Ororaro
Well-known
Paperwork means nothing. A decade ago, and until lately, empty documents could be found on the net.
(Also, as an aside and off topic, Don Goldberg has purchased the whole old factory lot from Leica directly: all the old parts, rare and new. Tools… Many bits that, in the wrong hands, could cause harm on the Leica historical market.)
There was a scandalous ebay seller who used to sell counterfeit leicas (repaints) with counterfeit paperwork. Got unmasked, about 5 years ago if I remember correctly. Made crazy money. Now, all those fakes are in the wild and have been converted to being “originals”, and accepted as such.
The chinese and japanese black and gray market has become extremely Dangerous to Leica originals.
First off, the original Leicavit MP: They have no serial numbers, and the black paint variant is EXTREMELY rare. However, the lack of serial numbers has created a flood of repaints being passed as “originals”. The thing is, an original Black Paint has a 2-line engraving on the back, while a silver leicavit has a 3-line engraving. That is official info.
That is the sole distinguisher.
Money being money, even the big auctions have overlooked this fact, in the past, selling repainted Leicavits as “originals” and as “factory repaint”. Such an easy gimmick. The “trust me Bro” kind.
One easy distinguisher is the black paint itself: there was only ONE KIND of black paint. The Leicavits and fake M2 and M3 come with many different kinds of black paints, some are brassed, some not, but a loupe will give out any difference. Leica wasn’t playing with different paints; they had only one kind. And when you know what is an original black paint Leica, you can easily spot the fake ones.
A brassed original leica will brass in a certain way, very far from the Brassed jobs we see being passed on as “heavily used”. Flaking paint and all. There’s no way a 34 old chinese Leica/Rolex reseller was present in 1964 to have first habd experience. Nor in 2008 when the market was still easy, because in 2008 they were too busy with nintendo games. It has sadly become a “trust me bro” tainted market.
The chinese manufacturing has become so good, the laser engravers have become so perfect, that we have now started seeing perfect manufactured copies. The M3 black paint top plates without serial numbers that used to be accessible are now perfectly engraved.
Many silver bodies have been puttie’d and re-engraved.
Many are also passed on as “factory repaint because, back then, one could pay for the service” and come with fake documentation.
There are many ways to tell true Leicas. One of them is the glue underneath the top plate, holding the windows. That glue is specific, and differe than the glue used today for repaints.
So on…
(Also, as an aside and off topic, Don Goldberg has purchased the whole old factory lot from Leica directly: all the old parts, rare and new. Tools… Many bits that, in the wrong hands, could cause harm on the Leica historical market.)
There was a scandalous ebay seller who used to sell counterfeit leicas (repaints) with counterfeit paperwork. Got unmasked, about 5 years ago if I remember correctly. Made crazy money. Now, all those fakes are in the wild and have been converted to being “originals”, and accepted as such.
The chinese and japanese black and gray market has become extremely Dangerous to Leica originals.
First off, the original Leicavit MP: They have no serial numbers, and the black paint variant is EXTREMELY rare. However, the lack of serial numbers has created a flood of repaints being passed as “originals”. The thing is, an original Black Paint has a 2-line engraving on the back, while a silver leicavit has a 3-line engraving. That is official info.
That is the sole distinguisher.
Money being money, even the big auctions have overlooked this fact, in the past, selling repainted Leicavits as “originals” and as “factory repaint”. Such an easy gimmick. The “trust me Bro” kind.
One easy distinguisher is the black paint itself: there was only ONE KIND of black paint. The Leicavits and fake M2 and M3 come with many different kinds of black paints, some are brassed, some not, but a loupe will give out any difference. Leica wasn’t playing with different paints; they had only one kind. And when you know what is an original black paint Leica, you can easily spot the fake ones.
A brassed original leica will brass in a certain way, very far from the Brassed jobs we see being passed on as “heavily used”. Flaking paint and all. There’s no way a 34 old chinese Leica/Rolex reseller was present in 1964 to have first habd experience. Nor in 2008 when the market was still easy, because in 2008 they were too busy with nintendo games. It has sadly become a “trust me bro” tainted market.
The chinese manufacturing has become so good, the laser engravers have become so perfect, that we have now started seeing perfect manufactured copies. The M3 black paint top plates without serial numbers that used to be accessible are now perfectly engraved.
Many silver bodies have been puttie’d and re-engraved.
Many are also passed on as “factory repaint because, back then, one could pay for the service” and come with fake documentation.
There are many ways to tell true Leicas. One of them is the glue underneath the top plate, holding the windows. That glue is specific, and differe than the glue used today for repaints.
So on…
Anyone that has the wherewithal and is in the market for legit 'crazy money' Leica collectibles has the savvy and funds to ensure they aren't taken.
If the modern black paint is so easily differentiated from the original, then it doesn't really matter how good modern engravings are.
I paint Leicas but they are obvious repaints, I don't try to recreate the original gloss. My work is strictly to remove the ugly.
If the modern black paint is so easily differentiated from the original, then it doesn't really matter how good modern engravings are.
