milescl
Well-known
Not realizing it was already being discussed here on RFF I purchased the lens earlier this afternoon.
I’ll be sure to post my findings when it arrives. I’m also certain I’ll have some questions about it, too, so be ready!
I’ll be sure to post my findings when it arrives. I’m also certain I’ll have some questions about it, too, so be ready!
dexdog
Mentor
Milescl, I am looking forward to the pictures from your news lens. Those 272 series sonnars are generally good performers if they have not been mistreated in their long histories.
milescl
Well-known
Here's to hoping that, at minimum, it wasn't cleaned with a Brillo pad!
TenEleven
Well-known
Here's another strange one @Räuber
Look at that scalloped focus ring! And yet it has the secondary focus-stop screw in the usual place to delimit the focus travel! What a weird lens.
Very RARE Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 5cm f1.5 RED T Rangefinger Lens 2677077 | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Very RARE Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 5cm f1.5 RED T Rangefinger Lens 2677077 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
Look at that scalloped focus ring! And yet it has the secondary focus-stop screw in the usual place to delimit the focus travel! What a weird lens.
Räuber
Established
Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1,5/50mm M39 | eBay
Entdecken Sie Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1,5/50mm M39 in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
www.ebay.de
This one is a rehoused one. The first time it appeared on Ebay it was an authentic Contax Rangefinder Sonnar lens. Meanwhile someone put the front of the CRF lens into a fresh Jupiter-3 LTM body. I'm not sure if 300 bugs are enough to make a business.
I'm not sure if I like this kind of thing. CRF Sonnars are quite cumbersome to use on Leicas or modern mirrorless cameras like Sonys A7. So LTM / M39 Sonnars are easier to sell then CRF Sonnars. Since it is pretty easy to rehouse a CRF Sonnar into a Jupiter body it sounds like a good business idea. Especially bad copies could be rehoused to get a shiny new body.
If you can rescue some beaten up Sonnar this way I'm fine with it. The conversions Brian and Skyllaney are doing are fine too. Those converted and adjusted Sonnars are some of the best ones you can get your hands on.
That looks like they used a KMZ J-3 mount with an I-61 or similar focus ring.Here's another strange one @Räuber
Very RARE Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 5cm f1.5 RED T Rangefinger Lens 2677077 | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Very RARE Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 5cm f1.5 RED T Rangefinger Lens 2677077 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!www.ebay.com
Look at that scalloped focus ring! And yet it has the secondary focus-stop screw in the usual place to delimit the focus travel! What a weird lens.
TenEleven
Well-known
Yeah it's a very strange concoction. I wonder if they are running out of "good" Jupiter-3 focus mounts to use or what the deal here is.
It's strange though that the focus ring is scaled correctly in "m" not "M" as common with Russian lenses.
Also the aperture mark is a line, which also is correct for wartime LTM lenses. Thiele has it out of a batch of Contax lenses which is not surprising but also in my experience does not mean all that much.
It could be a Wartime mount with custom focus ring- the 267xxxx lens: I believe were not made in original LTM. I think there are Contax mount and Arriflex mount lenses in that batch.
TenEleven
Well-known
You are correct there's a batch of Arriflex Sonnar 50/1.5 lenses (which are T-coated) right next after it.
Also interesting to me is the extreme yellowing, I have seen it before on other CZJ and also Russian lenses. Not as extreme though. My entirely unscientific assumption is they had some sort of clear coating or lacquer on the aluminium to keep it shiny and nice to prevent the usual tarnish, but it either wore off or yellowed (and then people wiped it off?)
Also interesting to me is the extreme yellowing, I have seen it before on other CZJ and also Russian lenses. Not as extreme though. My entirely unscientific assumption is they had some sort of clear coating or lacquer on the aluminium to keep it shiny and nice to prevent the usual tarnish, but it either wore off or yellowed (and then people wiped it off?)
dexdog
Mentor
One of my ZK lenses, which I think may have been new old stock, had a yellow finish on the lens mount. Not quite as yellow as this one, but still fairly yellow. I touched a Q-tip wetted with lacquer thinner to the finish and it dissolved very fast.
milescl
Well-known
Well, folks, the Sonnar oddity (referenced here in previous posts) arrived…
Some observations:
- Despite the focus scale suggesting that it focuses in the Contax/Nikon RF direction, the lens does indeed focus in the Leica direction. Thoughts?
- The focus requires adjustment and it seems the screws taped to the bottom of the rear cap it came with might be the reason the lens will completely come out of the barrel if you turn it enough.
- Aperture ring needs adjustment — will only engage if you pull up a little — I was initially worried that someone had removed the iris for parts.
