jimbobuk
Established
Hi guys.
Well i just won an auction for the RF645 so will hopefully get it come the middle of the week. Excited and dissapointed at my lack of restraint, i really need to chill out on purchases now for a good while.
I wasn't sure where to ask stuff so thought i'd put it in the relevant forum for the camera. This will be my first MF camera, so I was wondering if there are any good places to get the lowdown on working with this format.
I'm not sure yet if i'm going to get the manual with this camera.. I hope so, the seller has gone offline or to bed at the moment so I'm not sure. If i dont get the manual would someone be able to scan theirs in for me?
As to my questions about MF
i) I'm guessing that the DOF is going to be narrower compared with the same lenses at 35mm, in the same way digital compact cameras with their smaller sensors get HUGE DOF. Is there any rough equivelant to what the the f4 lens will be like in size of DOF at the same average focus distance compared to an fx 35mm lens.. is it like f2.8 or something else?
ii) What is the focal length to use when making calculations of how fast the shutter speed has to be to get a reasonably steady handheld shot. In 35mm and all my digital work I use the 35mm equivelant focal length, to get a rough minimum of what the 1/x shutter speed has to be. Is this the same with MF, or do you just use the MFs focal length as it is? I'm not sure on what principle this rule tends to work, I have the basic photography book around here somewhere, i'll try and find out myself.
iii) How often are RF645 users shooting handheld, or on a tripod? Do you give a generous leeway on the rule from ii) to make the shutter speed that much faster to ensure your negatives have nice sharpness throughout.
iv) similar to my question in the darkroom forum on getting b&w film developed in the UK, I'll need a place to develop my 120 film until i get my home developing working in any form. I'll probably ask this again in another thread, but incase a UK reader gets this your advice would be appreciated. Probably go for peak imaging first if i can't find anywhere local to Nottingham who would deal with them.
v) do people mostly shoot 120 or 220 film.. I've found it hard to find 220 film online in the UK for cheap prices, but i like the idea of standard film number of shots.
vi) I'm a little unclear on how the film loading and unloading process is going to work.. it'll be a new entitiy when i use it for the first time.. I understand it doesn't come in cartridges like 35mm but how does the film get light protection on loading and unloading if its not in a light tight container?
Thats about it for now i guess.. thanks for your help.. please someone come up with the GAS innoculation before I end up on the streets surrounded by cameras
Cheers
Well i just won an auction for the RF645 so will hopefully get it come the middle of the week. Excited and dissapointed at my lack of restraint, i really need to chill out on purchases now for a good while.
I wasn't sure where to ask stuff so thought i'd put it in the relevant forum for the camera. This will be my first MF camera, so I was wondering if there are any good places to get the lowdown on working with this format.
I'm not sure yet if i'm going to get the manual with this camera.. I hope so, the seller has gone offline or to bed at the moment so I'm not sure. If i dont get the manual would someone be able to scan theirs in for me?
As to my questions about MF
i) I'm guessing that the DOF is going to be narrower compared with the same lenses at 35mm, in the same way digital compact cameras with their smaller sensors get HUGE DOF. Is there any rough equivelant to what the the f4 lens will be like in size of DOF at the same average focus distance compared to an fx 35mm lens.. is it like f2.8 or something else?
ii) What is the focal length to use when making calculations of how fast the shutter speed has to be to get a reasonably steady handheld shot. In 35mm and all my digital work I use the 35mm equivelant focal length, to get a rough minimum of what the 1/x shutter speed has to be. Is this the same with MF, or do you just use the MFs focal length as it is? I'm not sure on what principle this rule tends to work, I have the basic photography book around here somewhere, i'll try and find out myself.
iii) How often are RF645 users shooting handheld, or on a tripod? Do you give a generous leeway on the rule from ii) to make the shutter speed that much faster to ensure your negatives have nice sharpness throughout.
iv) similar to my question in the darkroom forum on getting b&w film developed in the UK, I'll need a place to develop my 120 film until i get my home developing working in any form. I'll probably ask this again in another thread, but incase a UK reader gets this your advice would be appreciated. Probably go for peak imaging first if i can't find anywhere local to Nottingham who would deal with them.
v) do people mostly shoot 120 or 220 film.. I've found it hard to find 220 film online in the UK for cheap prices, but i like the idea of standard film number of shots.
vi) I'm a little unclear on how the film loading and unloading process is going to work.. it'll be a new entitiy when i use it for the first time.. I understand it doesn't come in cartridges like 35mm but how does the film get light protection on loading and unloading if its not in a light tight container?
