bert26
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Hi,
I scan all my black and white negs flat in Vuescan and then in Lightroom I adjust them. I hold option and drag the white slider to the right until there is no more white showing. I do the same with the black slider but to the left. I then adjust contrast, highlights, shadows, and then go back and redo the white and black points since those values change along with the other adjustments
Should I even be messing with the white and black points? Should I just adjust contrast, shadows, highlights, and that's it?
Curves adjustments are essentially the same thing as using the LR sliders save for white and black points adjustments, yeah?
Here is a link to the method I've been using but I'd only gotten feedback from one person and want to see if anyone else is doing it this way...
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169042
And I cannot use a curves adjustment. I like LR because the sliders allow me to see exactly what I'm doing. Curves stress me out so bad and even if they didn't the curves chart in LR is like 1x1"
Thank you in advance for helping me keep some of my sanity
PS: I had forgotten to switch to Professional when I made took those screenshots. All the settings are the same except for I'm using D-76 Cl .55 and curve low is .25 and high is .75 so it's completely flat.
I scan all my black and white negs flat in Vuescan and then in Lightroom I adjust them. I hold option and drag the white slider to the right until there is no more white showing. I do the same with the black slider but to the left. I then adjust contrast, highlights, shadows, and then go back and redo the white and black points since those values change along with the other adjustments
Should I even be messing with the white and black points? Should I just adjust contrast, shadows, highlights, and that's it?
Curves adjustments are essentially the same thing as using the LR sliders save for white and black points adjustments, yeah?
Here is a link to the method I've been using but I'd only gotten feedback from one person and want to see if anyone else is doing it this way...
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169042
And I cannot use a curves adjustment. I like LR because the sliders allow me to see exactly what I'm doing. Curves stress me out so bad and even if they didn't the curves chart in LR is like 1x1"
Thank you in advance for helping me keep some of my sanity
PS: I had forgotten to switch to Professional when I made took those screenshots. All the settings are the same except for I'm using D-76 Cl .55 and curve low is .25 and high is .75 so it's completely flat.
lawrence
Mentor
Although I use LR for cataloguing I tend to prefer PS for 'development' and I find that, as you say, adjusting contrast, shadows and highlights is perfectly adequate for all my monochrome images. Normally I also (minimally) use the spot healing tool as well as a bit of USM in the range 50-100 and that's it. Others swear by b&w points and although I've tried this I've never seen an improvement in my results. I think it's just a question of what you are personally comfortable with.
Ronald M
Mentor
Levels are your friend so your image is full scale. Use the gamma slider in middle to fine tune brightness.
Exposure moves whole histogram left or right. Brightness move the mid tones only
Make a slight curve and save as a preset.
Contrast just pushes tones from middle to either end. Generally crap. It flattens mid tone contrast
Use curve or clarity to increase mid tone contrast or combination of the two.
Exposure moves whole histogram left or right. Brightness move the mid tones only
Make a slight curve and save as a preset.
Contrast just pushes tones from middle to either end. Generally crap. It flattens mid tone contrast
Use curve or clarity to increase mid tone contrast or combination of the two.
Steve M.
Mentor
Not with film, assuming your exposures are in the ballpark (something that is not "good enough" w/ digital due to easily blown highlights). Back in my film scanning days, in P7 all I had to do was go to Brightness/Contrast, maybe make an adjustment there, and use curves if necessary. Usually it wasn't.
Film, even scanned film, is eons ahead of digital when it comes to exposure latitude. I once shot a landscape, came inside a coffeehouse, and took a pic inside while forgetting to reset the shutter. You could just barely make out an image on the negative, but after pulling things out of the neg in software (this is one occasion where levels was necessary), I was still able to get a print!
Film, even scanned film, is eons ahead of digital when it comes to exposure latitude. I once shot a landscape, came inside a coffeehouse, and took a pic inside while forgetting to reset the shutter. You could just barely make out an image on the negative, but after pulling things out of the neg in software (this is one occasion where levels was necessary), I was still able to get a print!
bert26
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Lawrence:
Soon, I am going to go back and rescan all my negatives. Not as daunting as it sounds because I know which frames on each roll are worth scanning. So I need to learn how to catalog my images in LR to avoid the cluster**** I've created for myself. I also use the spot healing tool for dust and find it very useful. The b&w points confuse me because I feel I'm just blindly accepting some "rule of thumb" but I can not tell for the life of me when a white is white and a black black, but usually seems close enough at 0.
Ronald:
****, I didn't realize the contrast slider did that. I just assumed it worked well since LR is Adobe software bundled with Photoshop. I don't see a brightness or gamma slider.
