bonatto
looking out
An interesting, though not un-expected thing happened to me just now. As I'm working on a project with train/tube commuters as its focus, sometimes I spend more than usual time hanging around places these places that fascinate me. More often than not, they happen to be busy London transport hubs.
As I was waiting for the next wave of commuters rush out of the central line into the train platforms at Liverpool street station, I took a generic photo of the ticket gates. To do this I was sitting opposite the gates on a comfortable metal box.
Soon enough Mrs. Officer came show me her shiny badge. An off-duty blonde, in her mid 40's in top shape. She kindly explained to me why she was detaining me. Soon enough, greater anglia staff/supervisors got involved asserting their authority over me, snapping how I needed to ask them permission to photograph, and that I can't photograph people.
They were soon sent off by the blonde to fetch eager community officers who soon enough were inches from my face telling me to take my hands out of my pockets and looking confused as why someone would be taking pictures for the pure enjoyment of it.
From there I was escorted to their holding room where my reasons and purposes were questioned, my name checked, and my bag searched. After scrolling through the dismissible photos I managed to take today, they were satisfied that I was neither:
A. a pedophile
B. a voyeur
C. a terrorist
Eventually the tension turned and one of the officers was actually interested in what I did, why I did it, played with my camera a bit, shook my hand, and said goodbyes.
Anyways, after seeing a video of an imbecil italian art student who stood her ground against officers who wanted to know why she was filming security cameras around buildings in London, I decided that if it ever happened to me I'd approach it differently (she was eventually arrested an processed).
See, the thing is, I think some photographers/artists/videographers, whatever, have such sense of self importance that when placed in these situations, they seem to get a kick out of question authority in a way that ends up being highly detrimental to our community as a whole.
After getting home I had the pleasant surprise of finding Mrs. Officer dead smack center of my ticket-gate shot. It's really nothing special, but it's going on my wall. Nice and big.
In the end it's just much easier to satisfy their sense of duty, and facilitate their job. For all they know, I could indeed have been someone scoping out a spot for something evil. Maybe I was just a stupid tourist. Or maybe, as I explained to them, just somebody that enjoys documenting life, ordinary life, like theirs and mine. That I take pride in what I do even though nobody pays me to do it, and that I will keep doing it, regardless of the ugly faces or the authorities aroused.
I'm a photographer, and nobody can take that away from me.
As I was waiting for the next wave of commuters rush out of the central line into the train platforms at Liverpool street station, I took a generic photo of the ticket gates. To do this I was sitting opposite the gates on a comfortable metal box.
Soon enough Mrs. Officer came show me her shiny badge. An off-duty blonde, in her mid 40's in top shape. She kindly explained to me why she was detaining me. Soon enough, greater anglia staff/supervisors got involved asserting their authority over me, snapping how I needed to ask them permission to photograph, and that I can't photograph people.
They were soon sent off by the blonde to fetch eager community officers who soon enough were inches from my face telling me to take my hands out of my pockets and looking confused as why someone would be taking pictures for the pure enjoyment of it.
From there I was escorted to their holding room where my reasons and purposes were questioned, my name checked, and my bag searched. After scrolling through the dismissible photos I managed to take today, they were satisfied that I was neither:
A. a pedophile
B. a voyeur
C. a terrorist
Eventually the tension turned and one of the officers was actually interested in what I did, why I did it, played with my camera a bit, shook my hand, and said goodbyes.
Anyways, after seeing a video of an imbecil italian art student who stood her ground against officers who wanted to know why she was filming security cameras around buildings in London, I decided that if it ever happened to me I'd approach it differently (she was eventually arrested an processed).
See, the thing is, I think some photographers/artists/videographers, whatever, have such sense of self importance that when placed in these situations, they seem to get a kick out of question authority in a way that ends up being highly detrimental to our community as a whole.
After getting home I had the pleasant surprise of finding Mrs. Officer dead smack center of my ticket-gate shot. It's really nothing special, but it's going on my wall. Nice and big.
In the end it's just much easier to satisfy their sense of duty, and facilitate their job. For all they know, I could indeed have been someone scoping out a spot for something evil. Maybe I was just a stupid tourist. Or maybe, as I explained to them, just somebody that enjoys documenting life, ordinary life, like theirs and mine. That I take pride in what I do even though nobody pays me to do it, and that I will keep doing it, regardless of the ugly faces or the authorities aroused.
