Frankie
Speaking Frankly
CLE-RF, digitalintrigue, rxmd, reklats, animal, djonesii, gandalfk7, Jim-st, RFH, Gary_E, MikeL, 40oz…and especially Brian Sweeney, [and, apologies to those I neglected to acknowledge],
My joining of RFF was because I had purchased a Zeiss Ikon mated with only a CV 40/1.4, a slim and light-weight camera for my pending early-retirement around-the-world dream trip. [The reasons why I had dismissed the Leica M7 would have, in retrospect, ignited a firestorm of debates.]
The R-D1 first proved a digital RF, despite naysayers in abundance, was indeed doable. My laptop appliance could now become also my portable dark room…I travel with one anyway. Photofinishing on-demand, electronic image sharing, no airport X-ray worries…plus on-line next-stop hotel bookings…are all good uses.
I don’t see much future for film [another debate raging elsewhere]; nor do I need auto-everything or even an LCD… And so I mused in various digital Ikon threads, and was immediately chided by lurking experts. [Apparently Zeiss or Cosina were deemed unable or unwilling, with judgements rendered in “Business v. Labor-of-love”.]
Then I stumbled onto this thread [because the font showed DIY as div, and maybe that was why my blasphemy escaped notice] and posted early. RFH’s DIY idea was intriguing because I had done just that professionally, targeted Leica [Heerbrugg] no less. Everyone in my industry thought we were crazy then…
After buying an M2 for refreshing my Leica memory [never bothered to use it, I prefer my Ikon]; next was an R-D1…and started building the “package” in my head, a somewhat Zen method that had served me well and cost nothing.
From experiences in building serious digital scanner cameras from the bread-board up, also enthusiasm from my old gang, I started sharing thoughts in this thread.
I have learned there is a desire even if B/W-only; and had private offers of financial contribution. No doubt such parties would have been tarred with the same “fantasy, impractical, stupid…” brush that was used on me…condemn the person, condemn the idea.
Bottom line: DIY is not for everyone, a [non-Leica] kit might. Legacy Leica belongs in collectors’ showcases anyway. My postings were not about a comprehensive, solve all problems, beat everything-Leica attempt…I had no such desire. It is just an interesting early-retirement project to keep me sharp…and making money having fun is honourable.
I had no problem with critics, especially those with sound technical counterpoints; or sceptics [I had faced worse]. This is not a Board Room…business arguments belong there, later.
To be condemned on exploring ideas, as if thoughts [that might lead to actions] would desecrate the dead Leica bodies or disrupt worshipping of the new digital Leica gods…that is thought policing [before the crime] a la George Orwell’s 1984.
My original wish was only a digital Ikon. If an Ikon-digital is even hinted at Photokina 2010, I would simply buy one. Meanwhile, tinkering continues…and my last post.
*****
The R-D1 first proved a digital RF, despite naysayers in abundance, was indeed doable. My laptop appliance could now become also my portable dark room…I travel with one anyway. Photofinishing on-demand, electronic image sharing, no airport X-ray worries…plus on-line next-stop hotel bookings…are all good uses.
I don’t see much future for film [another debate raging elsewhere]; nor do I need auto-everything or even an LCD… And so I mused in various digital Ikon threads, and was immediately chided by lurking experts. [Apparently Zeiss or Cosina were deemed unable or unwilling, with judgements rendered in “Business v. Labor-of-love”.]
Then I stumbled onto this thread [because the font showed DIY as div, and maybe that was why my blasphemy escaped notice] and posted early. RFH’s DIY idea was intriguing because I had done just that professionally, targeted Leica [Heerbrugg] no less. Everyone in my industry thought we were crazy then…
After buying an M2 for refreshing my Leica memory [never bothered to use it, I prefer my Ikon]; next was an R-D1…and started building the “package” in my head, a somewhat Zen method that had served me well and cost nothing.
From experiences in building serious digital scanner cameras from the bread-board up, also enthusiasm from my old gang, I started sharing thoughts in this thread.
I have learned there is a desire even if B/W-only; and had private offers of financial contribution. No doubt such parties would have been tarred with the same “fantasy, impractical, stupid…” brush that was used on me…condemn the person, condemn the idea.
Bottom line: DIY is not for everyone, a [non-Leica] kit might. Legacy Leica belongs in collectors’ showcases anyway. My postings were not about a comprehensive, solve all problems, beat everything-Leica attempt…I had no such desire. It is just an interesting early-retirement project to keep me sharp…and making money having fun is honourable.
I had no problem with critics, especially those with sound technical counterpoints; or sceptics [I had faced worse]. This is not a Board Room…business arguments belong there, later.
To be condemned on exploring ideas, as if thoughts [that might lead to actions] would desecrate the dead Leica bodies or disrupt worshipping of the new digital Leica gods…that is thought policing [before the crime] a la George Orwell’s 1984.
My original wish was only a digital Ikon. If an Ikon-digital is even hinted at Photokina 2010, I would simply buy one. Meanwhile, tinkering continues…and my last post.
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Another one?
Cheers,
R.
I've had at least three "last Posts" on RFF before. And deleted thousands of posts and many threads.
Then, someone made an argument that was convincing.
And of late, I really don't give much of a damn about what other people think of me. I'm usually correct in what I state. Agreeing or disagreeing with what I have to state is irrelevant.
I hate to lose another Engineer from RFF.
Then, someone made an argument that was convincing.
And of late, I really don't give much of a damn about what other people think of me. I'm usually correct in what I state. Agreeing or disagreeing with what I have to state is irrelevant.
I hate to lose another Engineer from RFF.
RFH
rfhansen.wordpress.com
I have been doing the same as Frankie: Thinking it over and making mental models. I've also been making a few measurements. The FED2 has a larger back door than the Kiev4, so that might be the best candidate for the experiment. And it seems that the essential innards of a small-ish DSLR could fit in there somehow. As the FED cameras are cheap, I wouldn't mind doing a permanent modification on it if needed. Not so with my M6.
Unfortunately, I missed the purchase of a 50£ EOS 300D that would have made the perfect take-apart-camera. I'm still waiting for extra pocket cash and the right offer of cheap spares to toy with.
Keep up the good spirit.
Unfortunately, I missed the purchase of a 50£ EOS 300D that would have made the perfect take-apart-camera. I'm still waiting for extra pocket cash and the right offer of cheap spares to toy with.
Keep up the good spirit.
Mark D.
Member
I like what is going on this thread. I don't have much to offer other than some support. I'm all for DIY projects (building a DIY electronic light meter at the moment) and am looking forward to seeing what you guys can produce.
Frankie
Speaking Frankly
Frankie
Speaking Frankly
After much thought, it occurred to me that if a FF CCD encased even with a 1mm thick rim [22 x 34mm net CCD size] would work fine (~95% coverage). The M framelines are only ~85% accurate anyway.
One CCD vendor contacted would/could package their chip that way upon a "large enough" order.
Such an encased CCD could be mounted in a way to fit through the shutter opening [net available depth 2mm, enough even for filter layers and cover glass], with the image plane aligned with the film guide rail top surface. The rest of the pins and frame materials are behind that plane and would not matter. No surgery needed.
A crop factor equivalent of 1.06 could not hurt much. I don't care if a 50mm lens is now really 53mm or a 35mm is really a 37mm. Most M-users could never compose to the true FF anyway.
The 45 x 90 x 7mm space now occupied by the back door could indeed be used to fit most of the simple Frame Grabber, Buffer and Write-to-SD electronics. If need be, place some of the components in a multi-layer board in the space now occupied by the removable take-up spool. Some more work needs to be done.
Many lithium-ion 1600 mAH battery fitting in the film cartridge space are available.
It also occurred to me that if a 24 M-pixel 16-bit B/W raw-only conversion is made, a 2Gb SD card would only hold about 40 shots. The existing camera frame counter is therefore perfectly usable...especially the M2. If I must use HC/SD, I can keep track mentally...or use only 2Gb SD, <$10 each. So change SD as frequently as you would using film.
Upon discussing with a few old-timer friends, we all agreed that if someone handed you an M2/3/4 camera pre-loaded with Tri-X, you would simply shoot away...using a hand-held meter or not. You could not and would not care if WB is daylight or otherwise. And, knowing there are a few stops of underexposure latitude helps a lot.
Considering colour: the minimal "new" control needed is selecting WB between 5600- and 3200-degrees k with Auto in between. The M2/3 and MP rewind knob is perfect for conversion into functioning as such a 3-position toggle switch. Rotate the engraved arrow head to a new detent either at the 1- 3- or 5 o'clock positions. Fine colour tuning can be done in post-processing.
