Rangefinder Digital with fixed lens?

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PetarDima

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Mr. Pierce, if my memory serve me well, you've discussed once in Nuts and Bolts about small digital camera with better performance than small sensor P&S cameras ... what's your opinion about Sigma DP1 ... or some similar camera
in near future?
Regards, Vlad.
 
I've fallen so far behind in looking at the small digitals that anything I would say would be the ultimate in ignorance. For me, right now, the small camera is the M8. Small camera; huge price.
 
Bill Pierce said:
I've fallen so far behind in looking at the small digitals that anything I would say would be the ultimate in ignorance. For me, right now, the small camera is the M8. Small camera; huge price.
Click to expand...

that REALLY is ultimate ignorance... with all respect to you - i just cant imagine that anyone could say thing like that. i understand that you are a leica user and maybe you have to make promotion of their new camera - but there are many cameras in this world which can take good photo beside m8. even with small digital cameras some people make terrific shots. i think that person like you should be a little less elitistic.
 
That's funny, I thought it was a brilliant comment from someone who understood the limits of his knowledge. IMHO a sign of greatness, someone who I would listen to just about anything he says because he will not just blabble to hear himself speak. What he adds truely adds value.

Very interesting world, no?

B2 (;->
 
nzeeman said:
that REALLY is ultimate ignorance... with all respect to you - i just cant imagine that anyone could say thing like that. i understand that you are a leica user and maybe you have to make promotion of their new camera - but there are many cameras in this world which can take good photo beside m8. even with small digital cameras some people make terrific shots. i think that person like you should be a little less elitistic.
Click to expand...
Um- dude- he's saying he isn't familiar with every camera out there, and that he uses the M8- not that it's the best camera, just that it's the one he happens to use. I'm sure no one would argue the fact that a good photographer can make a good pciture with any camera. He's not being elitist, just stating his experience. Re-read his post.
 
I believe all he is saying is that the M8 is that camera for HIM, not anyone else. Furthermore, he has not done the research to recommend what that camera might be for someone else. This to me is the same as going up to a professional photographer in the 60's or 70's and saying " I've heard the Yashica Electro series takes a good photograph, what do you think?" I would not be amazed if they knew nothing of the series nor really cared. I don't find this to be elitist at all considering he has been a professional photographer for longer than either of us have been alive.
 
Bill Pierce said:
I've fallen so far behind in looking at the small digitals that anything I would say would be the ultimate in ignorance. For me, right now, the small camera is the M8. Small camera; huge price.
Click to expand...

I think this is O.K. ... Epson RD1 is out of race( not for a long time, I hope :) ),
and P&S digicams have too small sensors ... that's why I asked about DP1,
first small camera with APS sensor ... I like whole idea about it ... wide 28mm is O.K. too - only slow speed f4 lens is problem No1. - problem No2. is foveon on
ISO 800 and higher ... I thought that this can be fine topic for photo-journalists
and street photographers.
Regards,
Vlad.
 
drewbarb said:
Elitistical interpretated ignorancism. Jeez, this thread got off track in a hurry, huh?
Click to expand...

yes, that's why I tried to get it back on main topic/idea:
rf-like camera with fixed lens and APS sensor ( imagine Yashica GSN or something like that - from RF fixed lens era :) ) ... any thoughts abot that?
 
Wow....we have not had a silly pissing match in weeks. Is this evidence of pent up demand...lol

Bill's comment is great and I agree with his pov.

Bob
 
I can only tell you what some friends are doing as far as small digitals. When I need small, I'm back to film - the Leitz Minilux with the fixed 40mm lens or the Contax with the fixed 35mm lens. They're small, very quiet, auto everything. You don't attract attention with them, and the auto everything let's you shoot quickly with a minimum of fuss, even shoot from the hip if the situation demands it.

The digital equivalents of these cameras, in some cases, seem to grow in size from model to model. That defeats the purpose of a lot of the folks I know who want a pocketable camera or one that in some way they can always have with them. Since that can mean grab shooting, there is no objection to a lot of automation - especially if it can be turned off when appropriate.

One thing everybody seems to want is a raw file.

These highly automated, small cameras are evolving so rapidly that what folks are using seems to change every 6 months. Within my tiny group the current favorite is the Canon G9. One thing for sure, you see a lot of professionals using digital cameras like this for their street photography and candids, when, in the film days they would be using a Leica or other rf camera. It seems odd that a $500 camera with a zoom lens should be the competition for a $5000 camera with no lens.

I suppose my greatest regret related to all of this is the impossibility of young photojournalists or documentary photographers affording M8's. In my day, Leica hung around playgrounds and gave us all "loaners." The first one was free, and once hooked we became Leica users for life.
 
Bill Pierce said:
I can only tell you what some friends are doing as far as small digitals. When I need small, I'm back to film - the Leitz Minilux with the fixed 40mm lens or the Contax with the fixed 35mm lens. They're small, very quiet, auto everything. You don't attract attention with them, and the auto everything let's you shoot quickly with a minimum of fuss, even shoot from the hip if the situation demands it.

The digital equivalents of these cameras, in some cases, seem to grow in size from model to model. That defeats the purpose of a lot of the folks I know who want a pocketable camera or one that in some way they can always have with them. Since that can mean grab shooting, there is no objection to a lot of automation - especially if it can be turned off when appropriate.

One thing everybody seems to want is a raw file.

These highly automated, small cameras are evolving so rapidly that what folks are using seems to change every 6 months. Within my tiny group the current favorite is the Canon G9. One thing for sure, you see a lot of professionals using digital cameras like this for their street photography and candids, when, in the film days they would be using a Leica or other rf camera. It seems odd that a $500 camera with a zoom lens should be the competition for a $5000 camera with no lens.

I suppose my greatest regret related to all of this is the impossibility of young photojournalists or documentary photographers affording M8's. In my day, Leica hung around playgrounds and gave us all "loaners." The first one was free, and once hooked we became Leica users for life.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Mr. Pierce, that was the answer I was looking for :)
 
Bill Pierce said:
In my day, Leica hung around playgrounds and gave us all "loaners." The first one was free, and once hooked we became Leica users for life.
Click to expand...

I think they're still doing this for Leica-sponsored workshops. A couple years ago I was photographing the Greenwich Village Halloween Parade and ran into some students in Steve Anchell's street photography workshop at ICP that I think he runs annually at the parade. Leica was a sponsor, and the students all had their choice of film or digital Leicas to play with.
 
Just as the original Leica created a furor with its "miniature" film format ("It's too small to be good!"), I believe that small sensors, while limited as far as image quality is concerned, do have a role, as Bill has shown. What the smaller digicams have missed, though is the user interface, which is what Leica had in abundance when it was introduced.

With all the buttons and menu structures of a digicam, a street photographer has to spend a significant amount of time essentially learning how defeat all that stuff and just apply his/her knowledge and skill to making pictures.

Only the R-D1 and M8 come close to being a straightforward RF in the digital world. Bill seems to have found a spot for the G9, Alex Majoli has used the Oly 5050 much like an RF, and I'm sure there are others.

As the p&s digicam models continue to roll out, they all want to cram more pixels into the same small space, which introduces more image quality issues ... so if I find a digicam that has the handling I want, chances are the image quality is crap.

Aside: I recently put a LF lens up for sale on eBay, and used my lowly C2000 with a whopping 2.1MP sensor to make the photos.

0c69_1.JPG


I shot it in SHQ JPG, and the quality was very good for an "obsolete" camera.

I could live with this camera if it could be set up and handled like an RF, but it can't.

For a small, discreet street camera I resort to the XA. The 35SP is the size of an M (literally), and gives me more control, but the XA is actually less visible to others. Give me a digital XA with APS-C or (gasp!) "full frame" sensor, and I'll be happy. As long as it doesn't cost $5k.
 
Camera responsiveness is important

Camera responsiveness is important

Hi all and Bill,

I feel any street camera must be responsive as well as small and that's where manually focused lenses are great. They are small and the user with experience can become very fast at achieving focus. If you wish you can set the focus ahead of time and this will work in many instances and it's fast.

From what I usually see on the market in a small digital camera with non interchangeable lenses they are usually a zoom lens. I had for a while a Caonon G7 and still have my Leica D-Lux 2. I have found contrast AF of the type used with these p&s cameras will slow things down. The Sigma DP-1 version however is a fixed lens prime and so are some of the Ricoh's. They are still AF cameras and that's going to be the rub. Maybe not for the average person. But for me and I would think many others a small p&s with a mf prime lens would be nice. The lens should be a proper lens with scale focusing in meter and feet as well as manual aperture ring. If you could change the lens for another with a differenf focal length, then that would allow for a system camera. Then we will be there!
The Epson RD-1 was very nice, I used one and I wish I had one now.
The Leica M8 is also very nice. I have a friend who has one. I have the M5 and they are close in size. I'd rather have the M8.
But what I carry every day is my Nikon D1H with a fast 50mm f/1.4 on it. I use it because it has a very good shutter time with very little black out and shutter lag. It is such a responsive camera that even though I only have older Nikkor AIS lenses I still get the shot! Most any shooting adjustments I need are right on the external body and don't take long to change. Actually I set the camera up before I go out so I usually do not need to make any shooting changes.
In summation then for me what is important is camera responsiveness.
 
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