Mos6502
Well-known
Ferrania just announced a new black and white film, called P33. I haven't read the specs on it, or anything else about it. I just know they're making it and will be selling it.
I'm curious how people feel about Ferrania at this point. I know that a lot of us pitched in a few dollars for their kickstarter campaign, years and years ago. And maybe you've forgot about it, or maybe they hope you've forgot about it. On one hand, I'm happy there's a new film out. On the other, I feel a little bit let down at this point that the money has been spent on developing a product different than the one promised. Ferrania's 2nd chance came about as the result of a promise of making slide film, which at the time that promise was made, the future of slide film as a whole looked very dim. Year after year went by, with a lot of "maybe next year" from Ferrania. So much time has gone by that Kodak has even resuscitated Ektachrome, and Ferrania's proposed niche in the film market seems a whole lot less crucial now.
I've run kickstarter campaigns myself. I know, on an admittedly smaller scale, that delays can happen and problems can arise in creating the product. In a way I almost feel like I'd be less annoyed if the money went "poof!" and the whole thing fizzled out. Instead I'm frustrated by years and years of excuses, of having to contact Ferrania and try to update my mailing address in the hopes that the promised slide film is not delayed indefinitely, of watching them push out other products that weren't promised, and of seeing viable competition come along and take care of the scarcity they had used to give their project a sense of urgency in the first place. I've seen people a lot more upset than I am about it, and I've seen people who don't care at all that they paid for something and got nothing. I feel reluctant to purchase either of the black and white films Ferrania have come out with, not simply because of the above given reasons, but because there are lots of black and white films on the market which are already known quantities to me. How does anybody else feel about this situation?
I'm curious how people feel about Ferrania at this point. I know that a lot of us pitched in a few dollars for their kickstarter campaign, years and years ago. And maybe you've forgot about it, or maybe they hope you've forgot about it. On one hand, I'm happy there's a new film out. On the other, I feel a little bit let down at this point that the money has been spent on developing a product different than the one promised. Ferrania's 2nd chance came about as the result of a promise of making slide film, which at the time that promise was made, the future of slide film as a whole looked very dim. Year after year went by, with a lot of "maybe next year" from Ferrania. So much time has gone by that Kodak has even resuscitated Ektachrome, and Ferrania's proposed niche in the film market seems a whole lot less crucial now.
I've run kickstarter campaigns myself. I know, on an admittedly smaller scale, that delays can happen and problems can arise in creating the product. In a way I almost feel like I'd be less annoyed if the money went "poof!" and the whole thing fizzled out. Instead I'm frustrated by years and years of excuses, of having to contact Ferrania and try to update my mailing address in the hopes that the promised slide film is not delayed indefinitely, of watching them push out other products that weren't promised, and of seeing viable competition come along and take care of the scarcity they had used to give their project a sense of urgency in the first place. I've seen people a lot more upset than I am about it, and I've seen people who don't care at all that they paid for something and got nothing. I feel reluctant to purchase either of the black and white films Ferrania have come out with, not simply because of the above given reasons, but because there are lots of black and white films on the market which are already known quantities to me. How does anybody else feel about this situation?
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
Well, I share a lot of your thoughts and frustrations, @Mos6502. It's an understandable position. I also feel somewhat more invested in this than I possibly should be as I interviewed one of the guys from Ferrania for a podcast during their kickstarter campaign to help get them over the line; they sent me a t-shirt as thanks (which I still have, although my newly-acquired beer gut makes it a tighter fit than it used to be!).
However, looking at this pragmatically... I'm just glad someone else is making film of any kind. For a while there, it seemed like we were going to end up in a position where the only people who were going to be able to coat film themselves were Kodak and Ilford, and everyone else was going to have to get their film manufactured by them - which would make the future of film photography a lot more delicate and tenuous. If black and white film keeps Ferrania around and viable as a small manufacturer, I'm happy to see it. It's for this reason I'm also happy to see Shanghai re-appearing again - especially with them producing 620, 220, and 127 film. Small companies are often more flexible and more interesting than giant behemoths with large overheads to consider.
Ironically though, since the Kickstarter in 2013/2014 (I forget the exact year), I have almost completely stopped shooting colour film altogether. I think I've maybe shot two rolls of colour - both E6 - in the last decade; it's all been black and white, so P30 (and the new P33) suits me a lot more than the original idea does nowadays. I'd still like to see the E6 stock appear, though. I've never really liked Kodak's E6 offerings, so another alternative would be nice.
But ultimately? More film options are a good thing... even if they're not exactly what I'm looking for myself.
However, looking at this pragmatically... I'm just glad someone else is making film of any kind. For a while there, it seemed like we were going to end up in a position where the only people who were going to be able to coat film themselves were Kodak and Ilford, and everyone else was going to have to get their film manufactured by them - which would make the future of film photography a lot more delicate and tenuous. If black and white film keeps Ferrania around and viable as a small manufacturer, I'm happy to see it. It's for this reason I'm also happy to see Shanghai re-appearing again - especially with them producing 620, 220, and 127 film. Small companies are often more flexible and more interesting than giant behemoths with large overheads to consider.
Ironically though, since the Kickstarter in 2013/2014 (I forget the exact year), I have almost completely stopped shooting colour film altogether. I think I've maybe shot two rolls of colour - both E6 - in the last decade; it's all been black and white, so P30 (and the new P33) suits me a lot more than the original idea does nowadays. I'd still like to see the E6 stock appear, though. I've never really liked Kodak's E6 offerings, so another alternative would be nice.
But ultimately? More film options are a good thing... even if they're not exactly what I'm looking for myself.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I gave them some money on their originll kickstarter campaign, and have enjoyed the P30 film they came up with, in both 35 and 120 format. They didn't meet the original objective, but eh? they've done better than about 30% of the kickstarters I encouraged. And P30 is an excellent film.
Kickstarter projects are, to me, a hopeful way to advance new innovation with aspiring inventors/producers. I don't expect all of them to succeed. Film Ferrania hasn't failed entirely, and has produced some good product along the way, so it's a thumbs-up from me.
G
Kickstarter projects are, to me, a hopeful way to advance new innovation with aspiring inventors/producers. I don't expect all of them to succeed. Film Ferrania hasn't failed entirely, and has produced some good product along the way, so it's a thumbs-up from me.
G
Mos6502
Well-known
Just as an aside, I see that Lucky SHD has returned. I'm not sure who is actually making the stuff, but it raises a question of where these revived films fit in today. I used to shoot a lot of Lucky film because it was cheap, very cheap, cheaper than Fomapan, and produced satisfactory results if you kept in mind its shortcomings. Now that it's back it costs about the same as Fomapan and Kentmere. The new "Lucky" is apparently on a thicker base than the original film, which should overcome issues of the original, but it makes me question if that's enough for it to compete head to head with Foma and Kentmere. Shanghai GP3 is also more expensive than these films, but at least they offer theirs in 220 which gives them something more than price to compete on.
Ferrania's P30 is at least unlike anything anybody else is making in black and white films, but I'm also reminded that in addition to originally promising slide film, they claimed they'd be making film available in a lot of formats, which also hasn't happened yet.
Mackinaw
Think Different
I was in on the initial Kickstarter campaign.
Personally, I don't care if Ferrania ever makes an E6 film. P30 is truly unique and is now being made in 120. They've just introduced P33 and have teased a color film in one of the promo videos. Considering all the problems they had to contend with (asbestos in the factory, Covid, etc.) it's remarkable that they've made it this far. I'm look forward to whatever future products they bring out.
Jim B.
Personally, I don't care if Ferrania ever makes an E6 film. P30 is truly unique and is now being made in 120. They've just introduced P33 and have teased a color film in one of the promo videos. Considering all the problems they had to contend with (asbestos in the factory, Covid, etc.) it's remarkable that they've made it this far. I'm look forward to whatever future products they bring out.
Jim B.
Pioneer
Mentor
I guess I sit on the other side of this. I had, and still have, lots of options for black and white film. I didn't provide kickstarter money for another black and white film. I invested in a Ferrania slide film. Haven't bought anything from them because they haven't produced any. Won't be investing any more money in them. I don't like being lied to.
Mos6502
Well-known
I think the thing that frustrates me is the claims made by Ferrania when they were doing fundraising. They claimed in 2014 that they were all ready to go with a limited run of film (indeed I believe they actually claimed they were in the process of producing it, but I'll have to go back and check their exact words), and that it would be delivered to people who funded them in 2015. That was their claim in 2014.
It seems kind of beyond comprehension that they could have made such a claim at the time, without knowing that it was absolutely false and could not be reasonably done. That is very frustrating. If they had claimed in 2014 that they needed fundraising for asbestos removal and would have a black and white film produced in two or three years, I would have been perfectly pleased to have given them my money, waited a few years, got the black and white film, and been happy that I helped another company start up film production.
It seems kind of beyond comprehension that they could have made such a claim at the time, without knowing that it was absolutely false and could not be reasonably done. That is very frustrating. If they had claimed in 2014 that they needed fundraising for asbestos removal and would have a black and white film produced in two or three years, I would have been perfectly pleased to have given them my money, waited a few years, got the black and white film, and been happy that I helped another company start up film production.
Mos6502
Well-known
I reached out to Ferrania again, and was given some info. As I'm way beyond being on the edge of my seat, awaiting the latest news from the company, I missed their official response to those who helped fund their return through kickstarter: Kickstarter
In full:
I'm going to bet that the vast majority of the 5,000 people who sent them money have not seen this. I've also received some other curious information which I have not been able to independently substantiate. Essentially the company has more or less washed their hands of the whole kickstarter thing and the people who were in charge of it. I was offered a hefty (and I would say, under different circumstances, a "generous") discount on their films. Even so with the minimum cost of international shipping it meant a large purchase in order for the shipping costs to be effectively cancelled out by the discount. I'm neither happy or unhappy with this outcome. It is what it is.
It would seem that we're not going to see the slide film in the foreseeable future, and even if it does arrive at some point, it will not be sent to kickstarter participants as a reward. If you're still using the same email you had a decade ago, you should have received the offer from them, or it may have gone into your spam, whatever. If you didn't receive it (I never saw it) contact their customer service rep.
In full:
I'm going to bet that the vast majority of the 5,000 people who sent them money have not seen this. I've also received some other curious information which I have not been able to independently substantiate. Essentially the company has more or less washed their hands of the whole kickstarter thing and the people who were in charge of it. I was offered a hefty (and I would say, under different circumstances, a "generous") discount on their films. Even so with the minimum cost of international shipping it meant a large purchase in order for the shipping costs to be effectively cancelled out by the discount. I'm neither happy or unhappy with this outcome. It is what it is.
It would seem that we're not going to see the slide film in the foreseeable future, and even if it does arrive at some point, it will not be sent to kickstarter participants as a reward. If you're still using the same email you had a decade ago, you should have received the offer from them, or it may have gone into your spam, whatever. If you didn't receive it (I never saw it) contact their customer service rep.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
All Kickstarter projects are in some way speculative. Some are, quite obviously, entirely achievable - but only if enough people share your taste sufficiently that they'll subscribe to the campaign. I've backed a few of those: some have succeeded and some haven't met their fundraising goals - so never happened. That (IMO) is part of the cleverness of the Kickstarter model - for that kind of project. If not enough people do share your taste then you're not charged for backing the project. If enough do, then (almost all the time) you'll get what you wanted because the only issue was number of backers, not achievability.
[In fact, for one project I backed - an artistic, not technical, endeavour - I committed to paying enough to make sure the funding goal was met - and told the lady embarking on the project that I would do just that, to help take the stress out of it for her. Fortunately that wasn't needed - and it was a small enough sum that I could have and would have kept the promise.]
Film Ferrania wasn't that kind of project.
IMO (again) their initial project was hugely ambitious and I thought, even back then, perhaps overly so. I backed it anyway, and simply treated that as an endorsement and a big 🫰 for success. I'd written the money off as soon as I paid it. (In fact I had no real use for or desire to use slide film - I just thought they were having a red-hot go at film production at a time when encouraging anyone to produce any kind of film seemed valuable, in the hope that at least some worked out, survived, and helped keep film alive.)
My view is that Kickstarter projects that might well be unachievable should be treated as donations to the cause, not purchases.
...Mike
[In fact, for one project I backed - an artistic, not technical, endeavour - I committed to paying enough to make sure the funding goal was met - and told the lady embarking on the project that I would do just that, to help take the stress out of it for her. Fortunately that wasn't needed - and it was a small enough sum that I could have and would have kept the promise.]
Film Ferrania wasn't that kind of project.
IMO (again) their initial project was hugely ambitious and I thought, even back then, perhaps overly so. I backed it anyway, and simply treated that as an endorsement and a big 🫰 for success. I'd written the money off as soon as I paid it. (In fact I had no real use for or desire to use slide film - I just thought they were having a red-hot go at film production at a time when encouraging anyone to produce any kind of film seemed valuable, in the hope that at least some worked out, survived, and helped keep film alive.)
My view is that Kickstarter projects that might well be unachievable should be treated as donations to the cause, not purchases.
...Mike
Mos6502
Well-known
That is all well understood. What is frustrating, again, is that they had claimed they were ready to make a special batch of film in 2014.
From their kickstarter:
Which is why I stated previously, that I'd almost be less annoyed if it simply fizzled out and the money disappeared. It's not the typical kickstarter failure, they did end up making something, just not what they said they would make, not in the time they said they would make it, and not for the people they said they would make it for. That's what is both bizarre and frustrating about this.
From their kickstarter:
and:
Which is why I stated previously, that I'd almost be less annoyed if it simply fizzled out and the money disappeared. It's not the typical kickstarter failure, they did end up making something, just not what they said they would make, not in the time they said they would make it, and not for the people they said they would make it for. That's what is both bizarre and frustrating about this.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
That’s a fair call. I do understand the frustration, and they really should not have said that.
…Mike
rumbliegeos
Well-known
My financial circumstances are far from supporting the use of digital M's, Hasselblads etc., although my interest in photography is high. When the weaknesses in the original Ferrania revival concept became clear, especially the focus on E-6 and the unforeseen technical and economic issues with the plant, I would have been very happy to have received a few rolls of their black and white in return for my Kickstarter contribution. However, I do not remember ever receiving a coherent offer to swap those rewards. Their Kickstarter communications about progress or non-progress with machines given cute nicknames seem particularly lame at this point.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I received an offer ... some years back now ... to obtain a dozen or half a dozen rolls of the P30 pre-release. Still have one left (as well as a couple of rolls of P30 from my last order of the production deliverable):
The one marked "ALPHA" was the prerelease product.
It's an excellent film. I honestly have no interest in the slide film, never did really. I just felt it worth some money to help support another film producer coming back to life. The B&W film they've released is excellent quality. I look forward to trying the new P33.
G
The one marked "ALPHA" was the prerelease product.
It's an excellent film. I honestly have no interest in the slide film, never did really. I just felt it worth some money to help support another film producer coming back to life. The B&W film they've released is excellent quality. I look forward to trying the new P33.
G