I'm a photographer, and nobody can take that away from me.
Snacks
Established
Well played sir.
kdemas
Enjoy Life.
I'm glad cooler heads prevailed and things turned out OK for you. Certainly not a pleasant experience though.
daveleo
what?
I agree. What do they say . . . "stoop to conquer" ? . . . is that it ?
kshapero
South Florida Man
Always good to use honey not salt with the gendarmes.
boomguy57
Well-known
Amen. Some people take themselves way too seriously.
segedi
RFicianado
I really like this shot, and it is special. Moreso to you but all the same, I love her suspicious gaze, the No Entry sign and the "they do... why don't you?" Keep it up!
zauhar
Mentor
Excellent shot sir, and with Madam Officer giving you the evil eye! I have no doubt you will treasure that image.
I was approached at St Pancras Station last Summer (for the offense of taking a photo of a train), in my case a station agent of some sort in plain clothes. My experience was better than yours, when he discovered I was an American tourist his attitude changed immediately.
I can understand that it was for the best in this instance to smooth things over, but I would not call the art student an imbecile for standing up to the authorities. It takes courage to put yourself on the line, especially now. We are not at the point where challenging the authorities gets you disappeared, although we move closer each day.
In light of the danger to take action in isolation, perhaps we need to take a lesson from the Quebecois - if the authorities don't like pictures, then how about a flash mob of photographers to descend on the station at the same time (a hundred or so should do the trick).
Randy
I was approached at St Pancras Station last Summer (for the offense of taking a photo of a train), in my case a station agent of some sort in plain clothes. My experience was better than yours, when he discovered I was an American tourist his attitude changed immediately.
I can understand that it was for the best in this instance to smooth things over, but I would not call the art student an imbecile for standing up to the authorities. It takes courage to put yourself on the line, especially now. We are not at the point where challenging the authorities gets you disappeared, although we move closer each day.
In light of the danger to take action in isolation, perhaps we need to take a lesson from the Quebecois - if the authorities don't like pictures, then how about a flash mob of photographers to descend on the station at the same time (a hundred or so should do the trick).
Randy
steveclem
Well-known
Where did these people get the authority to demand you take your hands out of your pockets? It smacks of irony that one of if not the most surveillance camera infested countries in the world takes suspicion at a person taking pictures, even more so in the age of camera phones.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Great shot, well handled, it defused the situation.
IIRC it was fellow RFF-er Dave Lackey who in a thread wrote that he always carries his ID on a key lanyard in plain sight when shooting in situations that could arouse suspicion, just to take that suspicion away: when people see you are wearing your ID in plain sight (like a press card, almost), they assume you have a) no harmful intentions b) permission.
I've taken that approach up myself in the past year and it has so far proven itself beneficial time after time again.
EDIT: I instantly take my hands out of my pockets anyway, I carry a pocket knife and do not want authorities to have an excuse later if things take a turn for the worst and they ask me to empty my pockets...
IIRC it was fellow RFF-er Dave Lackey who in a thread wrote that he always carries his ID on a key lanyard in plain sight when shooting in situations that could arouse suspicion, just to take that suspicion away: when people see you are wearing your ID in plain sight (like a press card, almost), they assume you have a) no harmful intentions b) permission.
I've taken that approach up myself in the past year and it has so far proven itself beneficial time after time again.
EDIT: I instantly take my hands out of my pockets anyway, I carry a pocket knife and do not want authorities to have an excuse later if things take a turn for the worst and they ask me to empty my pockets...
MartinP
Mentor
In Holland one must carry the national ID card at all times but, being British, I don't have one and have to lug my passport everywhere. In the UK, where the OP is located, there is no ID card to carry - visible or not.
denizg7
-
I think we should all be glad the officers are doing their job....
Having said that , why would you continue shooting after you've been warned?
Having said that , why would you continue shooting after you've been warned?
Dralowid
Michael
As someone questioned while carrying a 560 mm Telyt , I too have learnt a similar lesson...and I congratulate the guys in their impossible task of trying to keep this place safe.
I'm not sure what our current 'alert level' is right now, thought it had been downgraded.
I'm not sure what our current 'alert level' is right now, thought it had been downgraded.
zauhar
Mentor
uhm, to defend your constitutional rights?
Not sure what those are in Britain, but in pre-gitmo America, taking photographs was among them.