Steve M:
Made a quick S curve in LR and looks about the same labor intensive process of moving sliders back and forth over and over since one adjustment seemed to affect the one previous etc. What do you think? I've attached the result of each method below:
Screenshot 2019-08-01 15.25.45
Screenshot 2019-08-01 15.22.07
I wish there was a way to make the curve chart bigger. Doesn't get much bigger in LR either. Would be nice to see more of what I'm doing but judging by what I just did in one minute, maybe it isn't necessary..
And I didn't get around to removing the scratches on this one yet, the lab seems to be rushed and scratching rolls from time to time.
Soon, I am going to go back and rescan all my negatives. Not as daunting as it sounds because I know which frames on each roll are worth scanning. So I need to learn how to catalog my images in LR to avoid the cluster**** I've created for myself. I also use the spot healing tool for dust and find it very useful. The b&w points confuse me because I feel I'm just blindly accepting some "rule of thumb" but I can not tell for the life of me when a white is white and a black black, but usually seems close enough at 0.
Ronald:
****, I didn't realize the contrast slider did that. I just assumed it worked well since LR is Adobe software bundled with Photoshop. I don't see a brightness or gamma slider.
Steve M:
Made a quick S curve in LR and looks about the same labor intensive process of moving sliders back and forth over and over since one adjustment seemed to affect the one previous etc. What do you think? I've attached the result of each method below:
Screenshot 2019-08-01 15.25.45Screenshot 2019-08-01 15.22.07I wish there was a way to make the curve chart bigger. Doesn't get much bigger in LR either. Would be nice to see more of what I'm doing but judging by what I just did in one minute, maybe it isn't necessary..
And I didn't get around to removing the scratches on this one yet, the lab seems to be rushed and scratching rolls from time to time.
Larry H-L
Well-known
If you are you getting results that you like, I would not worry too much about how you get there, I'm sure each of us adds our own bits to the process.
I personally scan a touch flat in VueScan and then set small black and white points using the option key in PS or LR, as you describe. Watching the histogram can tell you if you are nearing the end points, and in LR you can activate the clipping warnings by clicking the small triangles inside the histogram box. That will show you blocked up and blownout areas.
From there, you can add sharpening, clarity, curves, or whatever you desire to make it yours.
I personally scan a touch flat in VueScan and then set small black and white points using the option key in PS or LR, as you describe. Watching the histogram can tell you if you are nearing the end points, and in LR you can activate the clipping warnings by clicking the small triangles inside the histogram box. That will show you blocked up and blownout areas.
From there, you can add sharpening, clarity, curves, or whatever you desire to make it yours.
bert26
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And adjusting the contrast slider is definitely a no go then? Clarity somehow increases contrast? And is the idea to have the black and white points just set exactly where the histogram flatlines?
Sorry, I shoot lots of photos and was a videographer/editor for years and years, but never got very good at post processing but it seems like it should be a quick straightforward process since I'm not shooting color.
Thanks Larry
Sorry, I shoot lots of photos and was a videographer/editor for years and years, but never got very good at post processing but it seems like it should be a quick straightforward process since I'm not shooting color.
Thanks Larry
dourbalistar
Buy more film
I use Lightroom for my post processing. Generally, other than cloning out dust and scratches, I try to do as little digital post processing as possible. However, I set the black and white points by dragging the ends of the tone curve, rather than using the other tone sliders. As Larry H-L describes above, I use the clipping warnings (using the shortcut key "J"). As you can see in the example below, all the other sliders are at zero. I use a digital camera to digitize, and the capture is pretty flat to begin with. In the Tone Curve panel, you can see the original histogram is bunched in the middle, and slightly biased to the right.
LR - Setting black and white points by dourbalistar, on Flickr
LR - Setting black and white points by dourbalistar, on Flickr
bert26
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I'm a bit confused about the importance of clipping warnings because if I hold option while sliding the white or black points either way, it has the same effect as sliding back and forth without holding the option button. The only difference being red or blue dots over the image instead of white dots on a black screen. I don't get any sort of clipping warnings when adjusting highlights or shadows unless there's something I'm missing. Whether I set the highlights and shadows to -100 or +100, they still don't reach the end points of the histogram which is also confusing. I'm trying to find youtube tutorials but it is just videos of obnoxious people with funny haircuts talking about using histograms within DSLRs.
And when making an S curve instead of using any of the sliders, it stretches the histogram the same way the contrast slider does so how is using the slider a bad thing? Setting black and white points, highlights, and shadows alone don't bump the contrast and adding clarity just makes the image look hilariously sharp. Maybe I should just stick to what I was doing but it would be nice to get rid of some of the time consuming guess work leading me to do 5 exports with subtle differences. Dunno why I'm having a hard time grasping this.
