MikeL
Go Fish
Very nice thread. Reading your post Bill reminds me of a friend who worked with Apple. He felt one of their big mistakes was when they decreased their effort in the education market, and allowed Dell and others to move in. Train them when they are young.....
User M3 and M4 for this Joe.
Dogman said:
User M3 and M4 for this Joe.
larmarv916
Well-known
"Bill"....I like your historical overview of how both the "working" professionals changed mindset about equipment "tools" to get the job done in the photographic mission.
Also how dramaticly the internal management of Leica departed a 50+ year historical tradition. All for the insane idea that Leica should be a luxury brand to complement Hermes. As if really Leica was another form of jewlery for the Paris Hilton's of the dress to impress...JET SET. Leica did a deal with the Devil and that responsibility goes to the senior board members....No the everyday management and factory workers.
The real problem again comes back to the idea that the "value added" is no longer there. This is proven out by the fact that as much as Leica likes to pretend that they apperciate professional and customers. They have never really given back to customers over the years. Leica has never created an enviorment that is inclusive of normal everyday photography of it's customers.
Also now in a death struggle in a market where higher quality technology is drpooing price every day. Leica's hand is now being forced by the digital consumer demand to seek more afforadable products for people who have little or no background in photography.
As in Trius's posting that...Larry Towell is really concerned with the risk of losing his Tri-X film. I still think the Tokina business model and Zeiss's ZF and ZM lenses are really showing that the business is now splintering into lens makers and image capturing systems prividers. this is like watching the internet business shift from being a hosting company to the rise of the search engine companies....like Google over Microsoft and Yahoo.
There is a major business evoulation occuring while we speak. Cellphone are on the verge of outperforming traditional hand cameras and video is now making a bigger statement and seen by more people that traditional still images.
Read this mornings NY Times....Getty Images has now given in to the fact that they can no longer dictate prices or commerical access to advertisers world wide. That is why they have sold off control of the company to outside investors.
Now what I really want to know is what magic they expect pull off to somehow escape the cash flow crunch as sales move to lower levels. Solms just spent a tone of money putting in a new "clean room" air system just for helping reduce production related problems.
If Leica can not prove an ability to support it's "shooter's"...then what value can be seen by young photographers who are really looking for the fastest path to the finishing line of completed images.
So "Bill" how do you see this playing out. ??
Best Regards to ALL.......Laurance
Also how dramaticly the internal management of Leica departed a 50+ year historical tradition. All for the insane idea that Leica should be a luxury brand to complement Hermes. As if really Leica was another form of jewlery for the Paris Hilton's of the dress to impress...JET SET. Leica did a deal with the Devil and that responsibility goes to the senior board members....No the everyday management and factory workers.
The real problem again comes back to the idea that the "value added" is no longer there. This is proven out by the fact that as much as Leica likes to pretend that they apperciate professional and customers. They have never really given back to customers over the years. Leica has never created an enviorment that is inclusive of normal everyday photography of it's customers.
Also now in a death struggle in a market where higher quality technology is drpooing price every day. Leica's hand is now being forced by the digital consumer demand to seek more afforadable products for people who have little or no background in photography.
As in Trius's posting that...Larry Towell is really concerned with the risk of losing his Tri-X film. I still think the Tokina business model and Zeiss's ZF and ZM lenses are really showing that the business is now splintering into lens makers and image capturing systems prividers. this is like watching the internet business shift from being a hosting company to the rise of the search engine companies....like Google over Microsoft and Yahoo.
There is a major business evoulation occuring while we speak. Cellphone are on the verge of outperforming traditional hand cameras and video is now making a bigger statement and seen by more people that traditional still images.
Read this mornings NY Times....Getty Images has now given in to the fact that they can no longer dictate prices or commerical access to advertisers world wide. That is why they have sold off control of the company to outside investors.
Now what I really want to know is what magic they expect pull off to somehow escape the cash flow crunch as sales move to lower levels. Solms just spent a tone of money putting in a new "clean room" air system just for helping reduce production related problems.
If Leica can not prove an ability to support it's "shooter's"...then what value can be seen by young photographers who are really looking for the fastest path to the finishing line of completed images.
So "Bill" how do you see this playing out. ??
Best Regards to ALL.......Laurance
Tom Diaz
Well-known
Peter_Jones said:
On this I completely agree. May be a little OT on the rangefinder forum, but for the limited amount of SLR shooting I need to do I bought a Digilux 3, and I already bought a 25mm Summilux. I would like to see more options in the 4/3 mount and would welcome more Leica-designed lenses, especially if made in Germany but also if made in the Panasonic plant. (The Summilux does live up to my expectations of what a "Leica" lens should deliver.)
35mmdelux
#Represent
mfunnell said:
this kind of problem orientation, rather than solution orientation, is exactly what got Lee fired. You prove my point.
many business types don't care why you cannot do something -- find the solution, make it happen or perish. This is business, where action/inaction has consequences, not a cookie sale.
Bill Gates took what never existed, put some windows on it and turned it into a fortune. This is the example I would follow, rather than handing out excuses why something cannot be done.
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mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
Actually, the history of that is a little more complex than you make out, and its not as if other windowing systems didn't exist at the time. But that's for another discussion.35mmdelux said:
What I'd like to know is how I can get over all that negativity of mine and come and work for you. With your go-get-'em attitude, no doubt you've managed to achieve sustainable nuclear fusion, work with systems that perform faultless natural language recognition and translation, and are putting the finishing touches on cures for cancer, the end of poverty and the achievement of world peace. All without producing a single CO2 molecule, and sequestering away all the stuff released in the past so it will never again cause us concern.
