ranger9
Well-known
You should watch Curious Marc's channel on YouTube to see just how long old electronics can be made to last, if somebody is determined to do it. Doing component-level repairs on a circuit board or emulating an old custom processor on an FPGA isn't any harder than, say, winding new springs for a M3's shutter curtain rollers -- it just requires a different kind of specialist. The difference is that nobody right now cares enough about old electronic cameras to make it worth the bother. That might change.
Winding a new spring for an M3 is cheap and is not hard, a good technician would have no problem doing that.
I have an 1942 Triumph 841 Oscillograph that I got working again- Vacuum Tubes. Much easier than integrated circuits.
Implementing FPGA code to emulate a Maestro processor without having the embedded code available is next to impossible. Fabricating a new circuit board to fit within a camera and meet constraints for power and heat is very expensive. Having a new ASIC made to take the place of an existing one is nothing like making a new spring for an M3. I've had ASICs made for projects. It was not cheap. If your LCD on the M8 dies, Leica cannot replace it. The original LCD is out of production. Finding a replacement for it, same size and resolution, is easy. Designing a new circuit board and developing new firmware to implement the revised design is expensive, and never happened. Don't kid yourself that components can be easily replaced in a complex electronic device. I've run into problems like this before, and a lot of work is required to implement a new design that was required due to EOL on key parts. Most of the custom electronics I've done over the last 30 years have a 10 year life-cycle. In the middle of bringing a new generation out now, and final-firmware release for the 2014 units. With the component shortages now: not an easy time for the electronics industry.
I have an 1942 Triumph 841 Oscillograph that I got working again- Vacuum Tubes. Much easier than integrated circuits.
Implementing FPGA code to emulate a Maestro processor without having the embedded code available is next to impossible. Fabricating a new circuit board to fit within a camera and meet constraints for power and heat is very expensive. Having a new ASIC made to take the place of an existing one is nothing like making a new spring for an M3. I've had ASICs made for projects. It was not cheap. If your LCD on the M8 dies, Leica cannot replace it. The original LCD is out of production. Finding a replacement for it, same size and resolution, is easy. Designing a new circuit board and developing new firmware to implement the revised design is expensive, and never happened. Don't kid yourself that components can be easily replaced in a complex electronic device. I've run into problems like this before, and a lot of work is required to implement a new design that was required due to EOL on key parts. Most of the custom electronics I've done over the last 30 years have a 10 year life-cycle. In the middle of bringing a new generation out now, and final-firmware release for the 2014 units. With the component shortages now: not an easy time for the electronics industry.
Dogman
Mentor
Right after reading this thread this morning I ordered a Nikon D2H in like new condition. An almost 20 year old digital camera with a blazing 4mp sensor! It was cheap because, after all, who would want an old camera with such a low pixel output. Obviously I would. It might be fun to see what can be done with an ancient digital camera and party like it's 1999.
I bought pair of Nikon D1x bodies with every Nikon Macro lens available when the D1x was first introduced. $20K, 20 years ago. I had done some consulting work for a project, basically outlined everything that needed to happen for it to work. They canceled the project after 3 days, but let me keep the funds. I still have one D1x- but it had stopped working. The lenses are still useful.
raid
Dad Photographer
I am using a regular M10, and it is do far working well. I have no interest in getting an M11. My M8 and M9 both had repair needs .
Glenn2
Well-known
I’ve always thought Leica made a mistake by not building their digital Ms in a modular fashion. If you could have sent your camera back to the factory and paid a couple thousand to have upgraded sensor and electronics installed I’d have bought a digital M long ago.
Didn’t Leitz offer factory upgrades to some Barnacks? I often hear that you could get uncoated lenses coated. I guess they feel they can make more money with continuing upgrades to fewer customers.
Instead I’ve stayed with Leicas that have user replaceable sensors, M4, 3g, and 3f, they don’t even have meters so less to go wrong. ;-)
For digital my choice has been Fuji over Leica. The X100 and XPro series in my mind are better choices if your interest is travel or street.
Didn’t Leitz offer factory upgrades to some Barnacks? I often hear that you could get uncoated lenses coated. I guess they feel they can make more money with continuing upgrades to fewer customers.
Instead I’ve stayed with Leicas that have user replaceable sensors, M4, 3g, and 3f, they don’t even have meters so less to go wrong. ;-)
For digital my choice has been Fuji over Leica. The X100 and XPro series in my mind are better choices if your interest is travel or street.
ptpdprinter
Mentor
I suppose that is within the realm of possibility. I wonder how many M11 sales that would account for.
I suppose that is within the realm of possibility. I wonder how many M11 sales that would account for.
Fuji has a 200mm f/2 lens. Maybe I should get a Fuji. Wait...I have a Fuji. I taped over the name. When people ask me what kind of camera I am using, I tell them it is a Leica prototype I am evaluating.
If I wanted to impress a client, I would rent a Phase One.
JeffS7444
Well-known
If I thought that buying an M11 would cure my camera-buying urges for the rest of my life, I'd be on it in a heartbeat! But it didn't happen with the M3, M4, M6, M8 or M9, so why should M11 be any different? It's all consumer electronics.
It's all consumer electronics.ptpdprinter
Mentor
If I thought that buying an M11 would cure my camera-buying urges for the rest of my life, I'd be on it in a heartbeat! But it didn't happen with the M3, M4, M6, M8 or M9, so why should M11 be any different?