- Once adjusted, it seems the focus range from close focus to infinity will be about 270 degrees (judging off distance scale)
- The glass is surprisingly nice - minimal cleaning marks on the front and the rear element is nearly pristine. There seems to be haze and/or coating deterioration on the front side of the rear triplet that might need to be wiped off completely for best results.
I think I’ll be sending the lens to Don for an overhaul — hopefully internally nothing is damaged that will prevent this. I’ll be sure to ask what he thought of the quality of the internal construction and if he’s seen one like this before.
If anyone has thoughts on this lens, or has a similar example, please comment below.
Attaching some photos of the lens at infinity and close focus to show how misaligned it is.
Some observations:
- Despite the focus scale suggesting that it focuses in the Contax/Nikon RF direction, the lens does indeed focus in the Leica direction. Thoughts?
- The focus requires adjustment and it seems the screws taped to the bottom of the rear cap it came with might be the reason the lens will completely come out of the barrel if you turn it enough.
- Aperture ring needs adjustment — will only engage if you pull up a little — I was initially worried that someone had removed the iris for parts.
- Once adjusted, it seems the focus range from close focus to infinity will be about 270 degrees (judging off distance scale)
- The glass is surprisingly nice - minimal cleaning marks on the front and the rear element is nearly pristine. There seems to be haze and/or coating deterioration on the front side of the rear triplet that might need to be wiped off completely for best results.
I think I’ll be sending the lens to Don for an overhaul — hopefully internally nothing is damaged that will prevent this. I’ll be sure to ask what he thought of the quality of the internal construction and if he’s seen one like this before.
If anyone has thoughts on this lens, or has a similar example, please comment below.
Attaching some photos of the lens at infinity and close focus to show how misaligned it is.
Attachments
I'd probably look for a J-3 with bad glass to remount the optics.
Crazy- why go through all that trouble and use a focus ring marked backwards.
Crazy- why go through all that trouble and use a focus ring marked backwards.
milescl
Well-known
I’ll see what Don thinks of it first and go from there.
milescl
Well-known
The odd 272 batch sonnar that was discussed in this thread, first by @Räuber with post #138, and which I bought not knowing it was being discussed here, has returned from DAG (see my "initial findings" on post #151) where it received a full overhaul.
One correction: The lens does focus in the Contax direction.
Here are some shots from my first roll with the lens (tmax 400):
One correction: The lens does focus in the Contax direction.
Here are some shots from my first roll with the lens (tmax 400):
boojum
Mentor
A 272nnnn is a sweet lens. Here is one of the usual working boats from my neighborhood. I believe these are hake trawlers. This series of CZJ has been good to me, always an image with good color and definition, 5cm f/1.5, probably at f/5.6. "If it is red take a picture of it."
Räuber
Established
We really need a "strange creature" thread here! I have found one for sale on Ebay again.
Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1,5/5 cm for Contax | eBay
Why is this Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 strange? Well because the serial is from the 6th batch of Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 dating back to 1933 but the body clearly is made around 1947/1948 by Carl Zeiss Jena. Furthermore the lens has a valid CZJ name ring with a red T. The lens seems to be coated. The 1933 lens were uncoated. Well after WWII Zeiss offered to add coating to your uncoated lenses. So maybe the original (uncoated) glass was coated after the war. I have seen some of those lenses. In most cases it looks like Zeiss engraved the red T on the original name ring to show the coating. BUT this is not the original name ring! You see 1933 the engraving on name rings was a tiny bit different. I did not even talk about the font or spacings. I just say that they use "Nr" instead of "Nr." on the ring 1933.
So it is fake? Nobody knows. The serial is legit. The body is legit. The name ring is new. But that does not rule out that the glass inside this lens is the original v2 glass from the old 1415751 lens. The story behind this might be easy to explain. The original lens might have been damaged to a point where Zeiss saw no point in repairing it. It was easier to move the glass to a new lens. The old name ring would not have fitted this East German Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 body from 1947/48. So they engraved a new name ring with the old serial. They added coating to the lens to give it the latest treatment. So this lens might contain the old v2 glass in a newer body. Unfortunately this is only a theory of me. And nobody knows if Zeiss could salvage the old lens elements into this newer body. Maybe it was not possible and they just dumped the old 1933 lens completely in the trash bin and just engraved a fresh 1948 Sonnar with the old serial to give it to the previous owner.
I would call such a case Out-of-Time Sonnar. A Sonnar where serial and body does not match the production time.
Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1,5/5 cm for Contax | eBay
Why is this Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 strange? Well because the serial is from the 6th batch of Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 dating back to 1933 but the body clearly is made around 1947/1948 by Carl Zeiss Jena. Furthermore the lens has a valid CZJ name ring with a red T. The lens seems to be coated. The 1933 lens were uncoated. Well after WWII Zeiss offered to add coating to your uncoated lenses. So maybe the original (uncoated) glass was coated after the war. I have seen some of those lenses. In most cases it looks like Zeiss engraved the red T on the original name ring to show the coating. BUT this is not the original name ring! You see 1933 the engraving on name rings was a tiny bit different. I did not even talk about the font or spacings. I just say that they use "Nr" instead of "Nr." on the ring 1933.
So it is fake? Nobody knows. The serial is legit. The body is legit. The name ring is new. But that does not rule out that the glass inside this lens is the original v2 glass from the old 1415751 lens. The story behind this might be easy to explain. The original lens might have been damaged to a point where Zeiss saw no point in repairing it. It was easier to move the glass to a new lens. The old name ring would not have fitted this East German Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 body from 1947/48. So they engraved a new name ring with the old serial. They added coating to the lens to give it the latest treatment. So this lens might contain the old v2 glass in a newer body. Unfortunately this is only a theory of me. And nobody knows if Zeiss could salvage the old lens elements into this newer body. Maybe it was not possible and they just dumped the old 1933 lens completely in the trash bin and just engraved a fresh 1948 Sonnar with the old serial to give it to the previous owner.
I would call such a case Out-of-Time Sonnar. A Sonnar where serial and body does not match the production time.
TenEleven
Well-known
I was just going to say what Brian says.
Yes, there is simply no way the old style (including wartime) f/1.5 Sonnar optics fit in the post-war Jena mount.
To add a little bit to what Brian said, I should point out that none of the fittings and retainers will work either. There are no common parts. The construction is entirely different. I assume due to the fact that the dies and machines for the original design got carted off to Krasnogorsk, so they had to re-make the tooling from scratch. Which is how you end with the odd situation where you can interchange parts with Russian lenses but not(!) post-war Jena lenses!
The same is true for the f/2 Sonnar, the 8.5cm f/2 Sonnar and so forth. Only the 3.5cm Biogon bears a resemblance, but even here most parts are still not interchangeable, but the construction is closer to the original for reasons which are not clear to me.
Yes, there is simply no way the old style (including wartime) f/1.5 Sonnar optics fit in the post-war Jena mount.
To add a little bit to what Brian said, I should point out that none of the fittings and retainers will work either. There are no common parts. The construction is entirely different. I assume due to the fact that the dies and machines for the original design got carted off to Krasnogorsk, so they had to re-make the tooling from scratch. Which is how you end with the odd situation where you can interchange parts with Russian lenses but not(!) post-war Jena lenses!
The same is true for the f/2 Sonnar, the 8.5cm f/2 Sonnar and so forth. Only the 3.5cm Biogon bears a resemblance, but even here most parts are still not interchangeable, but the construction is closer to the original for reasons which are not clear to me.
Räuber
Established
Interesting bit of information I was not aware of. Is the same true for the Oberkochen Sonnar lenses? Should be since they had to start from scratch in West Germany too.
So the mystery around this lens is mostly solved. It is a post-war Sonnar as a replacement for a pre-war lens. The original lens probably does not exist anymore.
So the mystery around this lens is mostly solved. It is a post-war Sonnar as a replacement for a pre-war lens. The original lens probably does not exist anymore.
Last edited:
lukx
Well-known
This is another interesting one. A legitimate wartime LTM mount (lowercase „m“) and what looks to be a legitimate pre-war lens block. The curious thing is the beautiful multi-colored coating of the lens and the far too early serial combined with a red T.
I have a 201x coated and T labeled Contax mount Jena 5cm 1.5 which some people believed to be much too early a serial number for a factory T designation.
The optics of this LTM version are even older. So the lens block does not match the focus mount, and the coating and T designation is very early. Maybe the lens was custom coated and engraved after the war and transplanted into a LTM mount.
Either way, a beautiful lens.
Zeiss Sonnar 1,5/5cm T Nr. 1754576 mit Leica E39 Gewinde und E-Messer Kupplung | eBay
Zeiss Sonnar 1,5/5cm T Nr. Zeiss Sonnar 1,5/5cm T No. 1754576 with Leica E39 thread and E-knife coupling, the lens has traces of use corresponding to its age, see photos, the lenses of the lens are clear, without scratches, without dust, without wiping marks, the aperture has abrasion, without oil.
www.ebay.de
I have a 201x coated and T labeled Contax mount Jena 5cm 1.5 which some people believed to be much too early a serial number for a factory T designation.
The optics of this LTM version are even older. So the lens block does not match the focus mount, and the coating and T designation is very early. Maybe the lens was custom coated and engraved after the war and transplanted into a LTM mount.
Either way, a beautiful lens.