Randy
bonatto
looking out
Thanks for your comment Randy. Just FYI I am from New Hampshire, expat here in London, and handed them my NH ID without being asked.
The issue I had with her particular case is not the standing up to authority, it's the "standing up because I can, being cheeky, testing the officers just for the fun of it". There's a fine line I think. She simply tested the officer who was polite and was enquiring about her motives. Guidelines were put in place to allow them to ask her what she's doing, given the high profile of the location, just as I was at Liverpool street. Unfortunately due to circumstances much greater than what I or we have control over, our world has changed, and these suspicions will be inherent as long as there are those looking to harm us.
Here's her interview, in which I think she is making herself needlessly victimized. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/dec/15/police-terrorism
I agree with you that it takes courage to put yourself on the line, and when the officer told me that I would not be able to take photos after I was questioned and I would be told to leave the station, I kindly replied that I would not. I also asserted my right to be where I was and to do what I was doing, and was very clear that I would continue to do it, regardless of his assessment. In this I stood my ground, and his reaction was interesting, he told me I was correct, but that some people may object to having their photo taken.
In all, I was very clear why I was doing it, and why I would keep doing it, and this in itself was enough to end the situation amicably. Had I taken a harder stance, maybe I would have had some further frustration.
BlackXList
Well-known
Whilst I can appreciate that the smoother approach here stopped things escalating, and made them more palatable to you, there are still a number of serious issues here.
Security guards do not have stop and search powers or the right to seize your equipment under any circumstances.
Police have powers to review your images only under very specific circumstances or with a court order, this has tightened up more since the removal of Section 44, and if you can claim "journalistic" material (I'm sure the overlap between street photography and photojournalism is a grey area), then you are protected from having to share any unpublished material with Police or security under PACE (1984), and of course all images are your property under copyright law as soon as they're taken.
A Community Support Officer cannot perform a stop and search without a full Police Officer present.
Unless there is sufficient suspicion of an offence, you don't have to give your details (although withholding them does tend to escalate the issue)
I'm sure there are other issues which I have missed here, but my point is pretty clear.
edit: just to clarify the statements about PCSOs/Police/Security were all included as I wasn't 100% clear on which ones were involved
Security guards do not have stop and search powers or the right to seize your equipment under any circumstances.
Police have powers to review your images only under very specific circumstances or with a court order, this has tightened up more since the removal of Section 44, and if you can claim "journalistic" material (I'm sure the overlap between street photography and photojournalism is a grey area), then you are protected from having to share any unpublished material with Police or security under PACE (1984), and of course all images are your property under copyright law as soon as they're taken.
A Community Support Officer cannot perform a stop and search without a full Police Officer present.
Unless there is sufficient suspicion of an offence, you don't have to give your details (although withholding them does tend to escalate the issue)
I'm sure there are other issues which I have missed here, but my point is pretty clear.
edit: just to clarify the statements about PCSOs/Police/Security were all included as I wasn't 100% clear on which ones were involved
Last edited:
bonatto
looking out
Here's the thing, I wasn't warned, and there's no reason to warn me. Had I been shooting a flash into an oncoming train, blinding the driver....fine. I was doing nothing wrong, they later saw this, and I made it clear.
However, given the circumstances, today officers have the power to stop and question, when "suspicious". Suspicious being, random dude, standing in front of ticket gates, taking pictures with an all black camera, donned in all black clothing.....I can see their concern, and their argument was, this is not a place where tourists take photographs.
I said, I'm not a tourist. It all depends of the circumstance, and there is clearly a psychological dimension to all of it. End of the day, I wanted to go home.
Snapper_uk
Well-known
You do actually require a permit to photograph within a London station or on the Underground, so don't get surprised if you get pulled up.
I was politely asked once to stop taking photos at Liverpool Street Station - however that was pre-September 11th 2001, so things have changed a bit since then...
I was politely asked once to stop taking photos at Liverpool Street Station - however that was pre-September 11th 2001, so things have changed a bit since then...
bonatto
looking out
Good to know, should this occur again I will request the presence of a police officer.
However, I was stopped by a police officer who ordered their involvement, not sure of the legalities.
denizg7
-
Randy im sure you have heard of the TSA and what a awful job they've done..
its better to see them actually take precautions to have a chance of stop great danger from happening then to see a pointless photograph of subway gates..
my two cents..
Last edited: