krötenblender
Well-known
Proclaimer: This is not a Leica-bashing thread. But not talking about the bad things regarding Leica, about whats "wrong" about the Leica rangefinders, then Leica cannot become aware of the critique from it's user base.
What I'm talking about are the technical problems, that sometimes come with digital Ms. In another thread here I currently have the feeling, that it's very hard to accept for some people, that not everything regarding Leica is pure sunshine.
So only on the technical side (not the price, marketing or the size of the red button, ...), what are your points of critique regarding Leica digital RFs?
Mine from the other thread was the ridiculous startup time and the annoying Live View Button.
I was wrong with the LV button. In the current firmware, at least my problem was fixed: The button can now deactivated completely and LV can not activated by accident anymore. Great! (But why not from the beginning...)
My second point is not solved, though. And after a few replies, more or less saying that the problem is not really existing, I tried to make sure, that it does.
At a recent journey I had a nearly full 64 GB SD card, containing nearly 1900 RAWs. My M needed up to about 14 seconds to be ready, which made it in many situations useless.
The replies suggested, that my SD card could be the problem or that there are sample variation between cameras.
The second suggestion simply makes no sense to me. This is mass produced electronics where the variation between parts are only noticable using highly precise equipment. If this were not the case, it would mean, that Leicas production standards and quality control are below every acceptable standard.
The hint, it might be the SD card, because mine could only read only 45 MB/s, made me a little bit thinking. I had my doubts, that this could really be the problem, because the exact same card in a different camera (an Olympus E-M1) was not a problem. That camera starts up in about one second, no matter what...
Anyway, I bought a Lexar Professional 128GB 1000x card, which has a read speed of 150 MB/s and thus is more than three times as fast as my old SD card. Then I created the same situation on both cards, the old one and the new one. The same filesystem structure, the same files with the same file dates. I switched Live View on, switched the camera of and measured the time from switching on until the LV images was visible (assuming that this means, the camera is ready for the first shot). Here ist what I measured with five tries on each SD card:
Old San Disk 64 GB with 45MB/s: ~13,3s
New Lexar Professional 128GB with 150MB/s: ~12,6s
So think, what you want, but the speed of the SD card has only very minor influence on the startup time...
Some thoughts: assuming linear reads, the slow card can output nearly 600MB on data in the measured startup time, the fast card can deliver 1890MB in the measured startup time. I can not think of any reason for a camera to read and process this amount of data just to be ready for use. I think, Leica reads the filesystem structure and file list to calculate the filename of the next shot. If this is the case, there a few simple filesystem operations and reading about a few hundred kilobytes of data. What else could there be, to make the camera ready... Obviosly, there happens much more in the Leica firmware, but the time directly increases with the number of files on the card (the same cards freshly formatted in the camera start up in about 2 seconds). Say what you want, this SW design is just faulty and very bad implemented, there are obviously many bad decisions made in the architecture of the SW and the implementation. Sorry to say, but it is just that: bad SW.
Since I don't have access to the Leica-Firmware, I can not prove, that it is the fault of the SW alone. But since I have quite some experience from my profession in analyzing embedded SW (a.k.a firmware) I'm pretty sure, that the quality of that software leaves much room for improvement, to say it mildly. Again, with exactly the same cards, the Olympus E-M1 starts up in less than a second. To make it even harder for the E-M1, I also added 2000 Olympus RAWs with usual Olympus file system structure to the card: No change in start up time, still less than a second.
I have some other things to say about the camera, what I think, is badly implemented, not well thought through or just plain wrong or annoying but probably hard to fix. I think, Leica can and should do better, because I really love shooting with a rangefinder and I appreciate, that Leica still produces them. So no Leica bashing from my side, just honest critique.
What I'm talking about are the technical problems, that sometimes come with digital Ms. In another thread here I currently have the feeling, that it's very hard to accept for some people, that not everything regarding Leica is pure sunshine.
So only on the technical side (not the price, marketing or the size of the red button, ...), what are your points of critique regarding Leica digital RFs?
Mine from the other thread was the ridiculous startup time and the annoying Live View Button.