Thats about it for now i guess.. thanks for your help.. please someone come up with the GAS innoculation before I end up on the streets surrounded by cameras
Cheers
sf
Mentor
f/stopblues
photo loner
As far as the DOF in medium format is concerned, you're correct that its narrower given two lenses of equal perspectives (ie. 50mm normal in 35 compared to 80mm normal in 6x6). For that example, think of the DOF an 80mm lens would give on a 35mm camera. That's approx. what you'll get from an 80mm on a 6x6. I'm just using 6x6 cause that's what I'm familiar with.. not sure what normal is considered for 6x4.5. Clear as mud?
Have fun with your new camera! You'll be floored when you start making prints and compare them to your 35mm prints.
Have fun with your new camera! You'll be floored when you start making prints and compare them to your 35mm prints.
eric mac
Established
Good Luck with the new camera. I have a Mamiya M6 for my basis of comparison. Enlargements show no strain as far as grain is concerned. Any picture will improve with a tripod as well as the fact there is no mirror vibration. If you get a chance, shoot a roll of slides. There is nothing like 120 slides on a light table to really blow you away.
Eric
Eric
sf
Mentor
jimbobuk said:Hi guys.
Well i just won an auction for the RF645 so will hopefully get it come the middle of the week. Excited and dissapointed at my lack of restraint, i really need to chill out on purchases now for a good while.
I wasn't sure where to ask stuff so thought i'd put it in the relevant forum for the camera. This will be my first MF camera, so I was wondering if there are any good places to get the lowdown on working with this format.
I'm not sure yet if i'm going to get the manual with this camera.. I hope so, the seller has gone offline or to bed at the moment so I'm not sure. If i dont get the manual would someone be able to scan theirs in for me?
As to my questions about MF
i) I'm guessing that the DOF is going to be narrower compared with the same lenses at 35mm, in the same way digital compact cameras with their smaller sensors get HUGE DOF. Is there any rough equivelant to what the the f4 lens will be like in size of DOF at the same average focus distance compared to an fx 35mm lens.. is it like f2.8 or something else?
ii) What is the focal length to use when making calculations of how fast the shutter speed has to be to get a reasonably steady handheld shot. In 35mm and all my digital work I use the 35mm equivelant focal length, to get a rough minimum of what the 1/x shutter speed has to be. Is this the same with MF, or do you just use the MFs focal length as it is? I'm not sure on what principle this rule tends to work, I have the basic photography book around here somewhere, i'll try and find out myself.
iii) How often are RF645 users shooting handheld, or on a tripod? Do you give a generous leeway on the rule from ii) to make the shutter speed that much faster to ensure your negatives have nice sharpness throughout.
iv) similar to my question in the darkroom forum on getting b&w film developed in the UK, I'll need a place to develop my 120 film until i get my home developing working in any form. I'll probably ask this again in another thread, but incase a UK reader gets this your advice would be appreciated. Probably go for peak imaging first if i can't find anywhere local to Nottingham who would deal with them.
v) do people mostly shoot 120 or 220 film.. I've found it hard to find 220 film online in the UK for cheap prices, but i like the idea of standard film number of shots.
vi) I'm a little unclear on how the film loading and unloading process is going to work.. it'll be a new entitiy when i use it for the first time.. I understand it doesn't come in cartridges like 35mm but how does the film get light protection on loading and unloading if its not in a light tight container?
Thats about it for now i guess.. thanks for your help.. please someone come up with the GAS innoculation before I end up on the streets surrounded by cameras
Cheers
i. DOF is certainly shallow in comparison with 35mm corresponding DOF numbers. F4 on the RF645 is close to F2.8 in 35mm.
ii. To guess the lowest handheld shutterspeed, you just need to produce a shot that shows any hand motion. Using a very wide angle lens makes it easier to get clear shots at low speeds since details are less important, and with a long lens, shake becomes a real issue. Especially with slower shutterspeeds. The kit comes with a 65mm, no reason why that would not be just fine for testing your steadiness. It is more about how steady your hands are, and how motionless the camera remains as you press the shutter than it is about focal length. Shorter lenses are just easier to steady.
iii. This question doesn't really make sense. . . .I use a tripod when I want to shoot at shutterspeeds below 1/30th. Or if critical sharpness is necessary. I use a tripod for maybe 10% of my shots. Maybe even less than that. I only used one a handful of times out of 400 frames shot on my last trip. If you're shooting street stuff, forget the tripod and choose a faster film to keep shutterspeeds above 1/30th at f8. That is my personal rule.
iv. I find it easier to get things done at home than at a lab. The results I have gotten from my first two rolls at home have been better than those I have gotten at the local pro lab. And at less than 1/20th the cost.
v. I always shoot 120 - mostly because the camera seems to prefer that. 220 rubs a little. 120 also allows you to finish rolls more often - less time keeping rolls in the camera untouched and unprocessed. 120 also allows you to move between b&w and color more quickly. Today, I went to the tulip fields with IR and B&W film. Wish I had taken some velvia.
vi. film comes in paper or foil wrapping - except some pricey films that come in containers. I think Rollei R3 comes in a container. But no matter because it is as safe to load 120 as it is 35mm. Just unwrap it, cut the little tape piece that keeps it wound, hook it into the camera and wind it onto the spindle. You'll see that this only takes once to learn and is just as fast as 35mm.
Michiel Fokkema
Michiel Fokkema
clarence
ダメ
Regarding containers for 120/220 film, I prefer to keep my film inside black plastic containers after they've been exposed, just in case I didn't wrap them tight enough around the spindle., and also to prevent them from either unravelling or being damaged by hard edges. These containers can be bought but you can easily make some for yourself!
Things you'll need:
Strong Scissors or a knife
Duct Tape
Ilford 35mm film container
Any other brand's black 35mm film container
1. Cut off the bottom of the generic brand's black film container.
2. Shove it into the Ilford container, with the cut side facing the inside.
3. Tape them together (I do it both inside and outside)
And there you go, a DIY film container for your 120 film.
Clarence
Things you'll need:
Strong Scissors or a knife
Duct Tape
Ilford 35mm film container
Any other brand's black 35mm film container
1. Cut off the bottom of the generic brand's black film container.
2. Shove it into the Ilford container, with the cut side facing the inside.
3. Tape them together (I do it both inside and outside)
And there you go, a DIY film container for your 120 film.
Clarence
Talisker
Neil
Re: tripod use, probably no more (or less) than any other camera - when it is getting dark or I need a very small aperture for extreme DoF. Remember that there is no mirror bounce or focal plane shutter to shake the camera, which helps compensate for the larger image size. [When you hear the shutter 'gasp' - there is no other word for it - the picture is already taken as the noise is the shutter recocking]. Remember that the whole point of medium format rangefinders is portability, which is somewhat negated if you always need a tripod...
I've not had any problem with Peak Imaging for developing slide film - very fast turnround. I've been less impressed with the scanning, which has sometimes shown uneven lighting and colour across the image, when the original slide has been even. I havn't tried their high resolution scanning service yet. If anyone can recommend somewhere else...
I've not had any problem with Peak Imaging for developing slide film - very fast turnround. I've been less impressed with the scanning, which has sometimes shown uneven lighting and colour across the image, when the original slide has been even. I havn't tried their high resolution scanning service yet. If anyone can recommend somewhere else...
jimbobuk
Established
Thanks for all the info guys, really helpful.
Turns out it should come with its manual, but it'd be nice to read it before it arrives, Michiel Fokkema I can't get your website to work at the moment?
My question about tripod use was just a general one really.. i think tiredness and late night reading conspired to make me somehow believe that most of the shots shutterflower had taken on your "I have the RF645" thread, and review were on a tripod.
The general tripod and slowest shutter speed question came about from wondering if the higher resolution sensor proved to be more demanding with regards to camera shake relative to a 35mm setup. Agreed that wider definitely helps. I've grown used to knowing what lens i'm using, say a 50mm prime.. and hence what shutter speed i should be looking for to be steady and sharp. At least 1/50 preferrably a little more perhaps. My question was with the 65mm stanadard lens do i do the logic to require something like 1/65, or do i operate on the 35mm equivelant of 40mm, meaning a shutter speed of at least 1/40 is more like it.
Its just when I'm using my digital SLR or R-D1 I always work in the equivelant 35mm focal length, wanting a slightly faster shutter speed for each lens than if i was using it on a 35mm film camera. I wondered if with MF it worked the other way round, meaning that 1/40th is a more suitable low end, that 1/65.
Of course actually technique and steady hands contribute greatly, and on that front I think I'm average to poor at being able to handheld down well past the recommended minimum's described above without some blurring. On 35mm small pictures its not too bad, zoomed in its pretty bad. I'm guessing MF will be more critical zoomed in, but could it possibly be more forgiving for a similar small print made from 35mm as for small prints MF will be more zoomed out as it were.