You've cracked the lot! There are no difficult problems, just carping negative attitudes. The power of being "solution oriented" rather than "problem oriented" solves all. Once you've Issued Instructions, banished negative thoughts and applied The Power of Positive Thinking, no problem will ever be difficult again.
If only I'd known.
...Mike
pfoto
Well-known
Often the board of an ailing company will bring in a "bad guy" to shake the place up and kick the deadwood out. They do this because they can't bring themselves to do it. It is possible that this happened with Leica and once Kaufmann kicks Lee out he explains to his employess that yes he was a bad boy but he made one or two good points and we should really try to learn from them. IMO Lee did what he was hired to do and was never a long-term CEO.
Wearing my Leica customer hat for a moment, I'm just so glad that I didn't buy an M8. However I did make the mistake of buying almost every current Leica ASPH lens and that was a very frustrating experience. When they work, the optics are marvellous but the quality of manufacture meant that every single one of them except one had to be either replaced or sent for service. In one case the replacement had to be sent back too. The service was so bad that I ended up sending them to an independent technician and paying for the privilege but now they work.
Lee has fired quite a number of middle managers inside the company. The terrible quality of the current products is presumably a reflection of management drift and low employee morale. Leica needs to get back to the mindset that Bill enumerates so well above, the production of durable, well made bodies and lenses. They need to do it quickly too. New customers will not tolerate paying top money for shoddy goods. The word will get around like it already has with Mercedes-Benz.
Wearing my Leica customer hat for a moment, I'm just so glad that I didn't buy an M8. However I did make the mistake of buying almost every current Leica ASPH lens and that was a very frustrating experience. When they work, the optics are marvellous but the quality of manufacture meant that every single one of them except one had to be either replaced or sent for service. In one case the replacement had to be sent back too. The service was so bad that I ended up sending them to an independent technician and paying for the privilege but now they work.
Lee has fired quite a number of middle managers inside the company. The terrible quality of the current products is presumably a reflection of management drift and low employee morale. Leica needs to get back to the mindset that Bill enumerates so well above, the production of durable, well made bodies and lenses. They need to do it quickly too. New customers will not tolerate paying top money for shoddy goods. The word will get around like it already has with Mercedes-Benz.
Bill Pierce
Well-known
"So "Bill" how do you see this playing out. ??"
Truth is I have no idea how Leica will fare in the future, but I certainly wish them well.
For all my gripes about the M8 (My first two bodies failed; the shutter/advance sounds and the frame lines leave a lot of room for improvement; lenses with strongly curved or bowed fields probably will be have to set up for a full frame or the smaller M8 frame, but not both, for best wide open performance, e.t.c.) it is a unique and useful camera. As a working stiff I am 99% digital. My 8x10 view uses film, but rarely gets used on a "professional" job. I need a variety of digital tools, and the M8, as a rangefinder, is a unique and useful tool. It also produces an exceptionally high quality image; you don't have to compromise quality just because you want to take advantage of it's unique features. Hopefully it will turn out to share the ruggedness and durability of its film brothers.
So, my love/hate relationship with Leica continues. I have no choice unless Canon, Nikon or somebody else gives me that choice.
Truth is I have no idea how Leica will fare in the future, but I certainly wish them well.
For all my gripes about the M8 (My first two bodies failed; the shutter/advance sounds and the frame lines leave a lot of room for improvement; lenses with strongly curved or bowed fields probably will be have to set up for a full frame or the smaller M8 frame, but not both, for best wide open performance, e.t.c.) it is a unique and useful camera. As a working stiff I am 99% digital. My 8x10 view uses film, but rarely gets used on a "professional" job. I need a variety of digital tools, and the M8, as a rangefinder, is a unique and useful tool. It also produces an exceptionally high quality image; you don't have to compromise quality just because you want to take advantage of it's unique features. Hopefully it will turn out to share the ruggedness and durability of its film brothers.
So, my love/hate relationship with Leica continues. I have no choice unless Canon, Nikon or somebody else gives me that choice.
Tuolumne
Mentor
Isn't it wierd that Leica didn't get the frame lines right on the M8? I mean, how hard can that be?
/T
/T
35mmdelux
#Represent
To me the M8 is a red herring. Its M predecessors were tweaked over the course of decades to acheive the high quality we have come to know. This is a process the M8 has not yet undergone.
As far as Lee is concerned, we do not really know what prompted the dismissal and probably never will. We can make conjectures and that is about it.
I will say that the board may be unreasonable, expecting anyone to come in and in the course of a couple years turnaround a flailing business model. However, anyone in business worth their salt would take a look at its financials and if they look dismal must take some type of action. Don't blame the soldiers if you lose the war, the general has to take this hit.
Ending world hunger, aids, and cancer can be acheived in our lifetime with enough resources and resolve. Sadly, today there is no resolve in the world to bring the necessary resources to bear on these issues.
Optimism springs eternal and is the only hope for mankind.
Best Regards All -
As far as Lee is concerned, we do not really know what prompted the dismissal and probably never will. We can make conjectures and that is about it.
I will say that the board may be unreasonable, expecting anyone to come in and in the course of a couple years turnaround a flailing business model. However, anyone in business worth their salt would take a look at its financials and if they look dismal must take some type of action. Don't blame the soldiers if you lose the war, the general has to take this hit.
Ending world hunger, aids, and cancer can be acheived in our lifetime with enough resources and resolve. Sadly, today there is no resolve in the world to bring the necessary resources to bear on these issues.
Optimism springs eternal and is the only hope for mankind.
Best Regards All -
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