And when making an S curve instead of using any of the sliders, it stretches the histogram the same way the contrast slider does so how is using the slider a bad thing? Setting black and white points, highlights, and shadows alone don't bump the contrast and adding clarity just makes the image look hilariously sharp. Maybe I should just stick to what I was doing but it would be nice to get rid of some of the time consuming guess work leading me to do 5 exports with subtle differences. Dunno why I'm having a hard time grasping this.
Dan Daniel
Well-known
With Vuescan, have you set the Buffer for any amount? It's in the Crop tab. This has Vuescan ignore the outer edges of a scan for setting levels. Meaning that it won't be taking either the negative holder (white) or film base (black) into account, leading to a fuller range scan of the actual info in the negative. I go for as full a range scan as I can get, with no concern over the look. All adjustments are made in Photoshop.
olifaunt
Well-known
Auto-adjusting levels should select black and white points automatically in most PP software. They are taken where the histogram becomes 0 (or close enough to it, for some value of close enough). This make only the brightest spot(s) in your photo white (or as bright as the display or paper can be) and the darkest spot(s) black and makes the histogram fill the entire range. Sometimes an auto levels adjustment cuts off a bit too much of one of the close-to-zero RGB channels, for example, and your sky goes green or your highlights go harsh and you have to manually correct this.
But there is no rule that the picture has to go from whitest white to darkest black. That's an artistic choice.
But there is no rule that the picture has to go from whitest white to darkest black. That's an artistic choice.
Peter Jennings
Well-known
I do camera scans and use Capture 1 instead of Lightroom, but since these are basic operations I'd assume the tools and methods would be similar across platforms. I start with an auto levels adjustment to set the black and white points - like olifaunt mentions. After that I do fine tuning with highlights, shadows, clarity, and then brightness and contrast, if needed.
I came at this workflow through trying different things and found it was easiest at getting the results I liked best. However, I've learned that there are many different routes to getting to the same destination. Basically, if you like what you're getting, don't worry about the method. But also, don't be afraid to experiment.
I came at this workflow through trying different things and found it was easiest at getting the results I liked best. However, I've learned that there are many different routes to getting to the same destination. Basically, if you like what you're getting, don't worry about the method. But also, don't be afraid to experiment.
bert26
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So you put the buffer at 0? Mine has been set at 8 forever. Is it crucial to change to 0 (or did you mean 50) if I'm resetting the points in LR afterwards? I'd rather not go back and rescan the last 8 rolls unless I really should. And I always scan the borders because since every frame is always a bit askew, it makes it easy to straighten them out in LR. But this winter I will be rescanning something like 200 rolls so I can catalog them and have consistency in my scans. For a while I didn't know better and was using the Tri-X preset in Silverfast. Thanks again Dan.
Peter and Olifaunt: Damn you're right about the auto levels for black and white! I checked them against mine on an image I already edited and I was in the ballpark but they look much better now.
And as for clarity, what are you usually adjusting to when shooting Tri-X or something? After setting whites, blacks, shadows, and highlights, ya'll seldom mess with contrast adjustments because somehow a clarity boost increases contrast?
And Peter that is so reassuring to know this is your workflow also. Everyone seems to do it differently but man, using curves just takes me forever because I can't really tell what exactly is going on. I like seeing the numbers.
Dourbalistar: using a DSLR to digitize negatives seems so rad. Seems to make the negatives how they're "supposed to look" requiring little editing or maybe I'm wrong. No money for a DSLR anytime soon and I'll just stick to scanning. Eventually I just wanna make darkroom prints and scan those. A friend of mine does that and they look better than any scan I've ever seen.
I really appreciate all of you, I'm learning a lot and as I said, youtube tutorials are awful.
EDIT: Okay, it seems like really all I need to know at this point is what to set the buffer at in Vuescan when including the negative holder and film base in the scan.
I did 2 quick edits.
This one: I set the white and black points at auto levels, added +10 clarity, took the shadows way down, and left highlights alone. No contrast boost.
This one is exactly the same except I added +30 contrast. What looks better to you?
Not crazy about the picture itself but it's a recent scan and think it's a good image to work with for example purposes. And in the past I always set contrast to 50 first thing before everything else. Going backwards, the other adjustments alone make it so maybe no contrast or very little is necessary? Sorry, I'm just about done asking a million questions.
EDIT: One more from this roll
Same process as before but with +.3 exposure, burning the feet and shirt, and no contrast boost.
Aaaand with a contrast boost of +20. On both I used +10 clarity and that seems to be the sweet spot. Really makes the grain pop without looking shopped.
Seems like the way to go is just not using the contrast slider at all and relying solely on shadows and highlights. I set highlights with auto settings and eyeballed shadows and seems to work well. And as far as exposure, at what point is the image not really worth it? Image quality starts to get real ****ty at like what, +1?
Okay that's it I promise.