First experience being told 'not to photograph'

scottwallick

scottwallick

ambition ≥ skill
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This might be a tired subject, but since I got my taste of it today, I thought I would share.

So today on my commute home today, in NYC, I was snapping here and there on a subway platform when I was approached by a NYPD officer (not MTA police).

The officer calmly told me, "I just want to let you know that photograph on the subway is not allowed. You can't photograph here."

I politely responded, "Sir, actually, yes I can. There is no law prohibiting me from photographing the subway."

There was a bit of no you can't, yes I can back and forth. He said that the subway rules prohibit photography and was pretty cordial.

Anyhow, he then told me, "I'm not going to do anything, but if one of the MTA police see you, they'll give you a ticket."

Now, after I had called him, he was raising me. "MTA police cannot issue a ticket for photography on the subway. I'm not just contradicting you, but that is incorrect."

He then just said, "I'm just saying. I could care less." And with that he walked off.

Just to confirm what I already knew, when I got home I checked the MTA Rules of Conduct and according to Section 1050.9(c):

Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Part.
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For reference: http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm#restricted

So there. I was right, he was wrong. Actually, I felt a little embarrassed for the officer. He had been polite and noninvasive and I, on a platform during rush hour with 50 or more people listening, told him no, you're wrong, and sent him on his way.

+1 for the photographer
 
Meh. The photos were nothing to write about (literally and perhaps obviously, since the omission was no accident).

But since you asked [ :) ], here are two.



(Note: the 75mm length doesn't really lend itself well to the subway, but I guess I was just figuring that out.)
 
I must admire you. I tend to walk away from police, especially when they tell me not to do something. I guess I should learn from your example...
 
I'm glad you fought and won!

But,

I was recently arrested for photographing a hit and run involving a bicyclist and spent the night in a cold jail. I was wrongfully charged with "drunk in public" and I still have to go to court to fight it.

For me, it's not longer about being right but what I can get away with. That's why I shoot rangefinders in public places.
 
Weigh the situation. Sometimes its not worth the hassle. A guy with a host of bodyguards confronted me about taking a photo and asked me not to do so. Looking the guy eye-to-eye I said, "ok."
 
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And once again I will add...Ask to see this Law they are enforcing in writing...they won't have it on them so tell them you'll wait for it (it doesn't exist so they will intimidate,
threaten and scare you to give in to them)...you're innocent until proven guilty...
The cops know you're right and for the most part cannot stop you from photgraphing in a public place...if they could he would have...
 
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scottwallick said:
The officer calmly told me, "I just want to let you know that photograph on the subway is not allowed. You can't photograph here."
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For some unknown reason there is (still) a lot of ignorance, on the part of those who should know better, regarding photography in subways. Although both NYC and Chicago expressly permit noncommercial photos, there are countless cases of people being confronted.

It happened to me a few years back, by a maintenance worker. I even have a shot which includes the guy, about 2/3 the way down on the page here:

http://omababe.blogspot.com/2008/02/beneath-windy-city.html

I haven't heard of anyone actually getting a summons or worse for simply taking photos on the subway, however.
 
Even though it's not right... I can understand why these people in authority are doing what they're doing. I must be a very big burden to be the front line of defense in urban terrorism... if something happens the first thing that people will ask is "why weren't security and police doing anything to prevent it". The problem is that terrorists must have to be fairly smart/cunning to pull off what they do... so these rules and regulations prohibiting photography etc are going to be pretty useless against anyone actually trying to HIDE what they're doing. But these cops need to be seen doing something, enforcing these laws that are supposed to stop the terrorists dead in their tracks... so us photographers doing nothing to hide our actions are getting picked on.

It's not right... but I have sympathy for the cops that are honestly just trying to cope with the stress of being responsible. The cop in this case did what he *thought* was right, but wasn't an ass and backed down when he obviously realized the photographer wasn't up to no good. I can understand he can't outright admit he's wrong... he has to save face to remain a respected authority figure. It's the renegade vigilante cops that are going to enforce their imaginary rules no matter how ridiculous or ill-applied they are that are the problem.

In this case I applaud both the photographer and the cop... the situation got resolved with a minimum fuss.
 
