The Last New DSLR? Would you believe the Pentax KF?

If he’s shooting that quickly, then just just how much time is he spending looking through the viewfinder of his M4?

A lot of his shots are skewed, showing how he just raised the camera for an instant and tripped the shutter. Lens prefocused. A fair number of photos aren’t even at eye level. It’s not like he’s spending any time at all composing, but rather just making sure the subject is in the frame.

For sports photography, like basketball, I’d want a great EVF if I had to use one.

The skew or tilted horizon was intentional, although Winogrand would probably argue with you that it wasn't tilted in the fist place.

He never was a 'hip shooter' and was adamant about that. You can hear him discus this in several of the recordings of his classes.
The thing that makes Winogrand great is that not only did he capture the 'decisive moment' but also the complexity of his compositions. Something that becomes more difficult to do the wider your lens is. He was one of the first to move from 50 and 35mm to 28mm for the majority of his work and be able to maintain a sophistication of composition equal to longer focal lenghts.

Winogrand, Meyerowitz and others worked at lighting fast speeds. I have yet to see an EVF that can truly keep up with the speed needed. The best EVF I have seen so far is in the Z9, but the camera is too big and heavy for street work.

Not to put myself in the same box as Winogrand, but I know that I have yet to see an EVF that can keep up with my speed of shooting. www.thelatentimage.net

I shoot Leica M and Nikon SLR/DSLR
 
Harry- after shooting RF's since I was 11 and SLR's since I was 12, picked up a Nikon Z5 a little over a month ago. I can get a shot in focus of a moving skater with the 90/1.5 wide-open under just the disco lights. Better hit rate than the M9 and much better than the Df. I also use the Canon 50/0.95 on it. The frame-rate update keeps up with the action and my continuous focus, and the latency is less than the Df. Compared to the Olympus EP2 with EVF, a world apart. The Ep2- slow update and 0.2sec or more of latency. The new mirrorless generation- has caught up.


I shot some 300 pictures on this outing, most were in good focus. Much higher hit rate than my Df or M9/M Monochrom.

But that's a premeditated tracking shot. That's not the same as yanking the camera up in a split second and firing off a shot.

EVF have made enormous progress in the last few years and I hope that trajectory continues, because it looks like they will dominate the market and we will be shooting with them if we like it or not
 
If you are shooting fast and loose like Winogrand in today's day and age you would be using the rear LCD. No one can convince me Winogrand wouldn't have discreetly framed that way. He was looking for a way not to be noticed with the camera up to his eye.
For starters Gary wasn't a fast and loose shooter.

People still see you more often than you think. It helps in some occasions, but it's no magic bullet. I would sometimes pop the prism viewfinder off my Nikon F/F2/F3P and frame right on the focusing screen and people still knew what I was doing...

I found that simply becoming invisible gave me a much better hit rate
 
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Winogrand, Meyerowitz and others worked at lighting fast speeds. I have yet to see an EVF that can truly keep up with the speed needed.
It seems the camera is up to his eye for only a tenth of a second, maybe less.

So with that style of shooting, what puzzles me is where is EVF speed needed in that tenth of a second? Is the electronic image smeared? Not framed correctly? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I really want to know.

For comparison, the only camera I have with an EVF is a Fuji X-Pro1. The limitation with that - and it’s a big one - is very slow AF speed (even with all the body and lens FW updates).

I really like his “active camouflage“ style though. I may even try that.
 
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But that's a premeditated tracking shot. That's not the same as yanking the camera up in a split second and firing off a shot.

EVF have made enormous progress in the last few years and I hope that trajectory continues, because it looks like they will dominate the market and we will be shooting with them if we like it or not
I was able to pull the camera up and quickly frame and focus by just the red-peaking method. I did this for a few of the skaters that came into view at the last seconds. Much faster than I could with a traditional RF or SLR. With the Df- the light levels were too low for the AF mechanism to work.
 
I was able to pull the camera up and quickly frame and focus by just the red-peaking method.

I can't do that. You can time my reaction response with a sun dial. I've been trying but it ain't workin' for me. I've decided to sell all my manual focus lenses I've tried using with the Fujis and stick to AF. But I do much better with my Nikon DSLRs and old Nikkors and ZF Zeiss lenses. Go figure...analog eyes, I guess.
 
If you are shooting fast and loose like Winogrand in today's day and age you would be using the rear LCD. No one can convince me Winogrand wouldn't have discreetly framed that way. He was looking for a way not to be noticed with the camera up to his eye.
I think many great street photographers like Winogrand, because they shot with the same camera and same lans most of the time, shot/shoot so much that they become one with their equipment. That are like a sharp shooter that can soot coins out of the air without aiming.

I love and totally agree with this quote by Winogrand when he was asked about shooting so much he responded "Art is not a product of industrial efficiency."-Garry Winogrand

So I think he would still be shooting a Leica rangefinder because he wouldn't need and LCD to frame.

A really cool video by a current street shooter.
 
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I bought the Z5 using the funds from selling an F3HP, one of two bought 20+ years ago. It was my backup. I bought the Z5 to use with some lenses like the Canon 50/0.95 and 85/4.5 UAT, worth many times the camera. Brought it to the ice skating rink and roller skating rink to push the limits. I usually bring the M9 and M Monochrom, have for years. The Z5 "exceeded my expectations" in terms of being able to focus and frame quickly. Rather than looking for the subject to be in focus, I "triggered" on the appearance of the red outline, much like I do with the rangefinder- edge detection.
 
There is no auto focus in the world faster than being pre focused. Using DoF scales and hyper or zone focusing.
The DOF on that 90/1.5 used wide-open is fairly narrow! The light was low, even at F1.5 and ISO6400, 1/30th second was required.
 
I rarely shoot wide open and when I do I just focus. I usually like iamges that use all the elements in the frame. But I can focus pretty darn good with my 90 cron APO or my 50 1.2 Voigt Nokton. In my opinion there is a lot more to interesting images than bokeh. Heres the M 10 Mono at 50,000 ISO. For the pixel peepers.
172118501.LjkN24hW.L5003629.jpg

CROPPED
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12,500
172227990.tPI9eQN9.L5003491.jpg

CROPPED
172334908.TbP2K3cv.L5003491.jpg

Just think of the possibilities.
 
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For starters Gary wasn't a fast and loose shooter.

People still see you more often than you think. It helps in some occasions, but it's no magic bullet. I would sometimes pop the prism viewfinder off my Nikon F/F2/F3P and frame right on the focusing screen and people still knew what I was doing...

I found that simply becoming invisible gave me a much better hit rate
Yes perhaps that was not the most effective term. "Snap-shot" would be a better term if it wasn't loaded with a different meaning. I meant more like fast moving, taking ti all in, and taking a shot all as one movement. It's fun to watch him in videos.

I have given up trying to be 100% stealthy. Using a tilt screen furtively always made me feel sneaky. Nowadays I nearly always raise the camera to my eye, but often aim slightly away from the subject. They notice my movement, but assume I am not shooting them and immediately ignore me. Then, I can tilt the camera to the real subject and shoot. When needed, I stay "posed" pointing the camera past them so they don't feel targeted.
 
For the first time, I’m currently shooting a DSLR, after using mirrorless since 2008 (when it all started with the LUMIX G1). The DSLR was a gift, it’s the lowest of the low Canon T7. I got the 24mm F/2.8 for it, which on APHS is like a 38mm lens. Canon don’t have a great lens lineup for wide EFS lenses, they seem to be more interested in the sports and birder market with their telephoto line up.

I’m surprised how much I’m liking this camera, using the TTL optical finder. Faster than an EVF but also more accurate in framing than a rangefinder or Fujifilm X100 hybrid in optical mode. AF for stills is lightning fast using the optical finder . There is a sorta mirrorless mode where it locks the mirror up and goes live-view on the rear LCD, but the AF then reverts to what seems like contrast detect and is pretty bad. With the mirror down in optical mode it uses a different AF system that’s really good.

All this to say that these smaller, low-end DSLRs, coupled with wide primes, are an undiscovered value for street photography, the T7 is maybe 1/20th the cost of a Leica, 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of an X100.
 
For the first time, I’m currently shooting a DSLR, after using mirrorless since 2008 (when it all started with the LUMIX G1). The DSLR was a gift, it’s the lowest of the low Canon T7. I got the 24mm F/2.8 for it, which on APHS is like a 38mm lens. Canon don’t have a great lens lineup for wide EFS lenses, they seem to be more interested in the sports and birder market with their telephoto line up.

I’m surprised how much I’m liking this camera, using the TTL optical finder. Faster than an EVF but also more accurate in framing than a rangefinder or Fujifilm X100 hybrid in optical mode. AF for stills is lightning fast using the optical finder . There is a sorta mirrorless mode where it locks the mirror up and goes live-view on the rear LCD, but the AF then reverts to what seems like contrast detect and is pretty bad. With the mirror down in optical mode it uses a different AF system that’s really good.

All this to say that these smaller, low-end DSLRs, coupled with wide primes, are an undiscovered value for street photography, the T7 is maybe 1/20th the cost of a Leica, 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of an X100.
My earliest attempts at street photography were done with the Nikon D40, a small "beginner" DSLR which was my first serious camera. But I went to mirrorless with micro four thirds, and it was where I got more serious about trying to shoot street photography. I still use that format, but augmented it with a Ricoh GR. Fast forward to today, and I'm using the K-1 Mark II, a full-frame DSLR that is not at all small. But it's a joy to use.

There is a video, the title of which is a little provocative (but if you watch it you understand it's referring to his personal use, not some overarching assertion), where YouTuber Sam Lin Taro talks about going from shooting Leica (as well as a GR) back to a DSLR. He, too, went for something that is not at all small (D850) but is a joy to use in other ways. It's like we're able to discover the good things about DSLRs now that they're not seen by the wider public as the "only" serious cameras, or denoting being a professional, or any of the other baggage that surrounded them fifteen years ago.

 
I would never go back to shooting with a DSLR again. NEVER. I went all Leica M digital in 2015 with absolutley no regretes. I now have 2 M 10s and an M 10 Mono. For me there is nothing better or faster for street work than a rangefinder.
 
Rangefinders are great for quick shooting, especially using them as "point and shoots" with zone focusing. The Ricoh GR is also a fast camera in this respect. But I started my interest in photography with a Nikon F in the early 1970s and SLRs still seem right to me. While I use Fuji X-Pro faux-leica cameras a lot and the GR and X100s as well, nothing feels as comfortable to me as a single lens reflex. IMO that's really the most important thing in choice of camera--being comfortable using it to the point you don't think about it because it feels natural.
 
Agree finding a tool that matches the way ones sees and works is key. For me it is Leica digital M. To me Leica M is also a real choice from the auto everything one size fits all world that is the DSLR and current mirrorless market. Others love the features that I don't like. But who but Leica would make a camera like the M 10 Mono. A true rangefinder with a B&W sensor. Nice to have choices.
 
I would never go back to shooting with a DSLR again. NEVER. I went all Leica M digital in 2015 with absolutley no regretes. I now have 2 M 10s and an M 10 Mono. For me there is nothing better or faster for street work than a rangefinder.
I slipped into rangefinder-style format with Olympus and Panasonic M4/3, and then got a couple of real rangefinders and practiced the zone focusing on the street. I like it - I still use snap focus most of the time street shooting with the GRIIIx. But, even though I sort of swore off DSLRs for a while, there is a tool-like air of quality and excellence to my K-1 mark II that is hard to describe. I love rangefinders, but the design of the K-1 allows it to vanish into think->act in a very intuitive way. I get it, rangefinders are like that too. Maybe I'm just surprised that the K-1 does that as well as it does. Maybe it's the difference between a pro-level, stills-focused DSLR versus the smaller/cheaper/compact/hybrid designed cameras today, which do everything but nothing particularly well.
 
I have been reading this thread slowly... there are different ways of thinking and feeling the cameras and understand the way one makes his/her photographs... very interesting.

In the last time I'm using the X-T3 and the sony A7 cameras, because it is very easy to work with them for me. My way of creating a photograph is "slow". I'm not fast and I don't want to be fast. I need to feel, to "see" the "image" in my mind before I take the camera. It is in this way in 90% of my photographs. Sometimes, it becomes an inpuls and I make the photograph, but it isn't my usual way. I like to try to create small stories in my photographs, trying to get a good frame with the lines, the light and shadows, the subject(s) interrelate in a one "storie". I know, it's very difficult, but it's what I try to do.

I use the sony A7 (classic) with my Zuiko OMs and sometimes the photographs "image" quality isn't as good as I would like.

With the X-T3 and XF lenses I like what I get from it. But when I use it at 6400ISO it's no OK for me.

And there is my problem. I wnat to continue with the fishermen project and I need to shot at ISO6400 or higher... and the sony A7 + Zuikos doesn't give me this quality.

So, I was thinking on changing my digital tools for one better for this project. And I thought in a Sony A7 IV + Sony Lenses... or in the Canon R6 II + Canon Lenses... and when I read this thread I thought, maybe if I would go with a DSLR? Which one would you counsel me? The D850 or the K-1 II? I would buy 2 lenses: 21mm and 35mm. And I don't know Pentax and Nikon lenses in this focal lenght.

If you can share your opinión I would appreciate it a lot.
 
I have been reading this thread slowly... there are different ways of thinking and feeling the cameras and understand the way one makes his/her photographs... very interesting.

In the last time I'm using the X-T3 and the sony A7 cameras, because it is very easy to work with them for me. My way of creating a photograph is "slow". I'm not fast and I don't want to be fast. I need to feel, to "see" the "image" in my mind before I take the camera. It is in this way in 90% of my photographs. Sometimes, it becomes an inpuls and I make the photograph, but it isn't my usual way. I like to try to create small stories in my photographs, trying to get a good frame with the lines, the light and shadows, the subject(s) interrelate in a one "storie". I know, it's very difficult, but it's what I try to do.

I use the sony A7 (classic) with my Zuiko OMs and sometimes the photographs "image" quality isn't as good as I would like.

With the X-T3 and XF lenses I like what I get from it. But when I use it at 6400ISO it's no OK for me.

And there is my problem. I wnat to continue with the fishermen project and I need to shot at ISO6400 or higher... and the sony A7 + Zuikos doesn't give me this quality.

So, I was thinking on changing my digital tools for one better for this project. And I thought in a Sony A7 IV + Sony Lenses... or in the Canon R6 II + Canon Lenses... and when I read this thread I thought, maybe if I would go with a DSLR? Which one would you counsel me? The D850 or the K-1 II? I would buy 2 lenses: 21mm and 35mm. And I don't know Pentax and Nikon lenses in this focal lenght.

If you can share your opinión I would appreciate it a lot.
If you decide to go with the Pentax, look into the FA Limited lenses: there is a new 21mm Limited lens which is really nice, and an existing 31mm one (they often have interesting/different focal lengths) which you can buy in a version with updated coatings or as a slightly older one (the SMC model) which has been around since late in the film era. Then there is the HD FA 35mm f2, which I own, and which is pretty affordable, and nice and sharp once you stop down a little bit. Wide open it is just a tiny bit glowy and you'll see more fringing around highlights.

Only think to know about the K-1 II, in my mind, is that it's pretty heavy. It's not actually that large, but it has a very hand-filling, substantial grip which really makes the weight vanish in the hand. You feel it a lot more around your neck or in the bag than in the hand.

Nikon DSLRs probably have a lot more lenses available that are a bit more up to date than Pentax. Pentax didn't make a full-frame DSLR till 2016, so their specifically made-for-digital FF lenses are a bit lacking. There are a ton of older Pentax lenses, so if you want to continue shooting vintage lenses, there are plenty of options. I really like the cheap 50mm f1.7 in various iterations, from the 1970s Pentax-M version through the autofocusing F and FA versions.

Let me know if you have other questions! Apologies if I'm derailing the thread a bit.
 
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