Bingley
Mentor
+1 for the T. It's certainly the cheapest M-mount rf I've seen. It's like a Barnack w/ mod cons. And, for being so lightweight, I've found it remarkably sturdy; it's my principal carry these days on hikes and backpacking trips. It's also an excellent back-up camera body to a Leica M.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
I handled both a CL and a Bessa-L at a camera show recently. Now I know which one I'll be saving for
I'm trying to like the L and T, since they're certainly budget-friendly, but I just can't. To me, they're amputated plastic SLRs with the true sign of the devil (i.e., the Phillips-head screw) staring me in the face everywhere I look and a double shutter* that sounds like an SLR, too.
I'm sorry, I already have a camera like that, made by Cosina in circa 1984. It's called a Konica TC-X, it's the ugliest thing you've ever seen, but it's small, light, fully mechanical, takes a single AAA battery for the meter, carries a 40/1.8 Hexanon pancake lens most of the time, works like a charm and cost 20 bucks, shipped, with the lens. Which is exactly what it's worth.
I better put on my flame-proof suit now, but as the weather guy on Maine public radio is wont to say, "that's the way it looks from here."
*(Can somebody explain to me why Copal shutters were perfectly light tight in all those fixed-lens RFs of the seventies, but not in Bessas? Cost-cutting? Or is it during lens changes that a single one is not enough?)
First, Bessa L is not a camera in the group we're talking about on this thread: it's not an M-mount camera...
Second, Bessa T is sturdy and quiet, at least both of mine...
Third, the CL, that cheap, short EBL, budget-friendly coming to pieces camera you're saving for, will be enough for your photography, so it's fine.
Cheers,
Juan
I handled both a CL and a Bessa-L at a camera show recently. Now I know which one I'll be saving for
*(Can somebody explain to me why Copal shutters were perfectly light tight in all those fixed-lens RFs of the seventies, but not in Bessas? Cost-cutting? Or is it during lens changes that a single one is not enough?)
The fixed-lens RF's of the 70s used leaflet shutters, not focal plane shutters. Leaflet shutters are mostly light-tight, but some cameras used a double set of blades. The Polaroid 180, Polaroid 195, and Voigtlander Prominent come to mind as using a double-shutter.
My Argus/Cosina STL-1000 from 1971 is still working fine. The CL needed to go to KEH to have a jammed shutter repaired. That repair cost more than the STL-1000 did in 1971. That was a lot of newspapers being delivered!
I have a Leica CL and a Bessa R2. The pitch of the shutter is different, but neither are quiet compared to a freshly CLA'd M2 or M3.
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batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Point taken, brain fart on my end. Mind you I never did say film plane etc. but I shouldn't have lumped all Copal shutters into one.
Is that so? Not challenging you, just haven't read this particular claim anywhere else before. I was under the impression that the shutters open one after the other. Counter-running or not, that would be two jolts.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Yes, I know. The T and L are similar enough to help with my decision, though, as related above.
ferider
Mentor
The two shutters open and close together, and the jolts go in opposite directions. Loud but less camera shake.
The most interesting question for me is why the Hexar RF is so much quieter than the Bessas.
Here is some interesting info on Copal shutter history: http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html
Roland.
mark-b
Well-known
Bessa R3a.
SimonSawSunlight
Simon Fabel
cheapest M-mount camera I bought was a leica cl i got for my girl for about 180€. followed by my M2 for 250€.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
I handled both a CL and a Bessa-L at a camera show recently. Now I know which one I'll be saving for
I'm trying to like the L and T, since they're certainly budget-friendly, but I just can't. To me, they're amputated plastic SLRs with the true sign of the devil (i.e., the Phillips-head screw) staring me in the face everywhere I look and a double shutter* that sounds like an SLR, too.
I'm sorry, I already have a camera like that, made by Cosina in circa 1984. It's called a Konica TC-X, it's the ugliest thing you've ever seen, but it's small, light, fully mechanical, takes a single AAA battery for the meter, carries a 40/1.8 Hexanon pancake lens most of the time, works like a charm and cost 20 bucks, shipped, with the lens. Which is exactly what it's worth.
I better put on my flame-proof suit now, but as the weather guy on Maine public radio is wont to say, "that's the way it looks from here."
*(Can somebody explain to me why Copal shutters were perfectly light tight in all those fixed-lens RFs of the seventies, but not in Bessas? Cost-cutting? Or is it during lens changes that a single one is not enough?)