I get nervous about challenging cops even when they're wrong and I'm demonstrably right. I mean, they have a sort of unfair advantage what with the Dick Tracy two-way radios, batons, badges, cuffs and, let's not forget, semi-automatic weapons. Nevertheless, hat's off to you for standing your ground. I think showing respect when disagreeing is generally the road to not getting one's self needlessly and wrongly arrested. Also, knowing when to back down is good, too. Off course, if you didn't have any evening plans, I suppose you could have withstood an arrest in the interest of promoting civil rights and a better understanding by our constabulary of our own local laws. It's time-consuming and I am led to believe that the Tombs and Rikers are unpleasant places to spend a night. I guess a summons and a court appearance would be much less hassle. I wonder if a municipal judge would reprimand a cop for that?

I don't ride the NYC subways myself very often anymore, but I always have a camera and I always use it when I can. So, thanks for standing up for all of us.

Scott, last but not least, thanks for posting your pix.

My attitude is that if you haven't been asked to desist from photography then you're probably not shooting enough.;)
 
robklurfield said:
My attitude is that if you haven't been asked to desist from photography then you're probably not shooting enough.;)
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You're probably right... I've yet to be stopped by cops in Ottawa, I think the police here are far more used to cameras everywhere and the fear level in Ottawa is pretty low... we haven't *fingers crossed* been the target of terrorism for as long as I can remember... and the city is pretty good with allowing peaceful protests of all kinds.

I mostly get stopped by the street vendors in the Market... the ones selling "unique" jewelry and wares from places like South America etc... the most sited reason is they think I'm going to copy their designs. "So I could buy this necklace for $10 and spend as much time as I want copying it.... or I could take a crappy pic with my wide angle lens and try to figure it out from that?" I usually shrug it off as most of these vendors are from the countries where their unique wares are from: middle-east, south-america, eastern europe... and maybe they grew up with vastly different privacy and photography laws than we have here.... but I do try to educate when it seems like they'll actually listen.
 
As the old saying goes, the police have to be right every time. Terrorists only have to get it right once. I HATE how the terrorists have ruined the world. At some point, they'll get killed or get old and die. The key is to prevent a new generation of children from becoming terrorists. That's quite a challenge with "Death to America" being taught to school children. Lord forbid that they teach them something useful -- like real knowledge.
 
I tend to react to the cops a little differently. It's yes sir and no sir, then when they leave I go back to doing what I was doing. In my mind, and w/ the experiences that I've had, arguing w/ them usually results in even more problems. I'll agree w/ most anybody about most anything if they will just go away and leave me be.
 
Steve M. said:
I tend to react to the cops a little differently. It's yes sir and no sir, then when they leave I go back to doing what I was doing.
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I too am nothing but polite with the police. In this instance, I was yes sir and no sir. At one point, I even thanked him for his service. And I will do as instructed, so long as it is a lawful command.

But if a police were to come up to me and tell me not to listen to my iPod, I'm not going to take out my ear phones and put it away. He just doesn't have the authority to do that just like he didn't have the authority to tell me not to photograph on the NYC subways.

Yet I think whether or not the encounter escalates is wholly dependent on the disposition of the particular police at that moment. If he wanted to, he could take me in. Of course, it wouldn't hold up in court (as I was complying with laws and subway rules). But still, it's something to consider.
 
Sorry to hear about your confrontation Scott, but I feel you did the correct thing in standing up for your rights.

What disturbs me about the increasing prevalence of these incidents is that I think they have less to do with specific security concerns and more to do with an amorphous sense of paranoia, and a need to control the public's use of public space by both governments and private corporations.

I was stopped by a PDO (Paid Duty Officer) in Toronto a few weeks back for trying to photograph a movie crew that was shooting on Bay Street in the middle of the day. What particularly angered me was that we weren't even talking about security concerns in this case, only commercial ones. A film production outfit was using public property to create a saleable commodity and a police officer hired by the production was telling me that because of this, my regular rights as a citizen did not apply. I work in the industry and while I appreciate the concerns, I know this is bunk. If the production wants to keep elements of filming under wraps, it's their responsibility to shoot on a closed set or back lot, not in the middle of one of the busiest streets in Canada. The cop was surly and pretty aggressive, so I chose not to make an issue of it - I have a bit of a temper in these situations and getting into it with a power-tripping police officer didn't seem like a smart thing to do . I simply walked around the corner and took my shot.

The pix isn't particularly good or memorable, but I might post it here just to make a point of it.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling story. I sometimes wonder how much classic street photography would even exist if it were subject to today's restrictions. And yet, somehow, the world didn't end, lives weren't ruined, etc., because HCB et al. took photographs.
 
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