Its all new to me, sorry for being stupid
I will plan to do my own development at some point and i look forward to trying with MF.. will help bring the costs in line.. from the descriptions here MF sounds like it could be easier to unroll and put in a developing tank than 35mm which need their cartridges popping open before you can start.
clarence, the film containers seem to make sense to me as an added protection.
Cheers everyone.
Turns out it should come with its manual, but it'd be nice to read it before it arrives, Michiel Fokkema I can't get your website to work at the moment?
My question about tripod use was just a general one really.. i think tiredness and late night reading conspired to make me somehow believe that most of the shots shutterflower had taken on your "I have the RF645" thread, and review were on a tripod.
The general tripod and slowest shutter speed question came about from wondering if the higher resolution sensor proved to be more demanding with regards to camera shake relative to a 35mm setup. Agreed that wider definitely helps. I've grown used to knowing what lens i'm using, say a 50mm prime.. and hence what shutter speed i should be looking for to be steady and sharp. At least 1/50 preferrably a little more perhaps. My question was with the 65mm stanadard lens do i do the logic to require something like 1/65, or do i operate on the 35mm equivelant of 40mm, meaning a shutter speed of at least 1/40 is more like it.
Its just when I'm using my digital SLR or R-D1 I always work in the equivelant 35mm focal length, wanting a slightly faster shutter speed for each lens than if i was using it on a 35mm film camera. I wondered if with MF it worked the other way round, meaning that 1/40th is a more suitable low end, that 1/65.
Of course actually technique and steady hands contribute greatly, and on that front I think I'm average to poor at being able to handheld down well past the recommended minimum's described above without some blurring. On 35mm small pictures its not too bad, zoomed in its pretty bad. I'm guessing MF will be more critical zoomed in, but could it possibly be more forgiving for a similar small print made from 35mm as for small prints MF will be more zoomed out as it were.
Its all new to me, sorry for being stupid
I will plan to do my own development at some point and i look forward to trying with MF.. will help bring the costs in line.. from the descriptions here MF sounds like it could be easier to unroll and put in a developing tank than 35mm which need their cartridges popping open before you can start.
clarence, the film containers seem to make sense to me as an added protection.
Cheers everyone.
clarence
ダメ
jimbobuk said:The general tripod and slowest shutter speed question came about from wondering if the higher resolution sensor proved to be more demanding with regards to camera shake relative to a 35mm setup. Agreed that wider definitely helps. I've grown used to knowing what lens i'm using, say a 50mm prime.. and hence what shutter speed i should be looking for to be steady and sharp. At least 1/50 preferrably a little more perhaps. My question was with the 65mm stanadard lens do i do the logic to require something like 1/65, or do i operate on the 35mm equivelant of 40mm, meaning a shutter speed of at least 1/40 is more like it.
Its just when I'm using my digital SLR or R-D1 I always work in the equivelant 35mm focal length, wanting a slightly faster shutter speed for each lens than if i was using it on a 35mm film camera. I wondered if with MF it worked the other way round, meaning that 1/40th is a more suitable low end, that 1/65.
Of course actually technique and steady hands contribute greatly, and on that front I think I'm average to poor at being able to handheld down well past the recommended minimum's described above without some blurring. On 35mm small pictures its not too bad, zoomed in its pretty bad. I'm guessing MF will be more critical zoomed in, but could it possibly be more forgiving for a similar small print made from 35mm as for small prints MF will be more zoomed out as it were.
Its all new to me, sorry for being stupid
I will plan to do my own development at some point and i look forward to trying with MF.. will help bring the costs in line.. from the descriptions here MF sounds like it could be easier to unroll and put in a developing tank than 35mm which need their cartridges popping open before you can start.
clarence, the film containers seem to make sense to me as an added protection.
If I'm not wrong, the lowest hand-held speed you can achieve is for most people, in most conditions, the reciprocal of the focal length. Although 80mm in MF reproduces the 40-50mm perspective in 35mm format, the increased distance means that small movements will have a larger effect, ceteris paribus.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, so I can go out and shoot lower speeds with my MF equipment!
As for development, MF is so much easier. The huge film is easy to guide onto the rails of the reel, and the shorter overall length means less opportunities to kink and jam the reel.
By the way, I never pop my 35mm cartridges. I leave the film leader out when rewinding so that I can start loading the reels in daylight, and I also get to reuse the cartridge.
Have fun with MF!
Clarence