I was wrong with the LV button. In the current firmware, at least my problem was fixed: The button can now deactivated completely and LV can not activated by accident anymore. Great! (But why not from the beginning...)
My second point is not solved, though. And after a few replies, more or less saying that the problem is not really existing, I tried to make sure, that it does.
At a recent journey I had a nearly full 64 GB SD card, containing nearly 1900 RAWs. My M needed up to about 14 seconds to be ready, which made it in many situations useless.
The replies suggested, that my SD card could be the problem or that there are sample variation between cameras.
The second suggestion simply makes no sense to me. This is mass produced electronics where the variation between parts are only noticable using highly precise equipment. If this were not the case, it would mean, that Leicas production standards and quality control are below every acceptable standard.
The hint, it might be the SD card, because mine could only read only 45 MB/s, made me a little bit thinking. I had my doubts, that this could really be the problem, because the exact same card in a different camera (an Olympus E-M1) was not a problem. That camera starts up in about one second, no matter what...
Anyway, I bought a Lexar Professional 128GB 1000x card, which has a read speed of 150 MB/s and thus is more than three times as fast as my old SD card. Then I created the same situation on both cards, the old one and the new one. The same filesystem structure, the same files with the same file dates. I switched Live View on, switched the camera of and measured the time from switching on until the LV images was visible (assuming that this means, the camera is ready for the first shot). Here ist what I measured with five tries on each SD card:
Old San Disk 64 GB with 45MB/s: ~13,3s
New Lexar Professional 128GB with 150MB/s: ~12,6s
So think, what you want, but the speed of the SD card has only very minor influence on the startup time...
Some thoughts: assuming linear reads, the slow card can output nearly 600MB on data in the measured startup time, the fast card can deliver 1890MB in the measured startup time. I can not think of any reason for a camera to read and process this amount of data just to be ready for use. I think, Leica reads the filesystem structure and file list to calculate the filename of the next shot. If this is the case, there a few simple filesystem operations and reading about a few hundred kilobytes of data. What else could there be, to make the camera ready... Obviosly, there happens much more in the Leica firmware, but the time directly increases with the number of files on the card (the same cards freshly formatted in the camera start up in about 2 seconds). Say what you want, this SW design is just faulty and very bad implemented, there are obviously many bad decisions made in the architecture of the SW and the implementation. Sorry to say, but it is just that: bad SW.
Since I don't have access to the Leica-Firmware, I can not prove, that it is the fault of the SW alone. But since I have quite some experience from my profession in analyzing embedded SW (a.k.a firmware) I'm pretty sure, that the quality of that software leaves much room for improvement, to say it mildly. Again, with exactly the same cards, the Olympus E-M1 starts up in less than a second. To make it even harder for the E-M1, I also added 2000 Olympus RAWs with usual Olympus file system structure to the card: No change in start up time, still less than a second.
I have some other things to say about the camera, what I think, is badly implemented, not well thought through or just plain wrong or annoying but probably hard to fix. I think, Leica can and should do better, because I really love shooting with a rangefinder and I appreciate, that Leica still produces them. So no Leica bashing from my side, just honest critique.
rogazilla
Level 2 Newb
I think the Lexar you have is a uhs 2 card. It has additional pin in the middle of the card which em1 or my em5 support. Not the 240.
Without the middle pin I believe Lexar card only write 45mb/second. So you are back to square 1.
I tried 3 different brands myself but the only one that gives me consistent fast start up time is the Sandisk 64 extreme pro 95mb/s. I tried Lexar and transcend but unfortunately while they advertise 95mb/sec. They only do 45 on write.
Without the middle pin I believe Lexar card only write 45mb/second. So you are back to square 1.
I tried 3 different brands myself but the only one that gives me consistent fast start up time is the Sandisk 64 extreme pro 95mb/s. I tried Lexar and transcend but unfortunately while they advertise 95mb/sec. They only do 45 on write.
JP Owens
Well-known
Never write to an SD card intended for use in a camera with a computer. Always format the card in the camera, never in the computer. Never use a card formatted in one brand of camera in another. Only copy files off the card to the computer, never from the computer to the card.
squirrel$$$bandit
Mentor
You're right that good firmware should not be stymied by a full card. But why do you have so many RAWs on your card? This seems like a strange edge case. I tend to empty my card onto the computer after each shooting session and reformat it in the camera every time. I assumed this was the norm?
JP Owens
Well-known
Yes. That has always been my system as well. I just don't take chances with SD cards. Their content is too valuable to me.
taemo
eat sleep shoot
over 10s boot up time is odd, my M240 takes less than 3 seconds ro be ready, even with my 64GB card almost full.
could your camera be the problem after all?
could your camera be the problem after all?
Pioneer
Mentor
Hey Krotenblender, you might have to send it to Leica with your complaint to find out what is happening. Its pretty obvious that all anyone here can offer are excuses.
Since no one has admitted to having a similar problem then it would seem to be a fault of this camera.
Finally, just to be on record, I have personally copied DNG files from my computer to an SD Card which then worked just fine in my Leica M9. My M9 was even able to review those files on the display screen. I am not a computer genius nor do I work in the IT business, so I have no idea how it works...but it does.
Since no one has admitted to having a similar problem then it would seem to be a fault of this camera.
Finally, just to be on record, I have personally copied DNG files from my computer to an SD Card which then worked just fine in my Leica M9. My M9 was even able to review those files on the display screen. I am not a computer genius nor do I work in the IT business, so I have no idea how it works...but it does.
peterm1
Mentor
Card tribulations and Leica digital M cameras seem to be inextricably wedded till death they do part. Right from the get go with the M8.
I have experienced problems with mine, and there are lots of threads on the subject on the internet as well. Touch wood I have not had issues since sticking to the same cards (ones that were specifically recommended for Leica M ) and used exclusively with the M camera but previously most certainly did. I should add that I have owned or still own probably a dozen or more other digital cameras of various types and really cannot recall any card based problems with any of them apart from with a Leica M. Having said that it seems not to be frequent although it is relatively common issue experienced by users in the sense that I have heard it reported quite a lot.
I have experienced problems with mine, and there are lots of threads on the subject on the internet as well. Touch wood I have not had issues since sticking to the same cards (ones that were specifically recommended for Leica M ) and used exclusively with the M camera but previously most certainly did. I should add that I have owned or still own probably a dozen or more other digital cameras of various types and really cannot recall any card based problems with any of them apart from with a Leica M. Having said that it seems not to be frequent although it is relatively common issue experienced by users in the sense that I have heard it reported quite a lot.
Dektol Dan
Well-known
Amen
Amen
Having brand new major brand SD cards fail after only one or two outings, assuming the faith and performance that you have in them and their maker's claims is misguided. At the beginning of the shoot boot the camera and then leave it on!
Amen
Having brand new major brand SD cards fail after only one or two outings, assuming the faith and performance that you have in them and their maker's claims is misguided. At the beginning of the shoot boot the camera and then leave it on!
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I've never had any desire to use those high capacity cards .... 8 gig is my limit and I'll carry as many as is needed.
photomoof
Fischli & Weiss Sculpture
For my cameras (Lumix and Canon) I have an assortment of crappy cards. PNY, Kingston, SanDisk Ultra II, Kingmax, 8 and 16GB, they all work fine.
Go figure.
Go figure.
fad gadget
Established
I'm with rogazilla.
The only card I've had good success with on my M240/246, is the Sandisk extreme pro 95mb/s.
cheers/k.
The only card I've had good success with on my M240/246, is the Sandisk extreme pro 95mb/s.
cheers/k.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Not my experience. Only the Lexar 1000x has the extra connections, which make no difference. I get a consistent 1.4 sec startup on Lexar Pro 16 GB, timed by stopwatch.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
SD Formatter, issued by the SD Association, is the software to format an SD card with. It will ensure best performance. One can format afterwards in the camera, but there is no need.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
If your camera takes 14 seconds to start up it is faulty and should be sent to Leica for repair, as simple as that.
gavinlg
Mentor
It really sounds like you deleted or changed the files on your computer without formatting in card afterwards. Every time you transfer files to the computer, format your card in camera. Otherwise stuff like this happens.
ReeRay
Well-known
Sandisk extreme pro class 10 95 mb/s from day one in my M and never a problem. Startup is 2/3 seconds max. I'm still using the same card 2 years later and I'm a heavy shooter. Why such a high capacity card - because it's accepted as being the best for the M. I doubt I've ever shot more than 4Gb per shoot though and, like others, download and reformat the card at the day's end.
rogazilla
Level 2 Newb
Hello Jappv,
Just to clarify that to get the full 150mb/s all those extra connections have to work. Just stating the techinical part.
From my personal experience with the cards below:
1. Sandisk Extreme 16gb 45mb/s: 3 second ish
2. Sandisk Extreme Pro 64gb 95 mb/s: less than 2
3. Transcend 16gb 400x: 5 second ish
4. Transcend 32gb 600x: 3 second ish
5. Lexar 32 gb 1000x: Less than 3 but more than 2
6. Sony 64 gb 45mb/s : 5 second ish (but I only threw it into M240 in a pinch to use, it was previously in my A7 and not formatted in M240)
From the above, I definintely can feel the difference and I just stick with Sandisk Extreme Pro 95mb/s if it were up to me, I would probably get a bunch of 32gb as I dont like to keep too many pictures on a single card. I think the most I had on the Sandisk used in m240 was about 500 raws and that's not representative of the situation he is encountering. I defintely dont have experience of 1500+ raw files on any of my cards.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Timed by the stopwatch (and confirmed by the head of the Human Interface Lab at Groningen University) I get a consistent 1.4 seconds on an empty and formatted Lexar 16 GB Pro 600x. I don't see a difference with the 1000x ones. I think the camera does not support the higher speed anyway.
Others get times in the order of 1.8 or even 2.0, there seems to be a tolerance span here. But on an 8 or 16 GB card the camera should fire the shot within 2 secs of turning on.
Testing method:
Focus the camera (on a tripod or table top) on a computer screen showing a stopwatch app.
Lock the release button down with a cable release.
One hand switches the camera on, the other hits the space bar synchronously.
The camera takes the shot showing the exact time elapsed.
Repeat ten times, discard any obviously mistimed shots and average.
Others get times in the order of 1.8 or even 2.0, there seems to be a tolerance span here. But on an 8 or 16 GB card the camera should fire the shot within 2 secs of turning on.
Testing method:
Focus the camera (on a tripod or table top) on a computer screen showing a stopwatch app.
Lock the release button down with a cable release.
One hand switches the camera on, the other hits the space bar synchronously.
The camera takes the shot showing the exact time elapsed.
Repeat ten times, discard any obviously mistimed shots and average.
borge
Established
I dont understand how hard it is to do the following:
1. Get a Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC card - 64GB in size (95MB/s both read and write).
2. Format the card with the SDFormatter application (google it, its free).
3. Insert the card in the camera. DO NOT FORMAT THE CARD IN THE CAMERA.
4. Shoot images. Import them to Lightroom. After you have imported the images, simply delete the files off the card rather than formatting it. Insert the card into the camera again and use it...
This results in a startup time of about 1 second, consistantly, across all firmware versions, even with old and new cards (of the same type)... This is very very widely known and documented on many forums... But still,for some reason, people run out buying other cards and expect things to work just as good, when Leica themselves recommend these specific cards for the M240 platform.
1. Get a Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC card - 64GB in size (95MB/s both read and write).
2. Format the card with the SDFormatter application (google it, its free).
3. Insert the card in the camera. DO NOT FORMAT THE CARD IN THE CAMERA.
4. Shoot images. Import them to Lightroom. After you have imported the images, simply delete the files off the card rather than formatting it. Insert the card into the camera again and use it...
This results in a startup time of about 1 second, consistantly, across all firmware versions, even with old and new cards (of the same type)... This is very very widely known and documented on many forums... But still,for some reason, people run out buying other cards and expect things to work just as good, when Leica themselves recommend these specific cards for the M240 platform.