jpberger
Established
I think there is a paradox inso far as we can define "art" as whatever we do that is not directly related to survival and reproduction, and we have a lot more time and energy for that kind of stuff when we feel secure and our basic needs are met.
Any one who has experienced deep depression, poverty, abuse, psychosis, addiction knows that these extreme states more or less completely preclude the possibility of creative expression.
At the same time one of the motivations for making art can be to achieve some sort of mental/spiritual equilibrium, and a lot of great work has come from people who are dancing on the edge of very perilous circumstances. For example Rodrigos Concerto de Arunjuez-- the product of deep grief over the loss of a child.
One of the things I've had to grapple with as an art school student is how to keep working on a practice which I developed in part to keep myself sane, which when subject to deadlines, critiques, various extenal pressure itself becomes the source of considerable anxiety. But with practice and support it gets better.
Ultimately we do a a great disservice to everyone if we romanticize misery-- the reality is that art making gives us stength to pull back from the edge of chaos and keep on keeping on. It does not depend on us being miserable.
Any one who has experienced deep depression, poverty, abuse, psychosis, addiction knows that these extreme states more or less completely preclude the possibility of creative expression.
At the same time one of the motivations for making art can be to achieve some sort of mental/spiritual equilibrium, and a lot of great work has come from people who are dancing on the edge of very perilous circumstances. For example Rodrigos Concerto de Arunjuez-- the product of deep grief over the loss of a child.
One of the things I've had to grapple with as an art school student is how to keep working on a practice which I developed in part to keep myself sane, which when subject to deadlines, critiques, various extenal pressure itself becomes the source of considerable anxiety. But with practice and support it gets better.
Ultimately we do a a great disservice to everyone if we romanticize misery-- the reality is that art making gives us stength to pull back from the edge of chaos and keep on keeping on. It does not depend on us being miserable.
Chris101
summicronia
I've come across a few well fed artists in the last couple of years. The first was a total fluke - Eric Fischl. I had long admired one of his paintings and was quite surprised - that particular painting was not one of his typical pieces. Since then, Eric has introduced me to a number of artists in his social stratum. All of them are well fed - not overfed, mind you, but making a lot of money for making the kind of art they want, rather than trying to find the stuff that sells.
As successful artists I find they share a few traits. Like Chris said they are confident in their work. It is important, and they know it going into it. This sense of the importance of their work is understated and absolute. It seems that they do not question it's value to the human condition, they expect it.
Second they have something to say. Each artist at that level of social acceptance has a primary message - perhaps it cannot be articulated verbally, but they can make stabs at it. None-the-less, their artwork is on target with few exceptions.
Third, they are thematic. Every piece relates to every other piece, or perhaps compliments it. The combination of one then another, then another statement in the same theme adds up to help them make the statement from my second point.
Finally they are selective. They do not show all their work, but only that which supports 2 and 3 of this list. Sure, they experiment, but you and I will never see the result of those experiments. The confidence of #1 is why they can do this, they need not justify what they do, so they only claim what builds them up, and disown the work that does not.
Suffering? There may be some unfulfilled desire - especially at the beginning. I suspect that is where many of us are now. And most of us will remain there, as we lack the confidence, the purity of artistic vision to make sense of the conflicted feelings that desire and lack brings. But we sense it is "out there", so we strive to attain it.
If we do, then we "make it" and get to eat well. If not, we continue to do the work we do, and spend the occasional week making do with a jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bargain bread.
ps, or it could just be a load of malarky and totally depend on your agent and the direction of the social wind.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Much. While it is not necessary, self-doubt (which may be unknown to those who employ self-motivation) is one of the biggest drivers in people's self improvement.
This is not self-doubt; it is self-editing.
True: "being an artist" is not some sort of N-Step Program. People often look for formulas, for How-Tos: how to be smarter, more sensitive, more efficient, less unhappy, funnier. There is nothing wrong with seeking. Unfortunately, there are people who seek in the wrong places.
Too much misguided confidence, however, can lead to this (if "what other people think" didn't matter, then this guy wouldn't go on a contest that is driven precisely by that principle): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGosrctwpiU
alistair.o
Well-known
Many artists, artisans are plagued with self doubt. I hesitate to place myself on their levels but I have never yet got over self doubt and even after praise I am wracked with doubts as to its genuineness. Many, many of my photographs (raw images) were 'junked' by myself after I had put up an 800x600 jpeg on t'internet at my wifes behest. Then, on the odd occasion, I have received emails asking if a copy is available - ce la vie.
As an aside, my wife is an artist and when I watch her work in charcoal I just want to junk all of everything!
Al
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Only sort of. As I said earlier, and as Chris agreed, it's not a career choice, it's a personality. If you don't have the personality, you may choose to disbelieve those who do.
Now, I drive -- but I don't call myself a driver. I cook -- but I don't call myself a cook. I repair things -- but I don't call myself a mechanic. I do however call myself a writer and photographer, partly because that's how I earn a living, and partly because both have been central to my life for over 40 years.
Sure, pursue art as a hobby if you like. But I took the OP to refer to people who care enough about their art, whatever it may be, to throw themselves into it wholeheartedly. From observation, as noted in my first post in this thread, I do in fact believe that most of them 'suffer' in one way for it, but also that the benefits they get from it are pretty remarkable too. On further thought I would also suggest that 'suffer' is substantially meaningless in this context, because they don't have a choice.
You may find "they don't have a choice" to be meaningless. Most artists I know will however understand.
Cheers,
R.
skibeerr
Well-known
This Antwerp painter is the real thing for me, not the wine sipping (if they have to pay themselves, quaffing if it's free) condecending bunch that dwells in the corridors of our Art school.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCeMgtoRago
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobs/list/q-art
Just as much as "bureaucrat", "detective", "singer" or "scientist" is NOT a job. But surely somebody who is a scientist, a detective or a bureaucrat works (and gets paid) as one.
Sheeeeez
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
As is with any language, one must know it in it in order to understand it. Same with personalities, crafts, and chosen paths. One may pretend to know if one can make out a thing or two, but understand?
Try making a dog understand the difference between fuchsia and burgundy.
Red Robin
It Is What It Is
Suffrages
Suffrages
Well that's my vote.
Suffrages
While I'm not sure its art, most would agree , my photos do make most viewers suffer, and I do include myself. Talent, maybe THAT's the answer! If it only cane in a can, I would surely need a case, OH, woe is me.
Well that's my vote.tlitody
Well-known
In my experience many artists (and designers and architects) are insufferable. They are incapable of understanding that others don't see things like they do. They are mostly self obsessed. It's no wonder that they they suffer but it's a self afflicted condition. Should we pity them or put them on a pedastal and worship them?
daninjc
Well-known
maybe we'd be better off just caring about the art and not the artists. So neither pity nor pedestals for the persons. Whereas it makes sense to criticize and judge ideas as strongly as one can (and so art works), it doesn't make much sense to judge people.
dave lackey
Mentor
I have tried to figure this thread and responses out but I can only ask, "What on earth are you folks talking about?"
Maybe the terms carelessly tossed about such as "art", "artist", "suffering" and such should be defined first. I doubt it can be done and that is what makes this thread so confusing. But that's just me. I'll go back to my little corner and continue suffering.
Maybe the terms carelessly tossed about such as "art", "artist", "suffering" and such should be defined first. I doubt it can be done and that is what makes this thread so confusing. But that's just me. I'll go back to my little corner and continue suffering.
dave lackey
Mentor
From an architectural background, I can honestly say that basically architects, designers and artists are nowhere close to the same thing. Architects self obsessed? Not any more than the pigeon-hole in which they work everyday. It has nothing to do with art but what the clients want and what is the trend for this year. Try to sell a present-day Kroger building in 1975 and you would see what I mean. It is all market-driven, not artistic at all.
There is a thread I started some time ago about my thoughts that all city planners should be artists. Well, include architects and designers in that as well. Basically the built-environment around us sucks and to think it was done on purpose, not by accident, speaks volumes.
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tlitody
Well-known
see what I mean
literiter
Well-known
We live in a hedonistic and free society. If it makes you happy to suffer you should just get out there and suffer!
dave lackey
Mentor
see what I mean
Maybe it's the stress fogging my mind, but I don't understand what is going on here. All I am trying to say is that architects and artists are nowhere the same. Architects are damned rigid and frustrated in what they do because they are basically paid for services like a street-walker. That is why I am not one.
Artists in my mind, are widely variable. But, there seems to be no agreement on who is an artist in this thread. So, where does one go from here? Me? I'm going to bed, I am too exhausted to think about such lofty questions.
daninjc
Well-known
uhmmm not sure what's going on in this thread either, but the stress level seems a little high
when I said artist I didn't really mean anything crazy - just someone doing some form of creative work that someone else can appreciate for its beauty or emotional power.
I still think we can have nice discussions without the need to define the meaning of every word before we even start - wouldn't that be a little impractical? We are doing conversations for fun, not deriving theorems from axioms.
Btw, I know architects that are neither rigid nor frustrated - not a tiny bit.
when I said artist I didn't really mean anything crazy - just someone doing some form of creative work that someone else can appreciate for its beauty or emotional power.
I still think we can have nice discussions without the need to define the meaning of every word before we even start - wouldn't that be a little impractical? We are doing conversations for fun, not deriving theorems from axioms.
Btw, I know architects that are neither rigid nor frustrated - not a tiny bit.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Dave, ever done any graphic design, commercial photography, or portrait and wedding photography? Same thing. Especially with portrait and wedding work, everyone wants the same crap their friends/family/etc. got.
dave lackey
Mentor
Ha, ha...yes, Chris, I have done weddings. I know what you mean. Nowadays, I just do what I want which is producing photo essays in book form.
You just reminded me that I was going to PM you with some questions NOT related to this thread. Will try to get on that today. Thanks for the reminder, I need them these days.