If full-Auto can be made reliable, no such toggle switch is even needed.
Use an i-Touch or i-Phone for chimping after-the-fact. Assessory devices are now available.
The real issue for me is how to deal with M owners with bad shutter, RF or cannot shoot with sunny-16. No doubt they would think something is wrong with the DIY package before checking their own equipment...first.
Perhaps a mandatory CLA plus d-M package installation service can be organized...just like in my stereo plotter retrofit old days.
One CCD vendor contacted would/could package their chip that way upon a "large enough" order.
Such an encased CCD could be mounted in a way to fit through the shutter opening [net available depth 2mm, enough even for filter layers and cover glass], with the image plane aligned with the film guide rail top surface. The rest of the pins and frame materials are behind that plane and would not matter. No surgery needed.
A crop factor equivalent of 1.06 could not hurt much. I don't care if a 50mm lens is now really 53mm or a 35mm is really a 37mm. Most M-users could never compose to the true FF anyway.
The 45 x 90 x 7mm space now occupied by the back door could indeed be used to fit most of the simple Frame Grabber, Buffer and Write-to-SD electronics. If need be, place some of the components in a multi-layer board in the space now occupied by the removable take-up spool. Some more work needs to be done.
Many lithium-ion 1600 mAH battery fitting in the film cartridge space are available.
It also occurred to me that if a 24 M-pixel 16-bit B/W raw-only conversion is made, a 2Gb SD card would only hold about 40 shots. The existing camera frame counter is therefore perfectly usable...especially the M2. If I must use HC/SD, I can keep track mentally...or use only 2Gb SD, <$10 each. So change SD as frequently as you would using film.
Upon discussing with a few old-timer friends, we all agreed that if someone handed you an M2/3/4 camera pre-loaded with Tri-X, you would simply shoot away...using a hand-held meter or not. You could not and would not care if WB is daylight or otherwise. And, knowing there are a few stops of underexposure latitude helps a lot.
Considering colour: the minimal "new" control needed is selecting WB between 5600- and 3200-degrees k with Auto in between. The M2/3 and MP rewind knob is perfect for conversion into functioning as such a 3-position toggle switch. Rotate the engraved arrow head to a new detent either at the 1- 3- or 5 o'clock positions. Fine colour tuning can be done in post-processing.
If full-Auto can be made reliable, no such toggle switch is even needed.
Use an i-Touch or i-Phone for chimping after-the-fact. Assessory devices are now available.
The real issue for me is how to deal with M owners with bad shutter, RF or cannot shoot with sunny-16. No doubt they would think something is wrong with the DIY package before checking their own equipment...first.
Perhaps a mandatory CLA plus d-M package installation service can be organized...just like in my stereo plotter retrofit old days.
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River Dog
Always looking
This is the best thread I have read in many years. I am no big fan of digital but I use it when I have to.
What I do love are film cameras. What I would love is a non-dedicated form factor a little like this, that I can drop into any 35mm film camera:
The sensor cassette would just be "digital film" - with a fixed ISO or adjustable on the cassette, no LCD (eyeFi SD cards can transmit to iPhones and iPads for chimping). All exposure and focus settings stay with the recipient camera.
What happened to this? What do you need? Is there a "project team" I can join? I am ex-Apple and Microsoft, willing to put in some work.
I intuitively believe there is a large niche market for this (and that is just in Japan
)
There is little motivation for camera manufacturers to get into this - but there might be for someone else.
Anyway, if you do want to put more in the public domain, please send me a private message.
What I do love are film cameras. What I would love is a non-dedicated form factor a little like this, that I can drop into any 35mm film camera:
The sensor cassette would just be "digital film" - with a fixed ISO or adjustable on the cassette, no LCD (eyeFi SD cards can transmit to iPhones and iPads for chimping). All exposure and focus settings stay with the recipient camera.
What happened to this? What do you need? Is there a "project team" I can join? I am ex-Apple and Microsoft, willing to put in some work.
I intuitively believe there is a large niche market for this (and that is just in Japan
)There is little motivation for camera manufacturers to get into this - but there might be for someone else.
Anyway, if you do want to put more in the public domain, please send me a private message.