Rob-F
Likes Leicas
The difference between the M-Monochrom and the M9 is readily apparent even on the monitor? That is something I've been wanting to know. Thanks for mentioning that!
Freakscene
Obscure member
Simon and I are friends. I don’t normally do weddings, but Simon asked if we would, and my wife and I agreed to photograph it for Simon and his then fiancee.
The photos even turned out allright, but maybe Simon can chime in on that.
And, of course, you are right. The world is not that big, especially in 2019.
Marty
airfrogusmc
Mentor
This is just beautiful Richard.
airfrogusmc
Mentor
I oredered my MM in 2012. I have a freind that has an M 9 and I spent some time with it before i pulled the trigger on the MM. I am an old darkroom rat and I never really warmed up to digital B&W. When the origianl MM was offered I thought I would give it a try. The MM is the only digital B&W that really did the trick for me. I have a couple of M 10s and for my personal B&W work I sill use my original MM. It has had the sensor replaced.
Ted Striker
Well-known
Leica specifically stated that the CCD sensors corrode. This is an oxygen driven process, not humidity. Oxidation (corrosion) can happen in a low humidity environment.
Andrew Johns
Member
For those that aren't aware, the corrosion forms on (or between) the optical coating that is applied to the surface of the UV/IR cut filter cover glass that sits over the top of the sensor.
I acquired a heavily corroded sensor from a Leica M-E a while ago and had the opportunity to run a few experiments on it. I was actually able to successfully remove the corroded coating from the glass with sodium hydroxide and a cotton ball. Unfortunately, the corrosion had etched the glass surface underneath, leaving it more or less useless, as the etchings would cast shadows onto the sensor plane underneath. So, I proceeded to remove the glass and took it a step further by also removing the CFA to attempt a DIY monochrome conversion. Here are a few sample images, one with the CFA partially removed, and two comparing the DIY monochrome conversion with a 720nm infrared filter to my MM1 straight out of camera. I also adjusted the sensor stack for proper rangefinder focusing while shooting infrared on the M-E.
partial CFA removal
straight MM1
modified M-E with 720nm infrared filter
I acquired a heavily corroded sensor from a Leica M-E a while ago and had the opportunity to run a few experiments on it. I was actually able to successfully remove the corroded coating from the glass with sodium hydroxide and a cotton ball. Unfortunately, the corrosion had etched the glass surface underneath, leaving it more or less useless, as the etchings would cast shadows onto the sensor plane underneath. So, I proceeded to remove the glass and took it a step further by also removing the CFA to attempt a DIY monochrome conversion. Here are a few sample images, one with the CFA partially removed, and two comparing the DIY monochrome conversion with a 720nm infrared filter to my MM1 straight out of camera. I also adjusted the sensor stack for proper rangefinder focusing while shooting infrared on the M-E.
partial CFA removal
straight MM1
modified M-E with 720nm infrared filter
Richard G
Mentor
Thanks very much Allen.
Freakscene
Obscure member
In material science corrosion is any change in a material into a more chemically stable form.
I come across the same problem that caused oxidation in the sensor cover of the MM cameras all the time in developing optical instruments for deployment in seawater.
The corrosion of rare earth fluorite glass is well described, and there are models for understanding it, for example:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022024887904763
in this case the process is water driven, and is not oxygen oxidation. The rare earth metals are held as cations in the lattice structure of the glass and water facilitates their oxidation by the fluorine in the glass. No oxygen is required.
In the Schott S8612 brochure
https://us.shop.schott.com/medias/s...U0Mzc3N2UyM2EyYWM2ZjI1MzI5ZGMzZTgwZDI2ZjNlOGQ
Schott gives the glass two thunderclouds out of five for weather resistance and states that "Long-term changes of the polished surface are possible". They do not recommend it for implementations where weather resistance needs to be strong. As I described here: https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2920034&postcount=37 Leica chose the glass based on performance and price and thought they could coat the glass in a way that would prevent corrosion, but they were wrong. These things happen. The corrosion can happen in low humidity because changes in temperature still facilitate condensation, and even 'low humidity' atmospheric air contains more than enough water to facilitate this oxidation. Where microscope manufacturers use this type of glass as an external or drop-in filter they seal it in a unit containing dry nitrogen with more inert glass on either side. Internally it is used mainly in well sealed units.
It is not the coating that oxidises. The coatings are similar to lens optical coatings, and are very durable. Where the coating is imperfect, water can reach the glass underneath and the glass corrodes. The coating is undermined and collapses. I don't know if the coverglass was sealed at the edges and on the back or if only the surface facing the imaging light was coated. What I do know is that I bought my MM in August 2012 and its sensor was corroded by November, replaced in December and returned in January 2013. By October 2013 some corrosion was evident again and I returned it to Leica in January 2014. It returned in May 2014 with another new sensor and by March 2015 was so corroded that any time I stopped it down I had a myriad of haloed spots.
I liked the files from the MM better, but I got a Typ 246 in June 2015 and at least have only had to clean the sensor since. The store that traded it for me got it back from Leica and Simon bought it. I am curious to hear how it has gone since then.
When it worked the MM produced beautiful images.
Marty
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Kamurah
Member
Yes....this really happened
Yes....this really happened
Warning....this is kind of long...
I was having a discussion with my wife (amazingly we actually talk about camera gear), recalling what piece of equipment had been HER favorite. She was never really enamored with DSLR's, and she now shoots on her IPhone. I was certain she was going to say the Nikon F2a we used for several years was her fave...but she didn't. Instead she named the Leica M6. Now I once owned a brand new M6 and a 50mm lens for a short period of time about 20 years ago. She shot with it maybe twice. I stupidly traded it in on a Canon DSLR and have not had the funds to dip back into the Leica pool again.
I was shocked she named the M6, but in retrospect, I loved that camera too. It had the build quality of a professional tool. Like something you would find in your optometrist's office. It was so quiet....the little 'shhk' of the shutter. Glorious...but hideously expensive ecosystem. It reminded me of my Hasselblad...but just more like the James Bond version. Percentage-wise, I had the greatest number of 'keepers' from the M6 of any film camera I ever used.
This brings us to today.
I don't follow Leica announcements or evolutions...there is little point...I cannot afford them, and I don't really enjoy owning cameras that I get OCD about. If I own a camera, I want to USE it...not collect it on a shelf. Just my hangup.
After our discussion, I hopped on ebay and Amazon just to see what the current going rate for Leicas was. There has been only one model that piqued my interest in the past decade, and that was the M Monochrom. What a cool idea, I thought, that Leica would just fly in the face of everything and make a PURE Black and White digital camera that functioned just like a M!
So I looked up M Monochrom on Amazon....
And my heart withheld services for several beats.
I saw something that defied logic and any expectation I could have imagined. I estimated that the Monochrom would be somewhere between 3 and 8 thousand dollars. I remember when they were introduced they were right at 8k.
In front of me was a product page, on Amazon, offering a brand NEW, unused Leica M Monochrom (first generation...released circa 2012....) for the price of...............
$246.00 USD. NEW.
WHAT???? This was an $8000.00 camera new!!! Eight Thousand Dollars.
I literally had a minor panic attack. My mind was racing. Surely this was a typo? If it was a typo, would they have to honor it? So many questions...but I convinced myself if I didn't act fast it would be gone in seconds and my fear of losing out overtook. There was only 1 available.
I pressed 'Buy'.
So convinced I was that the seller would renege on the deal, I started researching whether they were obligated or not to sell me the item once they noticed their mistake. I waited over the weekend for Monday morning, and the (in my mind) inevitable "Seller has cancelled this order and issued you a refund" message. I wasn't going to push it. It would be unreasonable to expect them to follow through on this.
No cancellation message came.
The camera arrived new, untouched, in the original box with all the accoutrements.
I was torn and on the fence as to whether I should keep the camera, or just turn around and sell it on ebay for a nice profit.
In the end, passion won out over prudence. I sent the camera to Leica NJ for CLA / Certification (after calling to make sure it was not a stolen item).
Leica's estimate for repair indicated the sensor corrosion issue...but since I did not buy the item new from a Leica distributor, they would not honor the 5 years since purchase statement. I told them to go ahead, so I am now waiting for the camera to be repaired / returned.
I guess it is ok as I will have a brand new M9M with the upgraded sensor and a 12 month warranty, for less than I could have bought one used on the market.
Still makes a good story!
Cheers
Yes....this really happened
Warning....this is kind of long...
I was having a discussion with my wife (amazingly we actually talk about camera gear), recalling what piece of equipment had been HER favorite. She was never really enamored with DSLR's, and she now shoots on her IPhone. I was certain she was going to say the Nikon F2a we used for several years was her fave...but she didn't. Instead she named the Leica M6. Now I once owned a brand new M6 and a 50mm lens for a short period of time about 20 years ago. She shot with it maybe twice. I stupidly traded it in on a Canon DSLR and have not had the funds to dip back into the Leica pool again.
I was shocked she named the M6, but in retrospect, I loved that camera too. It had the build quality of a professional tool. Like something you would find in your optometrist's office. It was so quiet....the little 'shhk' of the shutter. Glorious...but hideously expensive ecosystem. It reminded me of my Hasselblad...but just more like the James Bond version. Percentage-wise, I had the greatest number of 'keepers' from the M6 of any film camera I ever used.
This brings us to today.
I don't follow Leica announcements or evolutions...there is little point...I cannot afford them, and I don't really enjoy owning cameras that I get OCD about. If I own a camera, I want to USE it...not collect it on a shelf. Just my hangup.
After our discussion, I hopped on ebay and Amazon just to see what the current going rate for Leicas was. There has been only one model that piqued my interest in the past decade, and that was the M Monochrom. What a cool idea, I thought, that Leica would just fly in the face of everything and make a PURE Black and White digital camera that functioned just like a M!
So I looked up M Monochrom on Amazon....
And my heart withheld services for several beats.
I saw something that defied logic and any expectation I could have imagined. I estimated that the Monochrom would be somewhere between 3 and 8 thousand dollars. I remember when they were introduced they were right at 8k.
In front of me was a product page, on Amazon, offering a brand NEW, unused Leica M Monochrom (first generation...released circa 2012....) for the price of...............
$246.00 USD. NEW.
WHAT???? This was an $8000.00 camera new!!! Eight Thousand Dollars.
I literally had a minor panic attack. My mind was racing. Surely this was a typo? If it was a typo, would they have to honor it? So many questions...but I convinced myself if I didn't act fast it would be gone in seconds and my fear of losing out overtook. There was only 1 available.
I pressed 'Buy'.
So convinced I was that the seller would renege on the deal, I started researching whether they were obligated or not to sell me the item once they noticed their mistake. I waited over the weekend for Monday morning, and the (in my mind) inevitable "Seller has cancelled this order and issued you a refund" message. I wasn't going to push it. It would be unreasonable to expect them to follow through on this.
No cancellation message came.
The camera arrived new, untouched, in the original box with all the accoutrements.
I was torn and on the fence as to whether I should keep the camera, or just turn around and sell it on ebay for a nice profit.
In the end, passion won out over prudence. I sent the camera to Leica NJ for CLA / Certification (after calling to make sure it was not a stolen item).
Leica's estimate for repair indicated the sensor corrosion issue...but since I did not buy the item new from a Leica distributor, they would not honor the 5 years since purchase statement. I told them to go ahead, so I am now waiting for the camera to be repaired / returned.
I guess it is ok as I will have a brand new M9M with the upgraded sensor and a 12 month warranty, for less than I could have bought one used on the market.
Still makes a good story!
Cheers
Vince Lupo
Nobody's Mentor
Believe it or not, I actually sold my 246 a couple of weeks ago (I was one of the very first people on the US East Coast to get one when they came out in 2015, and had an M9M previously). I've decided to go the mirrorless route with a Nikon Z7, which I purchased in December. It's early days yet, but so far the results are pretty impressive, at least to me.
Mr Pan by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
New Year's Riley Z7 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
NYT Z7 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
Lee Z7-2 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
As of right now I think I'm not going to go for the new M10M - things seem to be going pretty well with this current arrangement, but that could always change!
Mr Pan by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
New Year's Riley Z7 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
NYT Z7 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
Lee Z7-2 by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
As of right now I think I'm not going to go for the new M10M - things seem to be going pretty well with this current arrangement, but that could always change!
rhl-oregon
Cameras Guitars Wonders
Vince, you were supposed to save all that for the “How Did I Get Out of the MM” thread. ;-)
airfrogusmc
Mentor
I have a feeling there is an M 10 M in your future Vince.
Vince Lupo
Nobody's Mentor
If there is, it will be very much down the road. I’ve actually gotten a bit tired of spending $8k+ on a body that starts to depreciate the minute you drive it off the lot. But that’s the way it seems to be with all digital cameras, even those that don’t cost $8k+.
Benjamin Marks
Mentor
Vince Lupo
Nobody's Mentor
Yeah really - blame it on the Z7!
Vince Lupo
Nobody's Mentor
Why Vince, I can't imagine why.
No it’s fine - I just discovered that the Z7 has been working for me quite well, and the black and white images from it are very much to my liking (plus I’m waiting to see if the 61mp Z8 comes to pass later this year). So for $2700 I get a 45.7mp body that I can use commercially for stills and video, as well as for black and white work. And if I want to use my M lenses, I can do that too (though the native Z lenses are really great). I still have my M-D, so not completely leaving Leica.
I called Kodak in 2009 after the first M9 was out, and asked them to make a Monochrome version. I was preaching to the choir. The engineer told me they had wanted to do a monochrome M8, and that if any company was going to bring out a Monochrome camera- it should be Leica. We talked about the DCS760m, and the DCS200ir that they made for me in the early 90s. The engineer remembered that camera. He told me they had a meeting with Leica soon, and he would bring it up.
In 2012- they finally brought out the M Monochrom, I sold some lenses and pre-ordered one. Have had it ever since.
L1005693-Edit by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr
In 2012- they finally brought out the M Monochrom, I sold some lenses and pre-ordered one. Have had it ever since.
L1005693-Edit by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr