dexdog
Mentor
A question for Sonnar Brian about some current eBay listings. There is a seller from Belarus who has several early Jupiter lenses for sale, all of which have CZJ rear lens groups.
1951 J-3
1953 J-3
1952 J-12
1953 J-9
The link to one of his lenses is as follows, JUPITER-3 RED P 13 blades 50mm f1.5 RF M39 USSR Carl Zeiss Sonnar Leica 5104303 | eBay The rest can be found by looking for other items the seller has listed.
I know that many early Jupiters prior to 1954 or so likely have some CZJ lens elements, but I have not seen a 1952 or 1953 lens with a CZJ rear lens group. I have 1950 J-3 with a 272 group, a 1951 J-3 with a 284 group and a 1951 J-9 with a 285 group. I have 4 other 1951 to 1953 J-3s that do not have CZJ rear lens groups, and a pair of J-12 sfrom 1950 and 1951 that do not have CZJ rear groups either. Whaddya think? Are these legitimate, or cobbled together? In any case the seller is asking a premium for these lenses in my opinion. I also think that they might be in "too good" condition. I am not in the market, just interested. Looking at several of the internal lens mounts, they look different that the several that I have personally taken apart. Thoughts?
1951 J-3
1953 J-3
1952 J-12
1953 J-9
The link to one of his lenses is as follows, JUPITER-3 RED P 13 blades 50mm f1.5 RF M39 USSR Carl Zeiss Sonnar Leica 5104303 | eBay The rest can be found by looking for other items the seller has listed.
I know that many early Jupiters prior to 1954 or so likely have some CZJ lens elements, but I have not seen a 1952 or 1953 lens with a CZJ rear lens group. I have 1950 J-3 with a 272 group, a 1951 J-3 with a 284 group and a 1951 J-9 with a 285 group. I have 4 other 1951 to 1953 J-3s that do not have CZJ rear lens groups, and a pair of J-12 sfrom 1950 and 1951 that do not have CZJ rear groups either. Whaddya think? Are these legitimate, or cobbled together? In any case the seller is asking a premium for these lenses in my opinion. I also think that they might be in "too good" condition. I am not in the market, just interested. Looking at several of the internal lens mounts, they look different that the several that I have personally taken apart. Thoughts?
Been too busy!!!! and missed this.
This looks like a phony engraving on the rear fixture on his 1951 and 1953 lens. The rear triplets are probably Zeiss, but the engraving looks phony and hard to trust anything else about the lenses.
Compare with my 1950 J-3 from the 286 batch.
I have seen Zeiss Rear Groups in Jupiter-3 lenses as late as 1953: they were not coated. Serial numbers in the rear fixture are clean-cut, do not look like the one in the Ebay auction.
I have two 1950 J-3's with all Zeiss optics in them, one is a 272 batch and this 286 batch.
My 1952 J-12 in LTM has Zeiss numbers in the rear fixture that identify it as a 1943 Biogon, engraving is clean like that of my CZJ Biogon. $60 with shipping, years ago.
This looks like a phony engraving on the rear fixture on his 1951 and 1953 lens. The rear triplets are probably Zeiss, but the engraving looks phony and hard to trust anything else about the lenses.
JUPITER-3 RED P 13 blades 50mm f1.5 RF M39 USSR Carl Zeiss Sonnar Leica 5302846 | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for JUPITER-3 RED P 13 blades 50mm f1.5 RF M39 USSR Carl Zeiss Sonnar Leica 5302846 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
Compare with my 1950 J-3 from the 286 batch.
I have seen Zeiss Rear Groups in Jupiter-3 lenses as late as 1953: they were not coated. Serial numbers in the rear fixture are clean-cut, do not look like the one in the Ebay auction.
I have two 1950 J-3's with all Zeiss optics in them, one is a 272 batch and this 286 batch.
My 1952 J-12 in LTM has Zeiss numbers in the rear fixture that identify it as a 1943 Biogon, engraving is clean like that of my CZJ Biogon. $60 with shipping, years ago.
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dexdog
Mentor
Thanks, Brian! I noticed that the engraving looked different, too. I looked at a few of the engraved rear lens groups that I have on early J-3s and ZKs with a 10x hand lens, and the ones in the eBay auction definately are not the same. The anodized finish on the eBay lenses is also different than the lenses that I have.
I wonder who in that area is producing the phony name rings and phony engravings. Seems silly on these- are both lenses use German glass, and have at least Zeiss cut rear triplets. The Phony engravings just makes it that nothing he sells can be trusted.
MarkWalberg
Established
I see that the same 1953 lens is on eBay now.
Early Red P Jupiter 3 1.5/50mm M39 Zorki Leica RF Lens Carl Zeiss Sonnar 5302846
I thought I should check this forum before buying. Thanks for posting this !
Early Red P Jupiter 3 1.5/50mm M39 Zorki Leica RF Lens Carl Zeiss Sonnar 5302846
I thought I should check this forum before buying. Thanks for posting this !
I saw that one pop up. The phony engraving in the rear group makes me distrust the seller.
He would have done better to leave the engraving off, and advertise as a KMZ with German Glass. As it is- how can he be trusted?
He would have done better to leave the engraving off, and advertise as a KMZ with German Glass. As it is- how can he be trusted?
Räuber
Established
My feeling about post-war CZJ Sonnars and early Jupiters is that this is a rabbit hole that still needs exploration. It is a dangerous one too. It is easy to jump to wrong conclusions there and there are so many influences that might never can be named with certainty.
I would like to share this link with some Jupiter-8 here. It shows you different examples of Sonnars and Jupiters from the transition time when the Sonnar lens production moved from Germany to Russia (Sovjet Union). There is this one case on the list where the name rings serial number does not match the engraved serial on the lens block that I find most interesting. You see the name ring is from a batch with production date December 1942 but the lens block has this rare serial number from a batch that I have never seen a single lens of with production date of July 1946. It might be that those 2.9xxx.xxx lenses are real but never appeared with their given serial number on a name ring. It might be that Jena delivered those finished blocks to KMZ where they where "rebranded".
About this active Ebay auction. In my book this is the lens block CZJ Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 T 2.862.205 housed in an early Jupiter with a new Jupiter 3 name ring. Condition looks good, price seems fair. Go for it.
I would like to share this link with some Jupiter-8 here. It shows you different examples of Sonnars and Jupiters from the transition time when the Sonnar lens production moved from Germany to Russia (Sovjet Union). There is this one case on the list where the name rings serial number does not match the engraved serial on the lens block that I find most interesting. You see the name ring is from a batch with production date December 1942 but the lens block has this rare serial number from a batch that I have never seen a single lens of with production date of July 1946. It might be that those 2.9xxx.xxx lenses are real but never appeared with their given serial number on a name ring. It might be that Jena delivered those finished blocks to KMZ where they where "rebranded".
About this active Ebay auction. In my book this is the lens block CZJ Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 T 2.862.205 housed in an early Jupiter with a new Jupiter 3 name ring. Condition looks good, price seems fair. Go for it.
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dexdog
Mentor
Rauber, I thought that the referenced post on USSRPhoto.com was interesting. Attached pic is my 271 series collapsible in LTM, with "m" engraved on this distance scale. I have taken this lens apart (and got it back together) and have found 3 different partial serial numbers. The rear lens group is 293 series, while part of the optical block is marked with 280 series. I have three of these, 271, 280 and 285 series on the name ring and all of them are a mix of parts dating from 1940 to 1946, as judged by serial numbers. All 3 have the "m" on distance scale
The lens on ebay may not be a complete fake, but given that a 1953 J-3 is at least partly made with German glass, I cannot figure out why someone would add what I think is a bogus CZJ serial number to the rear lens group.
The lens on ebay may not be a complete fake, but given that a 1953 J-3 is at least partly made with German glass, I cannot figure out why someone would add what I think is a bogus CZJ serial number to the rear lens group.
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Räuber
Established
Thank you dexdog for sharing your findings. I really appreciate it.
This is not bogus serial number on the rear group.
The very first number is missing here. This is typical for the CZJ way to engrave lenses. Someone has to guess what is the first number. There are only 2 possibilities here: 2.862.205 is the right serial for this lens. This lens belongs to the authentic batch 2.857.701 - 2.862.700 from December 1945.
I find it not that unbelievable that this 1945 lens block ends up in a 1953 Jupiter. I have looked in my collection and found another example: ZORKII ZK 1:1,5 F=5CM P N 492868 = rear group 2.845.578 (January 1946).
dexdog
Mentor
The number on rear lens group corresponds to a known CZJ number; I just think that the engaving looks very different than any of my CZJ lenses in that the stamping on the CZJ lens components is usually nice and sharp roll stamp, while this one almost looks like it was pecked into place one dot at at time with a pointed punch.
I am familiar with the CZJ numbering scheme with the first digit missing. I have a couple of f 1.5 ZKs, 491911 and 492047 with rear lens groups numbered 846320 and 846254, respectively. Rear lens group of ZK 491911
I am familiar with the CZJ numbering scheme with the first digit missing. I have a couple of f 1.5 ZKs, 491911 and 492047 with rear lens groups numbered 846320 and 846254, respectively. Rear lens group of ZK 491911
dexdog
Mentor
My oldest ZK is 5cm/1.5 number 48000459, has a CZJ rear lens group number 860374. I have no idea why the oldest ZK should have the "newest" CZJ serial number of the 7 that I own.
Räuber
Established
Thank you for the examples. That are interesting details I wish I had known sooner. I was wondering about those missing production batches but did not check any Jupiter lenses. Unfortunately this bit of information is not easy to see. LTM Jupiters need to be disassembled to see the engraved serial and only a few people bother to post images of rear group engravings of Jupiters. And Jupiter lenses from 1948-51 are super rare.
If some other people can share their serials of Jupiter lenses I thank you.
I noticed the different quality of the rear lens groups engravings of the Ebay offered one too. But this might be an issue of the photo. It seems like the contrast and sharpness has been increased a lot and I would account those bright dots to dust on the lens. But yes it looks different because it might be engraved instead by using an stamp. That did not mean that this one is fake. A right CZJ serial number is hard to guess and what use would be to engrave a part of a lens that can only be seen when you disassemble the lens in a CZJ fashion if the lens states it is a Jupiter-8 lens? This would only make sense today to increase the value of a Jupiter for some 100 Euros. But this seller does show the rear group serial number only for this one lens. He has a Biotar for more money on offer where he does not show a CZJ serial or he offered other Jupiter 9 or 8s without CZJ serial.
No, I think the serial is authentic. Those were wild times. The number might be engraved not the usual way but the font is the same, the size is the same, the number is valid. That is enough for me. In the end this 48000459 Jupiter shows that there are other Sonnar lens blocks from this batch used up in Jupiter lenses.
Why one of the first Jupiters uses one of the last CZJ serials is one of those things I think we might never know for sure. The Sovjets disassembled CZJ pretty soon after WWII. They packed everything they got in their hands and send it to Russia. They wanted to transplant the lens production to Krasnogorsk near Moscow. They even "hired" CZJ engineers to help with teaching KMZ employees how to manufacture those Zeiss lenses. Nevertheless the start of the Sovjet lens manufacturing took some time. So the Sovjet administration forced CZJ to help out and produce Sonnar lenses. Most of this is done under the CZJ name. So until 1950 CZJ was allowed to manufacture Contax Sonnar lenses under the CZJ brand name. Those CZJ serials might have 2 sources. One are the taken lens parts and prepared lens blocks. KMZ could use those and put them into new Jupiter bodies. That would be lenses manufactured until 1945. But CZJ might be forced to supply KMZ with lens blocks after WWII too. CZJ only needed to create those engraved blocks without any Contax or LTM body. You can see this with the Sonnar 5cm f/2. But it seem to be happened with the 5cm f/1.5 too. There are 2 "missing" batches. All from 1946 and 1947. My prediction is that you will find those when examining Jupiter-3 made until 1954.
If some other people can share their serials of Jupiter lenses I thank you.
I noticed the different quality of the rear lens groups engravings of the Ebay offered one too. But this might be an issue of the photo. It seems like the contrast and sharpness has been increased a lot and I would account those bright dots to dust on the lens. But yes it looks different because it might be engraved instead by using an stamp. That did not mean that this one is fake. A right CZJ serial number is hard to guess and what use would be to engrave a part of a lens that can only be seen when you disassemble the lens in a CZJ fashion if the lens states it is a Jupiter-8 lens? This would only make sense today to increase the value of a Jupiter for some 100 Euros. But this seller does show the rear group serial number only for this one lens. He has a Biotar for more money on offer where he does not show a CZJ serial or he offered other Jupiter 9 or 8s without CZJ serial.
No, I think the serial is authentic. Those were wild times. The number might be engraved not the usual way but the font is the same, the size is the same, the number is valid. That is enough for me. In the end this 48000459 Jupiter shows that there are other Sonnar lens blocks from this batch used up in Jupiter lenses.
Why one of the first Jupiters uses one of the last CZJ serials is one of those things I think we might never know for sure. The Sovjets disassembled CZJ pretty soon after WWII. They packed everything they got in their hands and send it to Russia. They wanted to transplant the lens production to Krasnogorsk near Moscow. They even "hired" CZJ engineers to help with teaching KMZ employees how to manufacture those Zeiss lenses. Nevertheless the start of the Sovjet lens manufacturing took some time. So the Sovjet administration forced CZJ to help out and produce Sonnar lenses. Most of this is done under the CZJ name. So until 1950 CZJ was allowed to manufacture Contax Sonnar lenses under the CZJ brand name. Those CZJ serials might have 2 sources. One are the taken lens parts and prepared lens blocks. KMZ could use those and put them into new Jupiter bodies. That would be lenses manufactured until 1945. But CZJ might be forced to supply KMZ with lens blocks after WWII too. CZJ only needed to create those engraved blocks without any Contax or LTM body. You can see this with the Sonnar 5cm f/2. But it seem to be happened with the 5cm f/1.5 too. There are 2 "missing" batches. All from 1946 and 1947. My prediction is that you will find those when examining Jupiter-3 made until 1954.
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dexdog
Mentor
1948 ZK 5cm/1.5
dexdog
Mentor
Data from my various ZKs and J-3s with CZJ serials. Not near enough samples to draw any conclusions of course, but interesting
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The latest Jupiter-3 that I own with a Zeiss serial number stamped into it is from 1950. That was from the 286 block, and the numbers look just like those in my wartime Sonnars.
I have 1950, 1951, 1952, and 1953 J-3's, have handled many more. I have never seen numbers correctly stamped into a 1953 J-3 before. Those shown by the Ukraine seller look fake, engraved after production and do not match the other Sonnars and J-3's that I have that are stamped..
Someone was smart enough to look up serial number blocks, but did not invest in the tools to make the numbers look authentic.
I have 1950, 1951, 1952, and 1953 J-3's, have handled many more. I have never seen numbers correctly stamped into a 1953 J-3 before. Those shown by the Ukraine seller look fake, engraved after production and do not match the other Sonnars and J-3's that I have that are stamped..
Someone was smart enough to look up serial number blocks, but did not invest in the tools to make the numbers look authentic.
Räuber
Established
Didn't I wrote it is easy to rush to wrong conclusions. 😅 Looks like I was wrong here that the Ebay auction is authentic. On the other hand the given examples made my day because I learned something about early Jupiters with CZJ optics.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Fascinating discussion here!