most on-camera non-TTL meters tend to be). It's a giant tank of a body compared to many rangefinders. And, worst of all, the balance of the camera is all off. If you hang it on a strap and use a small, light lens (like the 35/3.5 Summaron), the camera tips backwards, meaning the top of the camera digs into your side and the lens is pointing up at the sky when you're not using it. Supposedly, this is because the strap lugs are positioned to balance that giant "dream lens", the Canon 50/0.95, and even something relatively common (and surprisingly dense) like the collapsible Summicron won't be enough weight to get it to hang right. It's a pain in the ass, and I ended up buying a tripod mount strap lug to hang it from one end like an M5 instead, but still couldn't bring myself to pick it up off the shelf more than a few times.
It's a great camera on paper, and it may be one of the most technologically advanced cameras in LTM (until the Bessas came about), but I highly recommend you handle one in person before you sink some money into it - especially considering the price people are asking for one now compared to a Canon P (or even a nice little IIIc).
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
On a whim, I just grabbed the Canon 7 off the shelf, put a strap on it, and mounted the Canon 35/1.8 to see how it'd hang, just to check I'm not going insane. Nope. Just as I remember - I get the sharp edge of the top of the camera digging into my ribs instantly.
How on earth did this design ever get approved at Canon? Urgh.
How on earth did this design ever get approved at Canon? Urgh.
Attachments
Mackinaw
Think Different
Easy solution. Don't use a strap. Or at least, a different strap. Problem solved.
Jim B.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
That strap is too short to wear it diagonally like part of a Sam Browne belt, a Canon P would not fare any better in that situation.
davhill
Canon P
That may solve it for you, Jim, but to say ‘don’t use a strap’ is no solution at all for someone whose habit and comfort level is to use a strap. And I don’t believe a different strap will change the angle it hangs. To do that you need to change the mount points, and a useful dodge for THAT is to make an eyelet from brass sheet and mount it under the flash sync trim ring).
I concur with all points cited about (against) the 7 — it’s weight and bulk and ergonomics all figure into why I don’t have a 7 despite many temptations. In contrast I like the Canon P — it’s lighter, sleeker, and the ergonomics suit me (I do use a leather half-case; that’s the P in my profile pic). I’m content with the 35-50-100 viewfinder layout. The angle of repose with a 50/1.8 is about 10 degrees backwards, but the kit is light enough it lays comfortably. The angle is greater with a collapsed Elmar, but I don’t use that lens so it’s no real concern to me.
All that said, I’m terribly tempted to buy an L1.
Dave