I paint Leicas but they are obvious repaints, I don't try to recreate the original gloss. My work is strictly to remove the ugly.
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
Anything can be faked now days. A friend of mine bought a used audiophile amp (Accuphase if that means anything) off of an acquaintance he met on an enthusiast group for around US$16k. It turned out to be a copy cat when he took it to an authorised dealer for some adjustments. The seller was apologetic and gave a refund but probably knew being an enthusiast himself and wanted to pass it on to the next sucker,
Duofold RF
Well-known
It smells repainted job
Richard G
Mentor
Were the strap lugs black paint in 1966?
Yes, legit bp M2 from that year could have black lugs.
A 1965 was auctioned for 65k euros in 2021. It had a black 35/2 lens and meter also, and box.
There was some variation in black bodies. Some had black shutter button surrounds, some chrome. Some bottom plate latches were black, but not all.
Vince Lupo
Barely Known
Four suggestions for possible authentication and/or purchase: i) Jim Lager; ii) Leica Camera Classics (formerly Leica Shop) in Vienna (also home to Westlicht Auctions or whatever they are now called) iii) Sam Shoshan/Classic Connection; iv) Jo Geier in Vienna.
All four of these are highly regarded in the Leica world and should be able to help the OP out. Actually Lars Netopil in Wetzlar would be another good option. I’ve personally dealt with Sam Shoshan (longtime friend of mine) and Jo Geier as well as the Leica Shop and highly recommend all of them. Jim Lager probably knows more about Leica classics than anyone, but he is not a dealer.
Not to be Captain Obvious here, but if one of the above-mentioned dealers wanted to buy the camera from you (assuming it is authentic) they’d likely give you about half its actual value.
All four of these are highly regarded in the Leica world and should be able to help the OP out. Actually Lars Netopil in Wetzlar would be another good option. I’ve personally dealt with Sam Shoshan (longtime friend of mine) and Jo Geier as well as the Leica Shop and highly recommend all of them. Jim Lager probably knows more about Leica classics than anyone, but he is not a dealer.
Not to be Captain Obvious here, but if one of the above-mentioned dealers wanted to buy the camera from you (assuming it is authentic) they’d likely give you about half its actual value.
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Both are with
The M2 I mentioned above was auctioned here.
Vince Lupo
Barely Known
Ah ok - but they also do buy and sell on their own.Both are with
The M2 I mentioned above was auctioned here.
Deardorff38
Mentor
The Leica Store in Vienna has a couple of black paint M2 currently listed around € 30k.
skahde
V for Victory!
To me the paintjobs surface looks better in condition than some parts of the camera underneath if you zoom in on the right spots.
Deardorff38
Mentor
I've always disagreed with the author's premise that worn black paint cameras "look like crap." The patina on Jim Marshall's, Abbas' & other black Ms always struck me as beautiful signs of use.
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Ororaro
Well-known
NOS BP M324Leicas look as if they were Black Chrome. The Patina makes them shiny, starting from very Matte and going to very shiny, with use.
Deardorff38
Mentor
Closer to 4x and up. Leica Store in Vienna has an outlier 1968 M4 listed for €29,900 ! Lot's of them on Ebay around $12k USD.That article from 2016 wasn't very prophetic, prices of black paint M4s, just for example, are about 3x today.
Serious collectors aren't going to be fooled.
M2PHOTOS
Newbie
I'm replying because some of you hurt my feelings lol. I'm new here and I'm here to learn.
What I have has been in storage for around 50 years and it's in pristine condition because it has not been touched 🦄.
I know it's shocking.. write down the numbers, hopefully, we will all read about it in Vienna next year
What I have has been in storage for around 50 years and it's in pristine condition because it has not been touched 🦄.
I know it's shocking.. write down the numbers, hopefully, we will all read about it in Vienna next year
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I'm not a collector. My $700 M4-2 bought in 2012 is chugging along just fine. I have no idea what it's worth now, don't really care. An M2, silver or black, is similarly a nice camera that I would buy to use; I would not pay a premium to get it as a collectible.
G
G
Deardorff38
Mentor
I agree. They are great tools. A nice chrome M4 lists for $1800-2000 on the bay. A well-known (non-Japanese) dealer in Japan has one listed in box with warranty card for $7000. $5000 is sure a lot of money for a box and some paperwork.
Deardorff38
Mentor
Ned, I disagree with you. The paint bodies always reflect more light. At the same time, with wear, the fine scratch marks in the paint makes them duller overall.
photo 1. black paint M4
photo 2 black chrome M4
photo 3. worn black paint M4
Ororaro
Well-known
By “NOS M234 Black paint” I meant “New Old Stock M2, M3 and M4 Black paint”.
A New, never touched, original M2 M3 M4 Black Paint definitely looks like it’s not Black Paint but some sort of chrome. With usage it quickly gains a patina.
A New, never touched, original M2 M3 M4 Black Paint definitely looks like it’s not Black Paint but some sort of chrome. With usage it quickly gains a patina.