Leica bodies are the gateway drug for Leica lenses.
bluesun267
Well-known
:shootout:
ZivcoPhoto
Well-known
I don’t suscribe to the cropping reason for buying an M11. I was taught in the mid 1960’s to use camera’s viewfinder to compose my shots and I printed the images in the darkroom with very minor, if any cropping. It made me think in my mind how my photo composition would look and I made necessary adjustments before tripping the shutter on my Nikon F.
The same applies to digital as even with two new technology 24 Mp cameras I still shoot the same way - why I bought the Nikon Z6 rather than the Z7.
The same applies to digital as even with two new technology 24 Mp cameras I still shoot the same way - why I bought the Nikon Z6 rather than the Z7.
ptpdprinter
Mentor
I am not sure what composing in the viewfinder has to do with selecting the Z6 over the Z7? You can compose in the viewfinder with both. If you have a Z6 you will end up with a 24.5MP image. If you have a Z7 you will end up with a 45.7 MP image. Do you prefer 24.5MP images over 45.7MP images? If so, why?
ZivcoPhoto
Well-known
24.5 MP is plenty for me, I dont need extra MP for cropping.
zuiko85
Mentor
Since the pressure plate back and bottom can be removed from every M since 1954 why not have a replacement digital back that clips on and connects with the power supply and electronics in a bottom cover, 19-20mm thick should do. A ‘soft release’ would connect wirelessly to the unit to sync shutter release with the sensor switch on.
The filter stack over the sensor would need to be very thin and you probably would need to make the sensor a little smaller than the full 24x36 to fit inside the film gate.
Most of the mechanical Leica M’s would be compatible, from the M3 forward to the MP & MA.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
Even if you could deal with an outdated sensor, electrical systems break down. We've already seen that Leica stops supporting these cameras within only 10-years of production-end. While I can potentially see myself holding on to my M10 until it dies, I have no delusions of it lasting the rest of my life.
No digital Leica M should be considered a life-long investment (unless you're really old) much less a multi-generational camera. These are not mechanical film cameras that can be brought back to life periodically with a CLA.
No digital Leica M should be considered a life-long investment (unless you're really old) much less a multi-generational camera. These are not mechanical film cameras that can be brought back to life periodically with a CLA.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
Leica openly kicked that idea around during the M8 run and it never really went anywhere.
JeffS7444
Well-known
Here's your modular Leica camera - from 2003! It seemed like a good idea at the time, and maybe one or two are still in use somewhere in the world.
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4888226123/leicadigitalr9
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4888226123/leicadigitalr9
Evergreen States
Pierre Saget (they/them)
Rather than trying to make compromises trying to retrofit a film camera, a modular body should be designed for digital from the ground up. Other than that I think this is a good idea.
A modular camera is likely going to be bigger than a purpose-build digital camera. Heat distribution from the different components and RF noise suppression are likely going to constrain the size of a camera that can accommodate a modular design. It would be nice, but not always optimal.
On the M11- I'm surprised that it does not have a traditional metering cell. I'd prefer the shutter to stay closed until the moment the shutter release is pressed. It takes time to cycle the shutter from the open position. I'd also prefer lower power draw of a dedicated meter over using the sensor. Enough things I don't like that I can dismiss it as a "non-starter" for me. If Leica comes out with an "M2" mode- just skip the metering function and I can use my Weston Master II, and My M9 went out- "Maybe". Until then, the M8, M9, and M Monochrom are all going strong. I did check two of my Digital cameras from the 1990s. The Kodak DC120 works fine, but the Nikon 600 is dead. I'll have to drag out the Nikon E3 and the Kodak DCS200ir. The Nikon was just a bit less than the M11 when new, and the Kodak cost much more at $12,400 for the body alone- almost 30 years ago.
On the M11- I'm surprised that it does not have a traditional metering cell. I'd prefer the shutter to stay closed until the moment the shutter release is pressed. It takes time to cycle the shutter from the open position. I'd also prefer lower power draw of a dedicated meter over using the sensor. Enough things I don't like that I can dismiss it as a "non-starter" for me. If Leica comes out with an "M2" mode- just skip the metering function and I can use my Weston Master II, and My M9 went out- "Maybe". Until then, the M8, M9, and M Monochrom are all going strong. I did check two of my Digital cameras from the 1990s. The Kodak DC120 works fine, but the Nikon 600 is dead. I'll have to drag out the Nikon E3 and the Kodak DCS200ir. The Nikon was just a bit less than the M11 when new, and the Kodak cost much more at $12,400 for the body alone- almost 30 years ago.
willie_901
Mentor
When using the mechanical, optical finder, there is no lag between what is seen and when the shutter is pressed compared to any other camera. There is only a human view-decide-press the shutter lag when using the EVF. My camera has a hybrid OVF/EVF finder. I only use the EVF when I use the camera as I would use a view camera. That is - when the subject is stationary and the camera is on a tripod.
I don't understand how using the M11 with the mechanical, optical finder is any different in terms of shutter latency compared to the M10.
Someone measured the Nikon Z7, Z9 and SONY A9 EVF latencies and estimated them at 25msec., 49msec. and 35msec respectively. Except for extreme action photography, these latencies are hardly an issue. Additional information on the A9 EVF latency in numerous scenarios is found here. The latency for the pre-focused case was 20-165 msec. I guess sooner or later someone will measure the M11 OVF and EVF latencies.
Interestingly the OM-D E-M1X, E-M1 Mark II, Mark III, OM-D E-M5 Mark III and Tough TG-6 mirrorless cameras have a Pro Capture Mode. In this mode the camera buffers up to 35 images during the shutter half-press before you fully press the shutter. There are limitations. The minimum lens aperture is f 8 and the focus remains locked on the first buffered image.