I guess you haven't used a Bessa T... They're sturdy as other forum members have stated, and quiet too... And they're made of metal inside, with just a bit of external and strong plastic to make it lighter... A great camera for those of us who have used it a lot... The CL is a bit of a risk, as years ago it can't be repaired because some parts are not available, and its short EBL makes it a not so good option for long/fast lenses... And comparing a T to SLR's just makes no sense from any point of view...
Cheers,
Juan
Spyro
Well-known
So in practice, for someone who already has an M camera for general use, what is a T worth buying for? A superfast lens you want to focus very accurately?
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
The same reasons M owners have for buying a Barnack, and a few more of high importance, like easy loading, being lighter, having faster shutter speeds, and a great meter in camera that can be seen from every camera position.
Cheers,
Juan
Cheers,
Juan
BillBingham2
Registered User
The last new price I remember is about $200 or so. I sold two in good condition (one NIB) for around $180 to $150 USD a few years back. Not sure what they go for now but my bet is about that or lower. It was the first camera to accept the winder which is a required accessory. Let's you hang is sideways from the right (IMHO correct) side.
B2 (;->
B2 (;->
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
They've gone up in price like best CV products... I paid more for my 2 used T's... More than $300 each... They're not very easy to find, especially black ones... Both of mine were sent from Japan. Normally there's none at KEH.com, and right now there's a silver one on ebay (original, not Heliar commemorative version) with the 15 and viewfinder for $950. For sure most owners have preferred to keep theirs...
Cheers,
Juan
Bingley
Mentor
Yikes! I paid $150 for mine from another member here several years ago. So maybe they're not the cheapest after all... Still and all, a truly useful camera...
Spyro
Well-known
Thanks Juan
David Murphy
Mentor
A beatup Minolta CLE (but who wants one!). The T does not count since it's not really a complete camera.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
There's one at $150, no bids, five days to go.
Last completed auction for a Bessa-T, body only, was $159.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Of course it makes sense. That's what a CV Bessa is, originally: Cosina's SLR design minus the mirror box. They've been hawking it under just about any big name you can think of, including Nikon, Canon and Olympus.
So, my point above was that I can get most of the supposed benefits of that Cosina body in an SLR that costs one-tenth of even a Bessa-T. An SLR that is smaller than some rangefinders, in fact, and only 7mm taller and 10mm deeper than a Bessa-R.
Therefore, I refuse to call the Bessa-T a bargain. It's a capable camera, I'm sure, but it came about because Cosina needed an image boost, and a cheap vehicle for their lenses (which is where they really make their money). Is it a good buy at $150? Probably, but don't forget the cost and hassle of the accessory finders.
I prefer to save my money for a camera that has a fantastic finder for the most useful focal lengths built right in. I'll gladly trade RF baselength for the CL's compact size. For long and/or fast lenses, I have a Contax and several SLRs.
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ferider
Mentor
While the T is a good camera (I had one), using an external viewfinder is a pain for some of us; and you have to buy it, and swap it when changing lenses (unless you use zoom or Russian finder, which have their own weaknesses). And, while the CLE sometimes can not be fixed anymore, Sherry and Ken Ruth still do a great job on overhauling the CL.
I for one find it impossible to do a close up portrait of a living, moving person with a fast normal and external viewfinder. Long EBL or not. However you can very well do that with a CL. Therefore, for 50 or 40mm, I would pick the CL over the T anytime. And the T is significantly louder. I would also pick a good Barnack over the T.
Then again, a user M2 runs around 400-500 US. In terms of bang for the buck, for me that's the one.
And if you are willing to live with LTM, the one camera that cann't be beat is the Canon P. Costs around US 200 and runs circles around the Bessa T
Roland.
I for one find it impossible to do a close up portrait of a living, moving person with a fast normal and external viewfinder. Long EBL or not. However you can very well do that with a CL. Therefore, for 50 or 40mm, I would pick the CL over the T anytime. And the T is significantly louder. I would also pick a good Barnack over the T.
Then again, a user M2 runs around 400-500 US. In terms of bang for the buck, for me that's the one.
And if you are willing to live with LTM, the one camera that cann't be beat is the Canon P. Costs around US 200 and runs circles around the Bessa T
Roland.
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Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
I preferred not buying a silver one from ebay, so I bought two black New In Box from two different Japanese stores... They're wonderful cameras! Highly recommended! I could have bought an M2 with what I paid for them, and an M3 with what I paid for my R4M, but my Bessas are able to do all Leicas do, and more, technically speaking.
Long live Cosina Voigtländer!
Cheers,
Juan
Long live Cosina Voigtländer!
Cheers,
Juan